Violent thought?

[Flame4]

Hi everyone i have a question because I am having a hard time discern the morality of this. Alright so I write stories. I like to put my characters through pain. My questions is is it wrong to enjoy this? Now let me explain myself. I don’t really enjoy the character suffering but it gives other characters a chance to help them out and I like seeing that (I hope this is not confusing.) I’m just worried that thinking of these thoughts are wrong…

Please note that I would never think of doing this to a person in real life. I don’t even think of hurting people in real life.
It would be helpful if you could give me some quotes from the Catechism as well.

thanks for your help and God Bless.

 

[prstoessel]

Please note that I would never think of doing this to a person in real life. I don’t even think of hurting people in real life.

A teenager might make the same argument for playing violent video games (Grand Theft Auto, Mortal Kombat, etc).

Deriving pleasure from disordered acts, even if only in the mind, is disordered. It should be avoided.

 

[MrsNoahMoerbeek]

It would depend on your reasoning. For example, if your story is about a priest suffering this and that for Christ, and you’re trying to reveal his faith, perseverance, courage, etc through it, then no, I would say there’s no sin in there. If you’re deriving some sort of kinky pleasure out of what you’re writing, then you do need to stop and be sure to confess it, but if you’re trying to teach people virtuous behavior in tough times through your stories, then I wouldn’t worry.

 

[kbwall]

A teenager might make the same argument for playing violent video games (Grand Theft Auto, Mortal Kombat, etc).

Deriving pleasure from disordered acts, even if only in the mind, is disordered. It should be avoided.

Violent video games aren’t sinful.

 

[prstoessel]

Violent video games aren’t sinful.

Deriving disordered pleasure from them can be sinful.

 

[MrsNoahMoerbeek]

Well, one could argue that they are sinful. Christ says that the thought is equal, morally, to the action. Now, if the video game is cop vs. criminal, and the player is the cop, I wouldn’t think that would be wrong except for the fact that it’s a waste of time. If the player is the criminal, on the other hand, then it would probably be sinful. If we will give an account for every idle word we speak, it stands to reason that we will give an account for every idle action too.

 

[prstoessel]

Now, if the video game is cop vs. criminal, and the player is the cop, I wouldn’t think that would be wrong

Anything, regardless of its context or origin, that gives the mind an opportunity to cultivate and/or foster disordered pleasure should be avoided. If you write a book to put your characters through pain for the underlying purpose of disordered pleasure, then you shouldn’t do that.

Listening to music, playing video games, watching television, writing/reading books, etc. are all small, subtle activities that can contribute to our disordered pleasure without us even know it. Recognizing it for what it is and making a conscience decision to avoid it, so as to avoid the occasion of sin, is all part of a continual moral awakening of the soul.

 

[HCF]

If the story is centered around torture in a dungeon and all your stories share a similar theme, then I would think something is a bit “off”. But if your character gets hurt during some trial, and this is the climax of the story or it brings the story into the climax, then maybe it really is not the pain of the character but the climax of the story that you really like - you know, the main action scene - and it just so happens that you have written in your character gets hurt? Correlation does not equal causation, after all.

You also mentioned that when the character is in pain, you like when another character comes forward to help him out. So perhaps you like that emotional connection, that deep bond of friendship or love? It could suggest that you yourself want some sort of emotional connection and either cannot find it or for some reason, while wanting it, you shy from it - thus you express it in this way because it is “safer”.

My suggestion is to try to write about a character who finds this emotional connection (maybe in front of the Blessed Sacrament?) without including physical or emotional pain. And see how that goes.

 

[kbwall]

Well, one could argue that they are sinful. Christ says that the thought is equal, morally, to the action. Now, if the video game is cop vs. criminal, and the player is the cop, I wouldn’t think that would be wrong except for the fact that it’s a waste of time. If the player is the criminal, on the other hand, then it would probably be sinful. If we will give an account for every idle word we speak, it stands to reason that we will give an account for every idle action too.

You can argue a waste of time for almost every action in existance.

Nothing in the video game is real, so it’s irrelevant if you’re breaking the law inside a video game. Since none of the characters are real, nobody is getting hurt, so it’s not murder. Very few who play the game feel genuine anger, so even there it’s safe (at worst it’s frustration at not getting past a certain point)

 

[MrsNoahMoerbeek]

Anything, regardless of its context or origin, that gives the mind an opportunity to cultivate and/or foster disordered pleasure should be avoided. If you write a book to put your characters through pain for the underlying purpose of disordered pleasure, then you shouldn’t do that.

Listening to music, playing video games, watching television, writing/reading books, etc. are all small, subtle activities that can contribute to our disordered pleasure without us even know it. Recognizing it for what it is and making a conscience decision to avoid it, so as to avoid the occasion of sin, is all part of a continual moral awakening of the soul.

 

[MrsNoahMoerbeek]

You can argue a waste of time for almost every action in existance.

Not really, but certainly with most modern entertainment/recreation.

Nothing in the video game is real, so it’s irrelevant if you’re breaking the law inside a video game. Since none of the characters are real, nobody is getting hurt, so it’s not murder. Very few who play the game feel genuine anger, so even there it’s safe (at worst it’s frustration at not getting past a certain point)

Not really. There’s a video game (not in the US) revolving around orgies. People play orgy participants. It does matter, because Christ said it matters. If being angry with your brother makes you a murderer, and a lustful thought makes you an adulterer, committing crimes in a video game makes you, in spirit, a criminal. A big problem with immorality in video games is that it desensitizes a person’s conscience. People play it in a game, become obsessed (not all, mind you), and are no longer satisfied with playing it. Whether or not a person decides to try to do in actuality what is done in the game though is irrevelant. Christ said the thought is the moral equivalent of the action, so certain video games should be avoided.

 

[wjp984]

Come on now. Everyone likes to play the bad guy once in a while. I don’t think there is anything sinful in taking pleasure in playing a bad guy either in a play or movie, or video game once in a while. It’s fun to do once in a while.

As long as it is not an occasion for sin in real life I don’t understand a problem with it.

 

[prstoessel]

Come on now. Everyone likes to play the bad guy once in a while. I don’t think there is anything sinful in taking pleasure in playing a bad guy either in a play or movie, or video game once in a while. It’s fun to do once in a while.

As long as it is not an occasion for sin in real life I don’t understand a problem with it.

Sure. All of us love to play Grand Theft Auto where we can secretly indulge in graphic, explicit acts that entail raping a victim before we kill her. That certainly has no effect or change in our real life behavior.

Okay, that isn’t what you said, but that’s where is goes eventually for more who play than less. Did Jesus ever play the bad guy?

 

[prstoessel]

You are what you eat, right?

Your mind is a product of what you see and hear. Look and listen to disordered stuff, your mind becomes disordered. Video games and books are real - very real - in that regard. If you take pleasure in killing virtual people, that is the sign of a sick mind, or at least a very misguided one.

 

[wjp984]

Sure. All of us love to play Grand Theft Auto where we can secretly indulge in graphic, explicit acts that entail raping a victim before we kill her. That certainly has no effect or change in our real life behavior.

Okay, that isn’t what you said, but that’s where is goes eventually for more who play than less. Did Jesus ever play the bad guy?

I thought my last sentence of unless is a near occasion for sin in real life cleared that point up.

I have never owned a Grand Theft Auto game and I don’t even think I found the game particularly amusing when I have played it. But does anyone remember the old arcade game where you get to play as King Kong, Godzilla, etc., and destroy and kill everything? Was that immoral?

My point is it is just fun to play the bad guy once in a while.

And it’s sometimes fun to think about situations that you know are morally wrong in real life and something you would never do, but just for fun, think about or play in a fantasy world. Again the near occasion of sin is the key phrase: The same rules apply as to watching a Harry Potter movie for example. If it causes you to sin, then don’t do it. Otherwise it is perefectly fine.

I think where the problem comes into play is when it gets sexual. Violence and “bad guy” stuff in a virtual world is for the vast majority of people, not going to cause them to sin.

However, sexual content is something completely different because you are more than likely already sinning even if it in the virtual world and for the majority of people, even if they are not sinning in a virtual world, it certainly will be a near occasion of sin in real life.

 

[prstoessel]

I thought my last sentence of unless is a near occasion for sin in real life cleared that point up.

I have never owned a Grand Theft Auto game and I don’t even think I found the game particularly amusing when I have played it. But does anyone remember the old arcade game where you get to play as King Kong, Godzilla, etc., and destroy and kill everything? Was that immoral?

My point is it is just fun to play the bad guy once in a while.

Point conceded. I remember a coin-op game called Rampage that was just as you described. I do not have a problem with that.

Just keep in my, however, that even Rampage could feed a disordered desire. If one sees that in himself, he should stay away from it.

 

[kbwall]

Not really. There’s a video game (not in the US) revolving around orgies. People play orgy participants.

I imagine such a game would be for the purpose of titilation, which often leads to masturbation. Such would be a sin, because emotions related to sex are different emotions leading to action/violence.

The lust one feels for a half dressed/naked video game character would be just as real as any other pornogrpahic material. Killing in a video game however would be different, as very few people actually feel a desire for murder.

It does matter, because Christ said it matters. If being angry with your brother makes you a murderer, and a lustful thought makes you an adulterer, committing crimes in a video game makes you, in spirit, a criminal.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Just keep in my, however, that even Rampage could feed a disordered desire. If one sees that in himself, he should stay away from it.

I think you might need to define first what is ‘disordered’.
Is it disordered to like being overwhelmingly destructive and powerful in a game yet very well aware that you can never be like that in real life? (Unless God has some really crazy reason to let you. )

For all you know, some random Freudian would think that as actually some subconscious, disordered desire for power and esteem. (Then again, I’m not a Freudian so I don’t really know. )

Still, is it really disordered or just some wannabe shrink’s desperate attempt at making gamers feel like freaks?

 

[prstoessel]

I think you might need to define first what is ‘disordered’.
Is it disordered to like being overwhelmingly destructive and powerful in a game yet very well aware that you can never be like that in real life? (Unless God has some really crazy reason to let you. )

For all you know, some random Freudian would think that as actually some subconscious, disordered desire for power and esteem. (Then again, I’m not a Freudian so I don’t really know. )

Still, is it really disordered or just some wannabe shrink’s desperate attempt at making gamers feel like freaks?

Typically, the church refers to actions, not people, as being disordered. If an action is disordered, it is in conflict with natural law.

Writing a book, playing a video game, listening to music can all be disordered if they foster pleasure that is in conflict with natural law. It is up to each individual to determine where that line is drawn. If that line is not clear, it is an indication that stronger spiritual development needs to be cultivated. A spiritual director would be a good choice for this type of discernment.

So, while playing Pac-Man would not be feeding any disordered desires for most of the population, there might be a few who do.

Playing Mortal Kombat is different. That game is all about killing and finding the most heinous way to do it. It glorifies the act of murder. Playing that game is disordered.

I used an example of Grand Theft Auto before. While I was misinformed on the details of some of the game play, it also is disordered by virtue of its own title. It glorifies stealing. Not to mention the killing. The fact the the sex in the game is consentual and off screen does little to make it any less disordered.

A good gauge to use is this: Would Jesus play this game, read this book, or listen to this song with me?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Writing a book, playing a video game, listening to music can all be disordered if they foster pleasure that is in conflict with natural law.

Again, you still haven’t defined just what makes such a pleasure disordered (contrary to natural law). You say it’s up to the individual to discern it but I for one find it all right to to, for instance, waylay a giant monster with a barrage of slashes and bombs. I find nothing wrong with the pleasure of blasting away a whole crowd of demons/zombies with just a pair of hand guns. Even against human opponents, I have no qualms in unleashing Hyper Combo after Hyper Combo against them.

Playing Mortal Kombat is different. That game is all about killing and finding the most heinous way to do it. It glorifies the act of murder. Playing that game is disordered.

Not entirely. Mortal Kombat is still a fighting game and there is still an element of gameplay involved. One can use the over-all argument regarding fighting games in that they glorify skill.

Then again, I’m not such a big fan of it either purely because the story and the universe it is set in has become rather confusing. It’s no wonder Tekken’s knocked it off its throne ages ago. And yes, many of the attacks have become gory that I can’t help but wonder if they’re really necessary. The game is too gladiatorial that’s for sure.

A good gauge to use is this: Would Jesus play this game, read this book, or listen to this song with me?

WWJD isn’t a good a litmus test as you would think. He was a man whose wisdom and actions were profoundly above His time. People don’t exactly like putting our Lord and Savior in a box so that makes defining WWJD more difficult than folks realize.

With that said, it then becomes unpredictable as to how He would act in the context of this time. For all you know, He might actually beat me at whatever game I’m playing (especially if I still had some unfinished homework).