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BrianK
Guest
What do protestants refer to when the say Catholic’s believe the Virgin Mary is a co-redeemer? Thanks
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IesusDeus
Guest
Check this thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=52996
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=52996
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Gerry_Hunter
Guest
Mary, as “Co-redemptrix” (the usual rendering), has never been proclaimed by the Magisterium.
Most of the heat over this one arises from the two ways we use the prefix “Co-”.
One implies equality, as the co-chairs of a union-management safety committee (say), where each co-chair has equal position and authority.
The second use implies cooperation, as in the co-pilot of an aircraft. He cooperates with the pilot in flying the aircraft, but is not his equal, not sharing his command authority.
Mary certainly cooperated (thank God!) in redemption, but the work of redemption was fully her Son’s. She knew that, and hence, at Cana, did not press him about the lack of wine, but merely told the attendants (and through them, all of us) to “Do whatever He tells you.”
I would have no theological problem with Mary being formally designated as the principle Co-(operating) Redemptrix, because she was. But the confusion might do more harm than good at the moment. So in talking with non-Catholics, I tend to avoid the title, and point out what she did.
Blessings,
Gerry
Most of the heat over this one arises from the two ways we use the prefix “Co-”.
One implies equality, as the co-chairs of a union-management safety committee (say), where each co-chair has equal position and authority.
The second use implies cooperation, as in the co-pilot of an aircraft. He cooperates with the pilot in flying the aircraft, but is not his equal, not sharing his command authority.
Mary certainly cooperated (thank God!) in redemption, but the work of redemption was fully her Son’s. She knew that, and hence, at Cana, did not press him about the lack of wine, but merely told the attendants (and through them, all of us) to “Do whatever He tells you.”
I would have no theological problem with Mary being formally designated as the principle Co-(operating) Redemptrix, because she was. But the confusion might do more harm than good at the moment. So in talking with non-Catholics, I tend to avoid the title, and point out what she did.
Blessings,
Gerry
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Lumen_Gentium
Guest
Simply, redemption made possible through Mary’s humble YES to God’s call to be the Mother of Christ, our Lord and Savior.
PAX
BrianK:
PAX
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b2memphis
Guest
can you prove this with scripture?
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Stephen_C
Guest
So where is Scripture does it talk about sola scriptora (Scripture only)
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chrysostom15
Guest
Pope John Paul II wrote an excellent letter on Mary called On the Blessed Virgin Mary in the life of the Pilgrim Church.
It says:
The teaching of the Second Vatican Council presents the truth of Mary’s mediation as “a sharing in the one unique source that is the mediation of Christ himself.” Thus we read: "The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary. She experiences it continuously and commends it to the hearts of the faithful, so that, encouraged by this maternal help, they may more closely adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer."98 This role is at the same time special and extraordinary. It flows from her divine motherhood and can be understood and lived in faith only on the basis of the full truth of this motherhood. Since by virtue of divine election Mary is the earthly Mother of the Father’s consubstantial Son and his “generous companion” in the work of redemption "she is a mother to us in the order of grace."99 This role constitutes a real dimension of her presence in the saving mystery of Christ and the Church…
Thanks to this special bond linking the Mother of Christ with the Church, there is further clarified the mystery of that “woman” who, from the first chapters of the Book of Genesis until the Book of Revelation, accompanies the revelation of God’s salvific plan for humanity. For Mary, present in the Church as the Mother of the Redeemer, takes part, as a mother, in that monumental struggle; against the powers of darkness"138 which continues throughout human history. And by her ecclesial identification as the “woman clothed with the sun” (Rev. 12:1),139 it can be said that “in the Most Holy Virgin the Church has already reached that perfection whereby she exists without spot or wrinkle.” Hence, as Christians raise their eyes with faith to Mary in the course of their earthly pilgrimage, they "strive to increase in holiness."140 Mary, the exalted Daughter of Sion, helps all her children, wherever they may be and whatever their condition, to find in Christ the path to the Father’s house.
Thus, throughout her life, the Church maintains with the Mother of God a link which embraces, in the saving mystery, the past, the present and the future, and venerates her as the spiritual mother of humanity and the advocate of grace.
It says:
The teaching of the Second Vatican Council presents the truth of Mary’s mediation as “a sharing in the one unique source that is the mediation of Christ himself.” Thus we read: "The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary. She experiences it continuously and commends it to the hearts of the faithful, so that, encouraged by this maternal help, they may more closely adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer."98 This role is at the same time special and extraordinary. It flows from her divine motherhood and can be understood and lived in faith only on the basis of the full truth of this motherhood. Since by virtue of divine election Mary is the earthly Mother of the Father’s consubstantial Son and his “generous companion” in the work of redemption "she is a mother to us in the order of grace."99 This role constitutes a real dimension of her presence in the saving mystery of Christ and the Church…
- At the Council Paul VI solemnly proclaimed that Mary is the Mother of the Church, "that is, Mother of the entire Christian people, both faithful and pastors."134 Later, in 1968, in the Profession of faith known as the “Credo of the People of God.” he restated this truth in an even more forceful way in these words: "We believe that the Most Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, the Mother of the Church, carries on in heaven her maternal role with regard to the members of Christ, cooperating in the birth and development of divine life in the souls of the redeemed."135
Thanks to this special bond linking the Mother of Christ with the Church, there is further clarified the mystery of that “woman” who, from the first chapters of the Book of Genesis until the Book of Revelation, accompanies the revelation of God’s salvific plan for humanity. For Mary, present in the Church as the Mother of the Redeemer, takes part, as a mother, in that monumental struggle; against the powers of darkness"138 which continues throughout human history. And by her ecclesial identification as the “woman clothed with the sun” (Rev. 12:1),139 it can be said that “in the Most Holy Virgin the Church has already reached that perfection whereby she exists without spot or wrinkle.” Hence, as Christians raise their eyes with faith to Mary in the course of their earthly pilgrimage, they "strive to increase in holiness."140 Mary, the exalted Daughter of Sion, helps all her children, wherever they may be and whatever their condition, to find in Christ the path to the Father’s house.
Thus, throughout her life, the Church maintains with the Mother of God a link which embraces, in the saving mystery, the past, the present and the future, and venerates her as the spiritual mother of humanity and the advocate of grace.
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b2memphis
Guest
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
2Ti 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
DO you see anything in here concerning the use of reason or tradition?
Rev 22:18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
Rev 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Rev 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.” Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!
Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
All you need to do is let the scripture speak for itself!
2Ti 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
DO you see anything in here concerning the use of reason or tradition?
Rev 22:18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
Rev 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Rev 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.” Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!
Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
All you need to do is let the scripture speak for itself!
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zcharry
Guest
God used Mary as a instrument of His salvation no more no less.
If not Mary it would have been Jane, Stacy…
We should thank God for His great power and using someone that could complete the task.
Mary was able to the because the Holy Spirit fill her heart, just like He feels our Christian hearts today so we may serve him.
Each of us has a service for God and Marys was no different.
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b2memphis
Guest
Where do you find any of this in the Bible? Is the vatican council more intelligent than God? If so, where is that in the Bible?
2Ti 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Rev 22:18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
Rev 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
You rely on the words and thoughts on ordinary men, I’ll stick with God! You should too!
2Ti 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Rev 22:18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
Rev 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
You rely on the words and thoughts on ordinary men, I’ll stick with God! You should too!
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Stephen_C
Guest
Again I ask, where in the Bible does it says Bible only. Simple question I think. BTW those are nice quotes I agree with all of them…just don’t agree with your implied interpretation as prooving “bible only”
BTW…If you want to start a thread on “The Vatican” and what Jesus meant when he gave Simon (Peter) the key’s feel free to do so…
BTW…If you want to start a thread on “The Vatican” and what Jesus meant when he gave Simon (Peter) the key’s feel free to do so…
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Stephen_C
Guest
Nope, I rely on the Words of Jesus (written and spoken)…And the Church he founded. I believe Jesus spoke the truth when he gave Peter the Keys and the authority to bind and loose. And I truly believe what Jesus said that not even the gates of hell will prevail over his Church. Has not happended in 2000 years. But you can keep trying if you want.
Oh one more thing. It is only by the grace of God and the Holy Spirit working on my heart that I came back to the Catholic Church. I am so humbled that God gave me another chance and did not give up on me…
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Prayer_Warrior
Guest
We find Mary’s cooperation at Luke 1:38.
38 And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
She could have said" Let it not be done according to thy word."
Mary was indeed full of Grace, even before the angel had spoken to her (as the Greek word kecharitomene indicates). However, she still had free will. God knew she would cooperate, of course, but she had the free will to be disobedient. The whole argument “if not Mary it would have been Jane or Stacy” is far fetched in my opinion. God reaction to direct disobedience is severe-- see Genesis for more info.
As stated in post 3, “co” is in reference to cooperation. Truthfully, we are all called upon to be co-redeemers in the sense that this unofficial title is used for Mary. We are all called proclaim the Gospel, are we not? It is in that sense, where we cooperate with God’s plan of salvation, that we are co-redeemers. The same is true when we are called upon to pray for our brothers and sisters. However, if you understand “co” to mean equal with, you are sadly mistaken. In no way does this title make Mary or any of us equal with God. How could such a thing be seriously suggested?
Mary’s role of cooperation was different than ours, of course. It was most important that she bear Our Lord but it was also her job to raise Him, nurture Him, provide meals for Him, etc. Oh wait, the Bible doesn’t tell us she did any of that…nevermind.
38 And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
She could have said" Let it not be done according to thy word."
Mary was indeed full of Grace, even before the angel had spoken to her (as the Greek word kecharitomene indicates). However, she still had free will. God knew she would cooperate, of course, but she had the free will to be disobedient. The whole argument “if not Mary it would have been Jane or Stacy” is far fetched in my opinion. God reaction to direct disobedience is severe-- see Genesis for more info.
As stated in post 3, “co” is in reference to cooperation. Truthfully, we are all called upon to be co-redeemers in the sense that this unofficial title is used for Mary. We are all called proclaim the Gospel, are we not? It is in that sense, where we cooperate with God’s plan of salvation, that we are co-redeemers. The same is true when we are called upon to pray for our brothers and sisters. However, if you understand “co” to mean equal with, you are sadly mistaken. In no way does this title make Mary or any of us equal with God. How could such a thing be seriously suggested?
Mary’s role of cooperation was different than ours, of course. It was most important that she bear Our Lord but it was also her job to raise Him, nurture Him, provide meals for Him, etc. Oh wait, the Bible doesn’t tell us she did any of that…nevermind.
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christcnection1
Guest
I agree with what you said here. That’s why I converted to the Catholic faith two years ago, along with hundreds of Protestant ministers and pastors within the last few years.
www.chnetwork.org
Take a gander at our understanding of faith and tradition. It’s braindead to use these verses to “prove” sola scriptura. Neither the apostles, the early church, nor those who confirmed the canon of books in the Bible believed in your interpretation of those verses.
catholic.com/library/What_Your_Authority.asp
catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp
You mentioned that you should “let the Bible speak for itself.” Well, my friend, I don’t know how in your right mind you think the Bible interprets itself. There are countless denominations; many of them claim to go by the “Bible alone,” and yet they do not agree even on the “essentials.”
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0312bt.asp
This is more clear then the sun gives light; however, I’m open to understanding which denomination you think has the “correct” interpretation of scripture. Is it the Baptists, Evangelicals, Lutherans, Methodists, Mennonites, or perhaps the Church of God? I certainly do not deny their love for Christ, or desire to seek truth, but it’s clear they all disagree on serious issues concerning interpretation of scripture.
Hey, I love you, but you do not belong to this thread. Stick to the topic or take a hike. And if you’re not sure about Mary, check out Revelations 12. If you are truly a Christian, she is your mother too, whether you like it or not.
In Him,
JB
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happygal
Guest
What…oh dear…i’m fainting…:doh2:
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b2memphis
Guest
Just exactly how would you interpret it?
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pprimeau1976
Guest
By referring to Mary as a co-redemptrix, you are actually saying something about God’s character and Mary’s. First, he did it with her knowledge and second, he did it with her co-operation. Christ was the operator of redemption, or the redeemer. Mary was the co-operator of redemption, or the co-redemptrix.
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zcharry
Guest
Mary had nothing to do with Christ redemption of us other than the fact that she was a vessel used by God.
If we use your theory as stated above then everyone in Mary’s blood line could be call a co-operator of redemption. God does not need us as co- anything as he can do His work without our sinful souls. We are just bless that God sometimes does use us humans to carry out His plan. God uses people all the time to carry out his works, Abraham, Moses, King David, Apostles…
It does not matter what your gift is as they are all important to God works.
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pprimeau1976
Guest
That statement alone is an insult to God. You are essentially saying that God is more like Zeus - who used people without taking into account their will. God is not like Zeus, because Zeus was a figment of man’s imagination.
Mary had every opportunity to say “no”, for she had free will. God however, knew what her answer would be, that’s why he chose her, and that is why Gabriel referred to her as “highly favored one” instead of “Mary”. “highly favored one” was the name that God referred her as.
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zcharry
Guest
How is it an insult to God that he has all the power and by Him everything is done.
You must question Gods all powerful being to make statement as you do.
You know nothing of Mary other than the few things about her told in scripture. History does not even have first hand accounts of Mary. All you have is mans idea of what Mary is or in not.
She was one of Gods servants to carry out His promise of Salvation.
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