Virgin Birth Based on Outdated Beliefs About Conception?

[TMC]

it was believed that male semen was only a generating principle and that the female bodily fluids were all that was essentially needed to produce offspring.

I don’t think that any of this has anything to do with the virgin birth, but this is the opposite of my understanding. I think the ancients believed that the sperm was essentially a homunculus with the mother merely providing fertile ground.

 

[Gorgias]

I think the ancients believed that the sperm was essentially a homunculus with the mother merely providing fertile ground.

NB: if that were what was driving the doctrine of the Incarnation, then there would have been no assent that Jesus is “fully human and fully divine”. It would have been “fully divine, and planted in human fertile ground.”

I’m not doubting your assertion about ancient theories of conception and pre-natal development… just pointing out that these weren’t in play in their understanding of the Incarnation.

 

[TMC]

I’m not doubting your assertion about ancient theories of conception and pre-natal development… just pointing out that these weren’t in play in their understanding of the Incarnation.

Yes, I do not see ancient medical theories as relevant to the issue.

 

[Benadam]

The biblical view.

Gen 4

Now the man knew his wife Eve, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, ‘I have produced a man"

Pssst…I don’t think she saw Adam’s contribution with this one…it shows.

When Seth was born she said.

"God has appointed

And next chapter about Seth.

When Adam had lived for one hundred and thirty years, he became the father of a son in his likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth.

She knew with Seth.

I think Adam waited until she realized that he was vital to the reproductive act. He had to master the beast that crouched in waiting.

 

[Mark121359]

I am just relating that some prominent people see it the way it was described by @brown_bear as well

Yes, St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Bernard of Clairvaux to name just two. From the link below;

The Humility Theory

So why did Joseph want a divorce in the Matthean story?

There’s one ancient view that’s often overlooked: Origen’s. Although his commentary on the first few chapters of Matthew’s Gospel has been lost, Aquinas preserves some of it in his famous Catena Aurea. This work is essentially a running anthology of patristic opinions on the Gospel texts. There, along with other interpretations, Thomas gives us Origen’s view.
“He sought to put her away, because he saw in her a great sacrament, to approach which he thought himself unworthy.” (Catena Aurea at Matt 1:19).
Though Aquinas does cite from fathers who hold to the suspicion theory in the Catena, he later adopts Origen’s view as his own. In the Summa Theologica we read:
“Joseph was minded to put away the Blessed Virgin not as suspected of fornication, but because in reverence for her sanctity, he feared to cohabit with her” (Summa Theologica, III, q. 3, a. 3 ad 2).

Was Joseph Really Suspicious of Mary’s Pregnancy? – St. Paul Center

 

[Julius_Caesar]

That would go against Scripture since the whole purpose is to let Joseph know about the circumstances of Mary’s pregnancy.

 

[Mark121359]

You’ll have to take that up with the Angelic Doctor, one of the greatest theologians in all of Church history. Good luck with that!

 

[Julius_Caesar]

You’ll have to take that up with the Angelic Doctor, one of the greatest theologians in all of Church

You’re assuming he hasn’t taken it up with Joseph or Mary.

The plain reading of the text goes against this.

 

[Mark121359]

Read the article. Many Church historians agree with Aquinas. I’m not arguing in favor of either side. I’m just saying that there are prominent theologians who see it differently.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

That’s an appeal to authority fallacy you run in danger of espousing.

 

[Mark121359]

Do you have any evidence that shows that the Church condems Aquinas’s writings?

 

[Mark121359]

Aquinas was not alone with this point of view. Many of the early Church Fathers had the same belief.

The Confusion About Saint Joseph’s “Doubt” | Joseph Sciambra

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Do you have any text from the Church which says Aquinas is right?

 

[LilyM]

You’ll have to take that up with the Angelic Doctor, one of the greatest theologians in all of Church history. Good luck with that!

The same Angelic Doctor who believed Mary was NOT entirely sanctified from the moment of her conception (ie that she was not Immaculately Conceived)? I’d take my chances.

Great theologian St Thomas surely was, infallible in all of his opinions, definitely not.

 

[Mark121359]

you have any text from the Church which says Aquinas is right?

Great theologian St Thomas surely was, infallible in all of his opinions, definitely not.

You act as if Aquinas was the only one who held this position. The early Church Father’s were clearly divided on this question. And even today, many still agree with them. The point of fact is, is it’s not a sin to hold to such an opinion. No more than it is to hold to the opinion that Mary didn’t in fact die, even though most believe she did. I would like to see either one of you provide documentation that states that the Church teaches unequivocally that Joseph thought the Virgin was unfaithful.

Did St. Joseph Have Doubts About Mary? | Catholic Answers Q&A

 

[Julius_Caesar]

You act as if Aquinas was the only one who held this position. The early Church Father’s were clearly divided on this question. And even today, many still agree with them. The point of fact is, is it’s not a sin to hold to such an opinion.

It’s not a sin to be wrong either. You’re just wrong.

 

[Mark121359]

You say Aquinas and company are wrong. But the Church doesn’t. Therefore, the burden of proof is on you to provide such a magisterial document, or even a pope stating that Aquinas and early Church Fathers views on this are wrong. You seem so certain on this. Now prove it!

 

[Julius_Caesar]

You say Aquinas and company are wrong. But the Church doesn’t.

She doesn’t say they are right either. Irrelevant.

 

[Mark121359]

Just as I thought…nothing!

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Just as I thought…nothing!

That’s more so for you and not for me.

What you have done is exalted.opinion over fact.

The fact is:
Joseph wanted to put Mary away.
Angel reassured Joseph about Mary’s conception.

The facts don’t support you.