Violent Qur'an passages

[expounder]

My friend, if you want to study any religion in an intellectually honest fashion [and I hope that’s your intention], you must take the context of verses into account. Not only the immediate context of the verses before and after, but also the historical context; when was such-and-such verse revealed? to whom was it addressing? under what circumstance(s) did it apply? etc.

We can dialogue on Qur’anic verses if you want, but in order to do so, you’re going to have to do better than merely copying/pasting a few verses, ripped bleeding out their respective contexts and all the while making no effort to exegete them. Besides, anyone can make a religious text appear to be a dreadful book of intolerance if you cherry pick verses and ignore the context.

+1, let’s all, including myself, make the intention of not reading verses out of context

 

[jakasaki]

The Quran would have been a better book to read if it was written in chronological order.

But it’s not - it’s all over the place

 

[manualman]

My friend, if you want to study any religion in an intellectually honest fashion [and I hope that’s your intention], you must take the context of verses into account. Not only the immediate context of the verses before and after, but also the historical context; when was such-and-such verse revealed? to whom was it addressing? under what circumstance(s) did it apply? etc.

We can dialogue on Qur’anic verses if you want, but in order to do so, you’re going to have to do better than merely copying/pasting a few verses, ripped bleeding out their respective contexts and all the while making no effort to exegete them. Besides, anyone can make a religious text appear to be a dreadful book of intolerance if you cherry pick verses and ignore the context.

Thanks for the response. The counter response I often hear is that the Islamic argument actually gets weaker when you do this. What I’ve heard is that the Quran is not in chronological order and passages must be understood according to chronology since later passages often abrogate earlier ones. True or not true?

Assuming true, the argument goes that Muhammed’s LATER passages (I forget if that is Mecca or Medina) are actually MORE violent and that the peaceful messages are more typically from the earlier period. In the earlier period, Muhammed was in a precarious position and vulnerable to attacks. In the later, his support base was solid and he waged war on his enemies. Fair characterization?

Given that it’s awfully hard for a casual reader to know whether a particular surah has been aborgated by a later one or not, isn’t it more useful to look at the life and behavior of Muhammed himself as a measuring stick for Islam? Does Islam not hold Muhammed up at the pinnacle example of a man submitted to the will of Allah?

If that is true, shouldn’t it trouble people to see him ordering slaughter and domination in his later years? Shouldn’t it bother us that he seems to have some bitterness towards the Jews? Shouldn’t it bother us that he seems to view women as possessions rather than people? Shouldn’t it bother us that the trajectory of his life goes from peaceful religious leader to violent warlord instead of the reverse?

I don’t mean to pick a fight, but I’m not a big fan. Sorry, the above is just WHY I’m not a fan. If I’ve picked up erroneous ideas somewhere, please point out where and I’ll listen.

 

[LtTony]

That is simply because the verses were revealed to him on the current situation of Muhammad (SAW). Obviously during the latter days of his life, he was involved in much more military conflict, so your hypothesis comes as no surprise…

Didn’t surprise me. I tried to convey that when I mentioned his rise in power. Still, the tone of later verses are much more intolerant of non-muslims in general. They imply Mohammad and his followers were much less inclined to get along with their neighbors. It tells me that Mohammad was a false prophet, and a bandit seeking power and some wealth. Sorry. I know you think otherwise. But I have seen and read enough that nothing you can post is going to change that impression.

I think we have all seen the errors in translation, especially in foreign countries-on signs. This is why muslims believe the Qur’an is best read in arabic, this way there is no way for misunderstandings and errors to creep in.

Here’s another shortcoming in the claims of Islam: what you say here wouldn’t be thecase of the Koran were a miraculous book straight from God. There’s nothing special about it, or at least nothing more than any other religious document.

 

[expounder]

The Quran would have been a better book to read if it was written in chronological order.

But it’s not - it’s all over the place

Pam this is all for you, i do hope you read all of it.

One of our brothers/sisters has asked this question:
The Quran has a Order, Beginning and Ending, as Allah has stated in Al Baqarah Verse185, Al Furqan, verse32, Al Hijr Verse 91- 93, It is also clear that this chronological order was not meant to be changed, in order to prevent verses from being taken out of context and giving rise to different interpretations hence the different sects. Why is it that no scholar addresses this flaw and put the Quran back into the correct chronological order? The Book version of the Quran was compiled much later after the Prophet Mohammad’s death and that is when Verses and were moved around and order changed. I have conducted a great deal of research in other areas as well and I note that scholars tend to either ignore or simply don’t comprehend certain discrepancies, either way they have a systematic monopoly over what they want an average person to understand or not. One more thing if Judaism and Christianity turn out to be fake religions or simply man made then wouldn`t that automatically forfeit and debunk Islam as well? I have a lot of other valid questions which need to be adderessed. With the grace of Allah, I tend to destroy Riba, the Sects and remove the lies from the truth.
(There may be some grammatical and spelling errors in the above statement. The forum does not change anything from questions, comments and statements received from our readers for circulation in confidentiality.)
Answer:
Chronological order of quran compilation
In the name of Allah, We praise Him, seek His help and ask for His forgiveness. Whoever Allah guides none can misguide, and whoever He allows to fall astray, none can guide them aright. We bear witness that there is no one (no idol, no person, no grave, no prophet, no imam, no dai, nobody!) worthy of worship but Allah Alone, and we bear witness that Muhammad (saws) is His slave-servant and the seal of His Messengers.
Your Statement: The Quran has a Order, Beginning and Ending, as Allah has stated in Al Baqarah Verse185, Al Furqan, verse32, Al Hijr Verse 91- 93,
Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 2 Surah Baqarah verse 185: Ramadan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur’an as a guide to mankind also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (between right and wrong). So everyone of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting but if anyone is ill or on a journey the prescribed period (should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you He does not want to put you to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful.
Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 25 Surah Furqan verse 32: Those who reject Faith say: “Why is not the Qur’an revealed to him all at once?” Thus (is it revealed) that We may strengthen thy heart thereby and We have rehearsed it to thee in slow well-arranged stages gradually.
Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 15 Surah Hijr verses 91-93:
91 (So also on such) as have made the Qur’an into shreds (as they please).
92 Therefore by thy Lord, We will of a surety call them to account
93 For all their deeds.

source: islamhelpline.com/node/2911

 

[expounder]

Dear and Beloved Brother in Islam, the Quran that we have in our midst today, is in the exact same format, and each Surah and each verse arranged in the exact same manner as commanded by Allah Subhanah and recited by the Messenger of Allah (saws). Whenever a verse or Surah of the Holy Quran was revealed, the Messenger of Allah (saws) would command that it be documented and gave precise instructions where exactly the verse and the Surah was to be placed. This process of arranging the Surahs and verses in their exact location was commanded by the Messenger of Allah (saws) under the guidance of Allah Subhanah.
Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 75 Surah Qiyaamah verses 17-18: (O Prophet) It is upto Us to have it (the Quran) collected and read! Therefore, when We are reciting it, listen to its recital carefully.
Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 15 Surah Al Hijr verse 9: It is We (Allah), Who has sent down this Quran, and We will assuredly guard it (against corruption).
Time and time again the Messenger of Allah (saws) recited the Glorious Quran in public in the prayers, and in the last year of his life he (saws) recited the Quran in full and twice to Hadrat Jibrael (a.s.) exactly verbatim and in the same format which is available amongst us today.
Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 4.819 Narrated by Aisha
Once Fatima came walking and her gait resembled the gait of the Prophet(saws) . The Prophet (saws) said, “Welcome, O my daughter!” Then he made her sit on his right or on his left side, and then he told her a secret, and she started weeping. I asked her, “Why are you weeping?” He again told her a secret and she started laughing. I said, “I never saw happiness so near to sadness as I saw today.” I asked her what the Prophet (saws) had told her. She said, “I would never disclose the secret of Allah’s Apostle (saws) .” When the Prophet (saws) died, I asked her about it. She replied: "The Prophet (saws) said, ‘Every year Gabriel used to revise the Qur’an with me once only, but this year he has done so twice. I think this portends my death, and you will be the first of my family to follow me.’ So I started weeping. Then he said. ‘Don’t you like to be the mistress of all the ladies of Paradise or the mistress of all the lady believers? So I laughed for that.’ "
Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 6.520 Narrated by Abu Huraira
Gabriel used to repeat the recitation of the Qur’an with the Prophet (saws) once a year, but he repeated it twice with him in the year he died.
Hadrat Jibrael (a.s.) used to revise the Quran, in the format that we have today, with the Prophet (saws), and this exact format was taught by the Prophet (saws) to the believers. This compilation of arranging the Surahs and verses as we recite them today, is done not only with the knowledge of the Prophet (saws), but it was done with the knowledge and under the guidance of the All Knowing, All Wise, Allah Subhanah.
The wisdom behind the revelation and then the compilation of the Glorious Quran in a different sequence than its chronological sequence of revelation was because when it was first revealed, it was revealed to one man (The Messenger of Allah (saws)), and his main audience were the disbelievers and polytheists of the Quraish. But when the revelations were complete, and an Islamic State had been formed in Medina with a multitude of believers; the Glorious Quran was to be a Book of Guidance for all of mankind, until the end of time! The All Knowing, All Wise Allah has chosen this form of arrangement as the best way for the guidance of all mankind!
Thus, my dear and beloved brother in Islam, the Quran that we have in our midst today is neither compiled without the precise knowledge of Allah and His Messenger (saws), nor was it ever supposed to be arranged in the chronological sequence of revelation. Allah Subhanah Himself declares in His Glorious Quran that it is upto Him to reveal the Quran, upto Him to compile the Quran, and upto to Him to guard it against any corruption whatsoever.
Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 75 Surah Qiyaamah verses 17-18: (O Prophet) It is upto Us to have it (the Quran) collected and read! Therefore, when We are reciting it, listen to its recital carefully.
This is the precise reason, that regardless of which sect of Islam the muslims claim they belong to, each and every sect in Islam without exception believe in the exact same Quran. No sect in Islam, regardless of their differences between one sect and the other, and regardless of however misguided their beliefs and ‘aqeedah’ might be, ever claim to follow the Quran in a different format than the one that is available amongst mankind today. Not even an alphabet of the Glorious Quran, leave alone a word, or a verse or a Surah is ever disputed as being omitted, or in the wrong place, or in the wrong sequence in the Glorious Quran!
Al-Tirmidhi Hadith 173 Narrated by Abdullah ibn Umar
Allah’s Messenger (saws) said: 'Verily the Ummah of Muhammad, will not agree on error; and the hand of Allah is upon the community; he who sets himself apart from it will be set apart in Hell Fire.

 

[aball1035]

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.
Qur’an 2:190
To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid.
Qur’an 22:39
Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).
Qur’an 4:90
But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).
Qur’an 8:61

These verses allow us to fight but only in the way of Allah. We also have something very similar to the Just War Theory and you’d find the Jewish and Christian scripture, shows a similar variety of attitudes to war.

So how do these peaceful verses “interact” with the violent ones? How do people view each?

 

[LtTony]

The Quran would have been a better book to read if it was written in chronological order.

But it’s not - it’s all over the place

Exactly. It is a painful and tedious read. I have tried.

Thanks for the response. The counter response I often hear is that the Islamic argument actually gets weaker when you do this. What I’ve heard is that the Quran is not in chronological order and passages must be understood according to chronology since later passages often abrogate earlier ones. True or not true?

Assuming true, the argument goes that Muhammed’s LATER passages (I forget if that is Mecca or Medina) are actually MORE violent and that the peaceful messages are more typically from the earlier period. In the earlier period, Muhammed was in a precarious position and vulnerable to attacks. In the later, his support base was solid and he waged war on his enemies. Fair characterization?

Given that it’s awfully hard for a casual reader to know whether a particular surah has been aborgated by a later one or not, isn’t it more useful to look at the life and behavior of Muhammed himself as a measuring stick for Islam? Does Islam not hold Muhammed up at the pinnacle example of a man submitted to the will of Allah?

If that is true, shouldn’t it trouble people to see him ordering slaughter and domination in his later years? Shouldn’t it bother us that he seems to have some bitterness towards the Jews? Shouldn’t it bother us that he seems to view women as possessions rather than people? Shouldn’t it bother us that the trajectory of his life goes from peaceful religious leader to violent warlord instead of the reverse?

I don’t mean to pick a fight, but I’m not a big fan. Sorry, the above is just WHY I’m not a fan. If I’ve picked up erroneous ideas somewhere, please point out where and I’ll listen.

Another exactly. One that bears repeating.

 

[expounder]

Didn’t surprise me. I tried to convey that when I mentioned his rise in power. Still, the tone of later verses are much more intolerant of non-muslims in general. They imply Mohammad and his followers were much less inclined to get along with their neighbors. It tells me that Mohammad was a false prophet, and a bandit seeking power and some wealth. Sorry. I know you think otherwise. But I have seen and read enough that nothing you can post is going to change that impression.

Here’s another shortcoming in the claims of Islam: what you say here wouldn’t be thecase of the Koran were a miraculous book straight from God. There’s nothing special about it, or at least nothing more than any other religious document.

You’ve told me all i need to know.
You’re like a dog, he barks loudly, but when a human talks to him he understands none of it, but is only interested in what is on its own mind
(don’t take it so literally, you’re not a dog )
So you are welcome to talk to anyone but me because i don’t like wasting time
peace

 

[expounder]

So how do these peaceful verses “interact” with the violent ones? How do people view each?

All in different stages of Jihad.

1. Do what you must to defend Islam, confiding with the laws of war.
   2)When there is no longer a threat i.e. the enemy surrenders/is defeated all fighting must stop and peace should be restored.

It is as you Christians say the lesser of two evils to bring about the greater good.

 

[LtTony]

This process of arranging the Surahs and verses in their exact location was commanded by the Messenger of Allah (saws) under the guidance of Allah Subhanah.

Never heard this before. Heard some other explanations from Muslims on the order of the Koran, but not this. I think a non-muslim familiar with Koranic studies – and there are few – could make a pretty good argument against it.

 

[Celtic_Maiden]

I’ve seen a few passages (below) in the Qur’an that indicate violence. Is this in a certain context, such as stories in the Old Testament in the Bible, or misinterpretations (if so, are there different translations of the Qur’an?), or does Islam really promote violence?

2:191-”Kill them (unbelievers) wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you, for persecution is worse than slaughter…. Such is the reward of those who reject faith.”

2:193-”Fight against them (unbelievers) until there is no dissension, and the religion is for Allah.”

4:89-”"Seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”

47:4-”Therefore, when you meet the unbelievers smite their necks, then, when you have killed many of them, tie the bonds…. As for those who are killed in the Way of Allah, he will not let their works to go astray.”

48:28-29-”It is he who has sent his messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, so that he exalts it above all other religions. Allah is the sufficient witness. Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. Those who are with him are harsh against the unbelievers but merciful to one another.”

Lets not live in Disneyland we only have to read the News, Egypt at the moment , a Country that was tolerant and Christian and Moslem used to get along, but now Church’s are being burnt, Christians are being killed, violence is the order of the day, the same in Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, and Christians are being driven out of there own Country and killed all for being a Christian, the Holy Land the same, even in Saudi Arabia, NO Church is ever given permission to be built- hence no Church not even 1 in Saudi Arabia. What does this tell us, Christianity teaches tolerance, we don’t go around kidnapping Mullah’s like the two Orthodox priests that were kidnapped, then Moslems after blowing up Airplanes, and the Twin Towers, planting bombs in Boston etc., Moslems us tell you that they are peaceful, if this is peace I would hate to see what they mean by violence.

No other Religion kills there own members if they wish to leave, as we believe in the 10 Commandments, and they don’t - Muhammad remember was a very violent man, one only has to look at Syria, they kill there own as well. There yardstick is Muhammad whatever he did they do. He was anti Jewish, anti Christian, and he cursed them on many occasions, the Moslem religion is made up of some Jewish/Christianity and some of there own, and only got more members by saying change your religion or be killed.

To get a better insight really everyone should read the new book out by Robert Spencer called “Not peace But a Sword” for anyone who wants to understand Christianity and Islam.
well if this there idea of peaceful, I would hate to see them violent.

 

[LtTony]

You’ve told me all i need to know.
You’re like a dog, he barks loudly, but when a human talks to him he understands none of it, but is only interested in what is on its own mind
(don’t take it so literally, you’re not a dog )
So you are welcome to talk to anyone but me because i don’t like wasting time
peace

Oh, I understand. Don’t bark, either. You are of the mistaken idea that when someone disagrees with you they are stupid, or ignorant or uneducated or like an animal that is incapable of reading or something. I was just being honest.

Whenever I interact with someone on an internet forum, I always try to approach the discussion with the thought that the other person just could be right. Heck, sometimes they are; most often we both are. But I have also come to the conclusion that there is very, very little chance Mohammad was. Catholic Answers runs a what I would call a highly moderated forum, but there is much more give and take here than I have ever experienced at any other muslim forum. Sorry if the give and take bothers you. That sort of thing is usually good for a person.

As far as who I talk to, I will continue to respond to your posts if they are compelling enough – not that I’m trying to convince you of anything, either. I’m just trying to provide counter-arguments so that readers you truely are open can get both sides. If you chose not to reply, that is your perogative. But I sincerely am sorry if I offended you. As I said, just being honest.

 

[kimg901]

So if your leaders were to say “All muslims must fight and kill all infidels for not believing in islam because Allah commands it”, would you take up arms Ex or any other muslim here?

 

[Reuben_J]

I’ve seen a few passages (below) in the Qur’an that indicate violence. Is this in a certain context, such as stories in the Old Testament in the Bible, or misinterpretations (if so, are there different translations of the Qur’an?), or does Islam really promote violence?

2:191-”Kill them (unbelievers) wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you, for persecution is worse than slaughter…. Such is the reward of those who reject faith.”

2:193-”Fight against them (unbelievers) until there is no dissension, and the religion is for Allah.”

4:89-”"Seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”

47:4-”Therefore, when you meet the unbelievers smite their necks, then, when you have killed many of them, tie the bonds…. As for those who are killed in the Way of Allah, he will not let their works to go astray.”

48:28-29-”It is he who has sent his messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, so that he exalts it above all other religions. Allah is the sufficient witness. Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. Those who are with him are harsh against the unbelievers but merciful to one another.”

That these verses were revealed to Mohammad and beome part of the teaching of Islam, will no doubt in my opinion, is giving a way for the Muslims to justify killing when needs be. These kind of verses is better seen as a comparison between Jesus and Mohammad and their teaching respectively.

 

[drac16]

Peace be with you,

Since you said a lot of things I’d like to respond to, I’ll have to chop up your post and address each statement individually.

Thanks for the response. The counter response I often hear is that the Islamic argument actually gets weaker when you do this. What I’ve heard is that the Quran is not in chronological order and passages must be understood according to chronology since later passages often abrogate earlier ones. True or not true?.

Yeah, it’s true that the surahs in the Qur’an are not placed in chronological order. Do later passages abrogate earlier ones? I wouldn’t say so. The earlier revelations were mainly to do with spiritual lessons; verses about Allah’s oneness, His Sovereignty, the notion that there’s only one God, etc.

Many verses that were revealed after the early Meccan ones did have something to do with violence, so why weren’t these verses revealed earlier? because when the muslims were forced to leave Mecca, their backs were against the wall and they were on the verge of exctinction. Allah permitted them to fight; physical fighting is not the first thing one should do, but it is permissible when necessary.

Assuming true, the argument goes that Muhammed’s LATER passages (I forget if that is Mecca or Medina) are actually MORE violent and that the peaceful messages are more typically from the earlier period. In the earlier period, Muhammed was in a precarious position and vulnerable to attacks. In the later, his support base was solid and he waged war on his enemies. Fair characterization?

Well, one of the reasons the early Meccan verses are not-so-violent is because of the circumstances the muslims were in. In the early Meccan days, they didn’t have entire tribes hunting them down, seeking to eliminate them one by one. They were certainly persecuted, but it was roughly 12 years after Muhammad’s first revelation that the muslims were forced to leave Mecca because the persecution was so severe.

Moreover, any religion worth its salt has to have a theological foundation, so the early Meccan revelations largely dealt with those topics (Judgment Day, God’s Oneness, Heaven, Hell, man’s accountability, etc). Why would God reveal verses about warfare in a time when it wasn’t absolutely necessary?

Given that it’s awfully hard for a casual reader to know whether a particular surah has been aborgated by a later one or not, isn’t it more useful to look at the life and behavior of Muhammed himself as a measuring stick for Islam? Does Islam not hold Muhammed up at the pinnacle example of a man submitted to the will of Allah??

I don’t know where you’re getting the notion that *entire surahs *were abrogated-- it’s not something I’ve ever heard. Could you please tell me what surah(s) you’re referring to? No doubt, it is useful to study Seerah literature, which are books about the Prophet’s life, but that’s not equal to the words of Allah (which, according to our understanding, is the Qur’an).

It’s definitely important for a muslim to know how Muhammad [peace be upon him] lived his life, but it’s even more important to know what Allah says in the Qur’an.

If that is true, shouldn’t it trouble people to see him ordering slaughter and domination in his later years? Shouldn’t it bother us that he seems to have some bitterness towards the Jews? Shouldn’t it bother us that he seems to view women as possessions rather than people? Shouldn’t it bother us that the trajectory of his life goes from peaceful religious leader to violent warlord instead of the reverse???

What you’re doing here is a kin to getting a bunch of wet spaghetti noodles and, one by one, flinging them at the wall and hoping that one of them sticks. These are all misconceptions that can be ironed out upon sincere inquiry of the Qur’an, Hadith and Seerah.

 

[Reuben_J]

Many verses that were revealed after the early Meccan ones did have something to do with violence, so why weren’t these verses revealed earlier? because when the muslims were forced to leave Mecca, their backs were against the wall and they were on the verge of exctinction. Allah permitted them to fight; physical fighting is not the first thing one should do, but it is permissible when necessary.

I am sorry to hear that Muslims were on the verge of exctintion. How bad was the persecution of the Muslims at that time? Were they allowed to form a government or that they had to go underground to practice their faith with the possiblity of maybe being thrown to the lions or crucified on the cross if they were found to be practicing Muslims?

edit: Hi drac16. BTW, welcome to the forum. Peace.

 

[benjohnson]

That the violence in the passages Qur’an against the ‘unbeliever’ matches the modern violence of those that follow the Qur’an against the ‘unbeliever’ seems to indicate a correlation.

…

In the heart of the Christian world - in Rome, in Jerusalem and in Istanbul you have Mosques.

In the heart of the Muslim world - in Mecca, in Medina there are no churches.

…

If a Muslim goes to the Vatican - he is welcomed.

If a Christian goest to Mecca - what is is fate? Is he welcomed? Or is he treated as the devil?

 

[Sam_777]

The Quran would have been a better book to read if it was written in chronological order.

But it’s not - it’s all over the place

Yes, Quran never been written in a chronological order, because simply the whole Quran never written and assembled during Muhammed times (which is by itself is a big question mark!).

However, an Iraqi person came to Aisha during the Caliphs era (after Muhammed death) and asked her to show him her Quran to make his in a similar order, but she told him:
“What does it matter which part of it you read first?”
The full hadith in Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 61, Number 515.

 

[expounder]

Oh, I understand. Don’t bark, either. You are of the mistaken idea that when someone disagrees with you they are stupid, or ignorant or uneducated or like an animal that is incapable of reading or something. I was just being honest.

Whenever I interact with someone on an internet forum, I always try to approach the discussion with the thought that the other person just could be right. Heck, sometimes they are; most often we both are. But I have also come to the conclusion that there is very, very little chance Mohammad was. Catholic Answers runs a what I would call a highly moderated forum, but there is much more give and take here than I have ever experienced at any other muslim forum. Sorry if the give and take bothers you. That sort of thing is usually good for a person.

As far as who I talk to, I will continue to respond to your posts if they are compelling enough – not that I’m trying to convince you of anything, either. I’m just trying to provide counter-arguments so that readers you truely are open can get both sides. If you chose not to reply, that is your perogative. But I sincerely am sorry if I offended you. As I said, just being honest.

But I have seen and read enough that nothing you can post is going to change that impression.