Violent parts of OT?

[dollarian]

a muslim guy questioned me about violelent part of the Bible such as in the time of the conquest of Canaan.and the custom of jewish people at that time.welll,i answered that the purpose was to form a community which the Word born in flesh would enter the world.surely he weren’t satisfied with my answer.i think he would use violentspart of the Bible to defend islam
what are your thoughts about this problem?

 

[NotWorthy]

This is always a tough question. If you look at the whole story, you begin to see what God was trying to teach Israel. He instructed the Israelites to kiil the Canaanites because if they allowed them to co-exist the Canaanites would introduce their false gods (baal-worship) and pagan customs to the Israelites. Israel allowed some of them to live, inter-married with them, and this exact thing happened.

Lesson learned? As the Jews were interspersed with other people, they had to maintain their religious purity, or else the local customs that they would pick up would ruin their faith. Some of the dispersed Jews learned this - others didn’t.

The Christians, however, seemed to excell at this far better. They lived among the Roman (and Greek) people with all their pagan practices and maintained (for the most part) a spiritual purity that is amazing to see. Many of them were willing to die rather than to sacrifice to pagan gods. This example was also seen by the Jews in Maccabees.

So, how do you resolve this with your Muslim friend? I still don’t know. I feel that if God allowed innocent people to die for the sake of His first-born, Israel, then He probably has a reward for these innocents in the afterlife - or maybe a second-chance for a reward. This doesn’t help you Muslim friend, for he can justify the slaying of innocents with the same logic.

I wish I could have been of more assistance.

 

[Georgess]

While awaiting and looking forward to more learned answers, let me contribute my bit here

The beauty of the scriptures is to be able to see what a sharp edge the Word is …each sitaution being dealt with as it needed …not one blanket , impersonal (wicked ) rule that all ’ infidels ’ are to be dealt with in such and such a way …through forced conversions ( something never seen in The Word - God’s true nature of respect for the human will and dignity is what gets revealed )

Our modern day plague of mad cow disease might offer some insight into how sin had to be dealt with in O.T days - a virulent contagion that had to be dealt with effectivly , for self preservation- all those millions of cows that had to be burned and buried - for the infecting virus , like an agent from hell , that even heat could not destroy !)

In the O.T times too, the Israelites, the group whom God had chosen , to use against the massive contagion of demonic powers in other cultures - child sacrifice, immorality ,theft and wars ; yet , the Israelites ,through their own rebellion, became contaminated many times , that instead of serving as an antidote for the plague around them , they themselves become the carriers !

Sin , with its wickedness and hardness of hearts and all types of evil ways … that it could even have been, in many a case , that their destruction was an act of mercy where Israel also had to pay a terrible price - of having to be in war !

That is - until the powerful and effective weapon /medicine / vaccine , appeared - in The Incarnate Word - our Lord having brought the power of The Spirit , the awarenss that we, each of us …man , woman , young , old …we truly belong to our Lord …

that , through a life of holiness, focus on The Kingdom, we are to overcome the worldly ways … and even martyrdom when needed , so that even the unbelievers would see - there is SomeOne worth dying for ( not killing for) , for God is Our Father , Father of all , who want enemies to be loved ; telling His children to bless those who curse , to pray for those who persecute …

Yet, that element of rebellion is still here among the Chosen ones as well …falling away from faith , turning to man made idols of money, pleasure and worse …and we see the continuing judgements , in the forms of wars, atheism , communsim ( ? Islam ) and so on …

But we are not to be afraid …as our Lord tell us ’ I have overcome the world ’ …so shall we, with His help … He IS with us … to share our sorrows …to hold us in our fears …Mother Mary and all the many great and small saints , angels praying …

And today , Sunday, we get to participate in The Worship …with all of heaven …

to bring down graces , to cast out enemy strong holds of hatred and fears …to bring peace and joy to countless hearts !

Our God is an awesome God …and it is an awesome thing, to be in Our Lord’s priesthood !

 

[Mersenne]

This is always a tough question. If you look at the whole story, you begin to see what God was trying to teach Israel. He instructed the Israelites to kiil the Canaanites because if they allowed them to co-exist the Canaanites would introduce their false gods (baal-worship) and pagan customs to the Israelites. Israel allowed some of them to live, inter-married with them, and this exact thing happened.

They had to murder the Canaanites because they had different customs?

 

[rwoehmke]

You’re stuck because the Quran has a strong base in the Old Testament. Mohammad did not make it all up from scratch. I think you can talk till you are blue in the face, but when push comes to shove, the arguements for violence in the Old Testament will be the same as would be used to justify the violence used by some modern day Muslims to protect and spread their Faith…

 

[FightingFat]

Interesting…

If we take a look at Dei Verbum

CHAPTER IV
THE OLD TESTAMENT
14. In carefully planning and preparing the salvation of the whole human race the God of infinite love, by a special dispensation, chose for Himself a people to whom He would entrust His promises. First He entered into a covenant with Abraham (see Gen. 15:18) and, through Moses, with the people of Israel (see Ex. 24:8). To this people which He had acquired for Himself, He so manifested Himself through words and deeds as the one true and living God that Israel came to know by experience the ways of God with men. Then too, when God Himself spoke to them through the mouth of the prophets, Israel daily gained a deeper and clearer understanding of His ways and made them more widely known among the nations (see Ps. 21:29; 95:1-3; Is. 2:1-5; Jer. 3:17). The plan of salvation foretold by the sacred authors, recounted and explained by them, is found as the true word of God in the books of the Old Testament: these books, therefore, written under divine inspiration, remain permanently valuable. “For all that was written for our instruction, so that by steadfastness and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope” (Rom. 15:4).
15. The principal purpose to which the plan of the old covenant was directed was to prepare for the coming of Christ, the redeemer of all and of the messianic kingdom, to announce this coming by prophecy (see Luke 24:44; John 5:39; 1 Peter 1:10), and to indicate its meaning through various types (see 1 Cor. 10:12). Now the books of the Old Testament, in accordance with the state of mankind before the time of salvation established by Christ, reveal to all men the knowledge of God and of man and the ways in which God, just and merciful, deals with men. These books, though they also contain some things which are incomplete and temporary, nevertheless show us true divine pedagogy. (1) These same books, then, give expression to a lively sense of God, contain a store of sublime teachings about God, sound wisdom about human life, and a wonderful treasury of prayers, and in them the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way. Christians should receive them with reverence.
16. God, the inspirer and author of both Testaments, wisely arranged that the New Testament be hidden in the Old and the Old be made manifest in the New. (2) For, though Christ established the new covenant in His blood (see Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25), still the books of the Old Testament with all their parts, caught up into the proclamation of the Gospel, (3) acquire and show forth their full meaning in the New Testament (see Matt. 5:17; Luke 24:27; Rom. 16:25-26; 2 Cor. 14:16) and in turn shed light on it and explain it.

Could we say that from this it would seem that the purpose of the OT is to proclaim the coming of Jesus. Revelation of God’s ways, his message, his truth has been a gradual process, and those violent acts in the OT are merely man’s violent acts and man’s attempt to justify his own violence by doing what the Muslims are doing today? That is, granting themselves God’s justification? After all, these books are not, as the Qur’an, written by God, but by a historical person, telling the stories about the Jewish peoples history and origins, their struggles for survival.

The New Testament describes the fullness of God’s revelation to us through the gift of his Son. This is the important bit- God himself saying hey- look- you got it wrong boys, what I meant was that you should all be excellent to one another.

Just some thoughts of my own…What do you think?

 

[NotWorthy]

They had to murder the Canaanites because they had different customs?

No, and I’m sorry if I inferred that. The Canaanites were descended from Canaan, the son of Ham who shamed Noah after the flood. They turned away from worhshipping one God and took on many gods. They also took on other customs that would have been an abominable to God. They happened to be habitating in the land promised to Abraham and his descendents.

If they would have been allowed to co-exist with Israel, God knew that they would have brought this idol worship and their other detested beliefs into the Israeli culture. This proved to be true all throughout Judges. Even later on, Solomon, as he took on wives from other countries and tribes, allowed them to set up their pagan temples and offer up sacrifices. Later on, I believe it is in Chronicles, the King of Israel (the 10 northern tribes) performed a human sacrifice on his own son. This shows how much the Jewish faith had been watered down by absorbing the other customs of the foreign lands.

 

[Valke2]

a muslim guy questioned me about violelent part of the Bible such as in the time of the conquest of Canaan.and the custom of jewish people at that time.welll,i answered that the purpose was to form a community which the Word born in flesh would enter the world.surely he weren’t satisfied with my answer.i think he would use violentspart of the Bible to defend islam
what are your thoughts about this problem?

Tell him that if we were living 2,000 years ago or more, he might have a point. But it has been millenia since Jews relied on the anything in Torah to justify killing in the name of God. There is scripture and there is actions.

 

[Liberian]

Dollarian,

One thing I would say is that people have learned a bit of morality in the last three thousand five hundred years. It is a capital mistake to apply blindly the norms from the early Old Testament to the present day.

• Liberian

 

[Mersenne]

No, and I’m sorry if I inferred that. The Canaanites were descended from Canaan, the son of Ham who shamed Noah after the flood. They turned away from worhshipping one God and took on many gods. They also took on other customs that would have been an abominable to God. They happened to be habitating in the land promised to Abraham and his descendents.

If they would have been allowed to co-exist with Israel, God knew that they would have brought this idol worship and their other detested beliefs into the Israeli culture. This proved to be true all throughout Judges. Even later on, Solomon, as he took on wives from other countries and tribes, allowed them to set up their pagan temples and offer up sacrifices. Later on, I believe it is in Chronicles, the King of Israel (the 10 northern tribes) performed a human sacrifice on his own son. This shows how much the Jewish faith had been watered down by absorbing the other customs of the foreign lands.

That to me sounds like commiting genocide because some other group of people have different customs. In what way is it different?

 

[Crumpy]

It seems an earlier post got very close to the point, that it was God who sent the Israelites to war. You might say, “end of discussion.”

You don’t have to look for a general principle here, about going to war.

When it came to leaving Egypt, God could have ordered the captive Israelites to war against Egypt, but He did not. He had them released in a more powerful way.

God also gave King David the victory in battle many times. It was God in control.

It takes a lot of study and word-smithing to come up with a justification for a physical war, based on the Christian Bible. I’m no historian, but it seems to me that even the Crusades were wars to take back the Holy Land from the Muslims who had conquered it. They were not fundamentally imperialistic wars, as far as I can tell. Even modern Israel has shown a lot of tolerance for Muslims in Israel, something that is not generally reciprocated, obviously.

People do really stumble on the violent parts of the OT. They say, what kind of God is that? And what kind of God permits the Holocaust in World War II? don’t forget that these harsh realities of life, if nothing else, prove the existence of evil, and reinforce the need for Christianity and Christian living.

If everyone on earth were genuinely Christian, look how many problems would be solved.

When you look at the USSR or the Iraq under Saddam Hussein, you see very repressive governments, that “worked” in way, by smothering the sectarian and ethnic conflicts that exist in those societies.

Even a Christian world state would need police and prisons, no? until Christ comes? Only then will the good be separated from the evil. Come, Lord Jesus.

Scripture says that there WILL be wars and rumors of wars, and there will be great tribulation at the end, but it will be shortened, for the sake of the elect of God.

I don’t think any Christian is immune from confronting his or her own mortality, and the necessity, sometimes, to die for the faith. How often in these forums (I don’t know) do you see anybody concerned about missionaries? Every m-word that I see is “masturbation.”

 

[Mersenne]

When it came to leaving Egypt, God could have ordered the captive Israelites to war against Egypt, but He did not. He had them released in a more powerful way.

I don’t want to seem like a negative nancy again, but wasn’t that “more powerful way” slaughtering a bunch of innocent children?

 

[richardeekw]

Dear Dollarian
. When speaking to Muslims, we must share and understand how the Koran & Bible came to be.
a) Muslims believe that the Angel Gabriel dictated to Prophet Mohamed the contents of their Holy Book.
b) The christian Scriptures is “Inspsired” by God as the Primary Author who uses man in his full capacities to pass on :Religious Truths" to humanity.- Revelation is Process over time.- over around 2000 years.
.
My recommendation is that to read this excellent book:
“And God said What”
An Introduction to Biblical Literary Forms for Bible Lovers, Paulist Press, N.J- L
Author Dr. Margaret Nutting Ralph PhD.
I was at one time disturbed by the “violence” in the O.T. writings. Now I can understand better, after study.

Moses – He had no Bible to read.
The great prophets - could not have read the early books of the Bible in the form we have them today.
Jesus’ first century disciples - could not have read the New Testament in the form we have today

Our Bible is the end product of a five-step process, which took approximately two thousand yearr.
-Events.
-Oral Tradition - interpretation of these events and the Mighty works of God, passed on over generations.
Written Tradition - some teachings, poems, narratives etc…
Editing / Compilation / Redaction
Canonical. - as determined by the “Church”
It is the result of the members of the believing community of each generation reflecting on the experience of God acting in their midst and passing on their reflections to the next generation.

The Infinite God revealed itself to finite human beings .:
This revelation is NOT done through dictation to a chosen individual;BUT through mighty acts in events in the midst of the community.

The acts occurred over a period of about 2000 years.STARTING with Abraham, who lived around 1850 B.C.E. andENDING with the close of the 1st century, after Jesus’ resurrection.

Throughout history God acted in the lives of the people.

Throughout the different periods of history, God prepared the people to receive, to know and to understand the unbelievable depth of God’s love, which was fully revealed in Jesus Christ.
After Jesus’ resurrection, revelation through events continued.
Through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the early Church continued to experience God’s self-revelation through events. The community (“People of God”) reflected on their experiences and continued to pass on their insights to their contemporaries and to their descendants.
In the O.T. - Belief in the After-Life,heaven & hell, is not understood until nearer to the Coming of Jesus.

The Hebrew Scriptures - TThe initial understanding in their writings is that God loves Israel and not the other Nations. It is only in the fullness of revelation in the N.T. that we can fully understand that “God is Love” - through the teaching of Jesus.

Hope this helps
Richard
Singapore

 

[NotWorthy]

That to me sounds like commiting genocide because some other group of people have different customs. In what way is it different?

God punished Israel for turning against His Ways. Maybe God used Israel to punish the Canaanites for turning against His Ways. Once again, the Canaanites came from Canaan who is the son of Ham, who was one of the eight that were saved by the flood. So they went from being religiously pure to the worship of false gods.

Again this logic could be shared by any religious fanatic that wishes to claim “divine right” to rid the world of the “unpure”, whoever they should be in the eyes of the “righteous”.

 

[Mersenne]

So they went from being religiously pure to the worship of false gods.

Again this logic could be shared by any religious fanatic that wishes to claim “divine right” to rid the world of the “unpure”, whoever they should be in the eyes of the “righteous”.

Okay, I get it, so it isn’t any different. It’s the exact logic any genocidal maniac uses “they worship the wrong thing therefore we have to kill them and rape their women” Wonderful moral guide.

 

[NotWorthy]

Okay, I get it, so it isn’t any different. It’s the exact logic any genocidal maniac uses “they worship the wrong thing therefore we have to kill them and rape their women” Wonderful moral guide.

No, maybe you don’t get it. One incident is by the order of God, the genocidal maniac is the act of someone who often thinks he’s god.

 

[Mersenne]

No, maybe you don’t get it. One incident is by the order of God, the genocidal maniac is the act of someone who often thinks he’s god.

No, I think I fully grasp the staggering differences between someone who slaughters children and rapes women because an imaginary old man in the clouds tells him to, and someone who slaughters children and rapes women because a real old man in the cloud tells him to. I personally feel that genocide is always wrong, even if you’re really really sure the voices in your head are “real”. I don’t know how many Andrea Yates or 9/11s we have to have before people figure that out.

 

[Valke2]

No, I think I fully grasp the staggering differences between someone who slaughters children and rapes women because an imaginary old man in the clouds tells him to, and someone who slaughters children and rapes women because a real old man in the cloud tells him to. I personally feel that genocide is always wrong, even if you’re really really sure the voices in your head are “real”. I don’t know how many Andrea Yates or 9/11s we have to have before people figure that out.

amen.

 

[Valke2]

Nothing poisons religion like certainty.

 

[antimon]

muslims use Quran to justify violence, we can’t use Bible in the same way. If God really called me to war, I would go (If I was as faithful as I thought ), but I wouldn’t go kill someone just because there are some passages in OT where God commanded Jews to go to war or where God struck someone.