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LtTony
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OK. Your point?
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LtTony
Guest
Exactly the sort of thing I was talking about. Thank you, Sam.Yes, Quran never been written in a chronological order, because simply the whole Quran never written and assembled during Muhammed times (which is by itself is a big question mark!).
However, an Iraqi person came to Aisha during the Caliphs era (after Muhammed death) and asked her to show him her Quran to make his in a similar order, but she told him:
“What does it matter which part of it you read first?”
The full hadith in Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 61, Number 515.
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drac16
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Ah, thank you-- it’s good to be here.
The early muslims were often insulted, beaten, tortured and, in some cases, even murdered. This was largely due to the fact that Mecca was, at the time, well known to be a place where pagans brought their idols to perform sets of rituals around [or at least near] the Ka’aba (a big, black box). What in Muhammad’s message was so offensive to the Meccans? well, it was Monotheism, first of all. The pagans were polytheists
Moreover, Muhammad taught that the real God is unlike His creation and has no images (see surah 112 of the Qur’an if you want to know exactly). This theology was the direct opposite of pagan beliefs, which said that their god’s prescense or escense was residing in their idols. A god of clay or wood is no god at all. Martin Lings has a great book about Muhammad’s life and he talks about this early persecution in chapters 18-29.
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NoSurrender
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Actually A carved Statue possessed by a demon is to a pagan a god.Ah, thank you-- it’s good to be here.
The early muslims were often insulted, beaten, tortured and, in some cases, even murdered. This was largely due to the fact that Mecca was, at the time, well known to be a place where pagans brought their idols to perform sets of rituals around [or at least near] the Ka’aba (a big, black box). What in Muhammad’s message was so offensive to the Meccans? well, it was Monotheism, first of all. The pagans were polytheists
Moreover, Muhammad taught that the real God is unlike His creation and has no images (see surah 112 of the Qur’an if you want to know exactly). This theology was the direct opposite of pagan beliefs, which said that their god’s prescense or escense was residing in their idols. A god of clay or wood is no god at all. Martin Lings has a great book about Muhammad’s life and he talks about this early persecution in chapters 18-29.
Look at shamanism and the witch doctors of Africa, the Rise of witchcraft across Europe in the Middle ages, etc. etc.
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manualman
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Thanks, I really was trying to non-belligerently list arguments against the validity of Islam that I’ve previously found compelling so that they could be addressed by someone in a position to do so. I appreciate you giving it a go.
Mea Culpa on the “surah” miscue on my part. I get the terminology scrambled.
Do I understand you correctly that in the event of an apparent contradiction in teaching that an earlier Quran teaching is NOT abrogated by a later one? You hear this a lot out there, where’s it coming from?
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Skadi
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Talk to me about Islam being violent when your own god no longer commits mass genocide and orders the extermination of entire peoples, like what he ordered the jews to do to the people of Jericho.
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manualman
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Um, did you have some good friends at Jericho?
With our human limitations, you or I could never be qualified to judge an entire city. God has no such limitations. I find it sad that the same sorts of people who presume to judge God for “allowing” things like the Holocaust denounce Him on the occasions when He HAS interfered in the events of human history in order to establish his own plan for salvation.
You and I are priviledged to live in a civilization and era in which there is a great deal of good in our culture. We are arrogant to assume all cultures are this way. Even in the Old Testament, God indicates that He’d refrain from destroying a city if His prophet (I forget which) could find even a tiny number of honorable men. And the future is now for God. He knew the decisions and future sins of every man woman and child in those cities that He doomed. If they were ordered to be destroyed, then every last one of them was doomed to self destruction in any case. Humans cannot make such judgements. God can.
Thankfully, that is an era of salvation history that is in the past. Not because God changed, but because man has. We’ve been changed by the progressively greater revelation of God to us culminating in Jesus and nothing will ever be the same as it was before.
The problem of Islam is that the killing doesn’t mark the beginning of Allah’s revelation to mankind, but the END of it. Muhammed is (to muslims) the ultimate example of a holy man and yet he was a warlord. That’s a tough spot for decent and honorable muslims to wiggle their way out of! Christians have far less a problem in that regard because Jesus, as the incarnation of God himself, carries no baggage in his own behavior that needs to be explained away by his modern day followers (much less any horrific examples that midguided modern day followers can cite as reasons for their own aggression).
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jakasaki
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I said it in post #3 - watch this thread turn into “violent Bible passages”.
Please don’t change the topic of the OT.
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openmind77
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I am curious - what exactly is the purpose of such a thread as this, if not to compare the other religion with the Catholic faith?
Is it merely to point out some failings in another religion and feel good about your faith (without any reference to similar issues with your own)?
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manualman
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I realize you aren’t talking to me, but my post #46 addresses your question.
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Skadi
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This is the thing i really disagree with Christians on here, You see God as above right and wrong (or more accurately, whatever he does is right).
Im not pacifist at all, there are many times violence is justified, but christians claim to be lead by a god of peace and love and yet he orders the killing of thousands of innocents, whose only crime is following the religion they were born into. How is that loving of his creation?
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kimg901
Guest
Uh, men do these things in the name of God, not God himself.
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jakasaki
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Read the forum rules. - stick to the title of the thread.
The poster could have posted "violent quran passages & violent Biblical passages.
Then in this case - both need to be discussed.
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Skadi
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Oh there are alot of things men do in gods name, but there are bible passages of God commanding some pretty crazy stuff.
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jakasaki
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Topic Is violent quran passages - why do you insist on changing the topic.
I didn’t change the topic on your “pagan” thread.
Read the rules of CAF
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Skadi
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I was responding to someones reply to my comment.
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dronald
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So far in four pages no one has quoted Surah 9:29 so here it is:
Qur’an 9:29—Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
The interesting thing about this Surah is that it actually gives context. Muslims must fight Christians and Jews until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.
Basically if you go to a country with a Muslim majority, the Q and A would look something like this:
Q: When should Muslims fight Christians and Jews?
A: Until they pay the Jizyah and feel themselves subdued.
Remember, the Quran is an book that has existed eternally. Some Muslims like to claim historical context and make it seem less violent, but in this particular Surah the context is given in this eternal book that predates humanity.
Also, my second favourite is the hadith, which is considered authoritative by all Muslims:
Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 791:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
I heard Allah’s Apostle [Muhammad] saying, "The Jews will fight with you, and you will be given victory over them so that a stone will say, ‘O Muslim! There is a Jew behind me; kill him!’ "
Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
Allah’s Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O ‘Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.’ "
Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6981:
Ibn 'Umar reported Allah’s Messenger [Muhammad] (may peace be upon him) as saying: You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me); kill him.
Oh yes! I forgot to add that Surah 9 is accepted among all Muslim scholars to be one of the last revealed Surah’s in the Quran. God bless!
Qur’an 9:29—Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
The interesting thing about this Surah is that it actually gives context. Muslims must fight Christians and Jews until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.
Basically if you go to a country with a Muslim majority, the Q and A would look something like this:
Q: When should Muslims fight Christians and Jews?
A: Until they pay the Jizyah and feel themselves subdued.
Remember, the Quran is an book that has existed eternally. Some Muslims like to claim historical context and make it seem less violent, but in this particular Surah the context is given in this eternal book that predates humanity.
Also, my second favourite is the hadith, which is considered authoritative by all Muslims:
Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 791:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
I heard Allah’s Apostle [Muhammad] saying, "The Jews will fight with you, and you will be given victory over them so that a stone will say, ‘O Muslim! There is a Jew behind me; kill him!’ "
Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
Allah’s Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O ‘Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.’ "
Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6981:
Ibn 'Umar reported Allah’s Messenger [Muhammad] (may peace be upon him) as saying: You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me); kill him.
Oh yes! I forgot to add that Surah 9 is accepted among all Muslim scholars to be one of the last revealed Surah’s in the Quran. God bless!
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Augustine3
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I remember this Surah being used in a debate and the Muslim’s defence was the non-Muslims had broken the pact between them, hence they were commanded to retaliate. Whether that’s true or not I don’t know…
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dronald
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You’re actually thinking of Surah 9:5 which a Muslim may make that arguement for. However, this Surah applies specifically to the, “people of the book.” Ie: Christians and Jews. Surah 9:5 applies to Pagans of that time some Muslims will argue.
9:4(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.
9:5But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
You see?
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mathonihah
Guest
I can think of a lot more “violent” passages in the OT!
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