Virgin Mary as a Co-redeemer? What?

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b2memphis said:
Just exactly how would you interpret it?
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1 Timothy 3:15 states that “the church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth.”

Because “the church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth,” we believe that the church has the authority to interpret scripture and sacred tradition. This authority is given by God alone, and governed by man. We believe that God, by His Spirit, has led His Church into all truth.

We also believe that the Church is apostolic. He cared about His people so much that He ensured His people wouldn’t be lost; therefore, he set up a system of government: His kingdom on earth. (His kingdom is both here and in heaven; it’s both visible and invisible.)

catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp

If you are having a difficult time understand some of our beliefs, that’s understandable. Catholic theology builds on itself, but always stays consistent with scripture and/or sacred tradition. We believe there is nothing within the Catholic faith that contradicts the Bible. Let me repeat, nothing.

If you are looking to have a debate on this particular issue, please start a new thread; otherwise, be specific concerning the co-redeemer issue. We are way off topic here.
 
zcharry said:
How is it an insult to God that he has all the power and by Him everything is done.
You must question Gods all powerful being to make statement as you do.

You know nothing of Mary other than the few things about her told in scripture. History does not even have first hand accounts of Mary. All you have is mans idea of what Mary is or in not.
She was one of Gods servants to carry out His promise of Salvation.
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My friend, there is far, far more in scripture about Mary than you see at first glance. Trust me. I use to be an Evangelical that thought Marian devotions were demonic.

If you are genuinely interested in understanding our perspective, I highly recommend you listen to this. (Make sure you have a pen and pad, so you can write down these scriptures.)

biblechristiansociety.com/download
(See “Mary & the Bible and Purgatory & the Bible”)

Furthermore, you are discounting the hundreds, if not thousands of Marian apparition throughout the world. In some instances, thousands of individuals have surrendered their hearts to Jesus Christ. Satan does not cast out Satan.

If you’re willing to educate yourself, we will not allow you to stay in your ignorance. May He grant you the grace and desire to at least research these things.

Bear in mind, this is only scratching the surface. I think it’s reasonable that you consider understanding what we truly believe, and not a caricature version of it.

After checking it out, send me a private message if you would like to discuss it further.
 
again I ask, WHERE DO YOU FIND ANY OF THIS IN THE BIBLE? It’s a simple question!
 
christcnection1 said:
This is more clear then the sun gives light; however, I’m open to understanding which denomination you think has the “correct” interpretation of scripture. Is it the Baptists, Evangelicals, Lutherans, Methodists, Mennonites, or perhaps the Church of God? I certainly do not deny their love for Christ, or desire to seek truth, but it’s clear they all disagree on serious issues concerning interpretation of scripture.

In Him,
JB
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I do not want to open a new thread, but I would like to comment on this.
There is division in the Catholic Church or at least groups calling themselves catholic. Just one example is the Catholic Church of America. Even from the earliest split the Eastern Orthodox Church, disagreed over the Pope and who had the right one. There are many reasons why churches split and the Catholic Church has the same problem as other churches.

Sorry to digress of the thread

In Christ
 
zcharry said:
I do not want to open a new thread, but I would like to comment on this.
There is division in the Catholic Church or at least groups calling themselves catholic. Just one example is the Catholic Church of America. Even from the earliest split the Eastern Orthodox Church, disagreed over the Pope and who had the right one. There are many reasons why churches split and the Catholic Church has the same problem as other churches.

Sorry to digress of the thread

In Christ
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There are only two types of Catholic. Caferia Catholics (dissenters, aka heretics) and Devout Catholics 100% loyal to Jesus Christ Church.

The caferia Catholic heretics should repent if they don’t I believe they should be denied Holy Communion if they condone homosexuality, abortion, and other immoralities.
 
Are you familiar with the church of Christ? We are non-denominational and use only the Bible, as we are all commanded, as our source of authority.
 
christcnection1 said:
My friend, there is far, far more in scripture about Mary than you see at first glance. Trust me. I use to be an Evangelical that thought Marian devotions were demonic.

If you are genuinely interested in understanding our perspective, I highly recommend you listen to this. (Make sure you have a pen and pad, so you can write down these scriptures.)

biblechristiansociety.com/download
(See “Mary & the Bible and Purgatory & the Bible”)

Furthermore, you are discounting the hundreds, if not thousands of Marian apparition throughout the world. In some instances, thousands of individuals have surrendered their hearts to Jesus Christ. Satan does not cast out Satan.

If you’re willing to educate yourself, we will not allow you to stay in your ignorance. May He grant you the grace and desire to at least research these things.

Bear in mind, this is only scratching the surface. I think it’s reasonable that you consider understanding what we truly believe, and not a caricature version of it.

After checking it out, send me a private message if you would like to discuss it further.
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I will not repsond to this as there is not a point to respond to.

What I will say is you have know idea what knowledge I have and to state such in a broad brush is ignorance.
I have taken a few years to study the Catholic faith and all you have to do is just cruise your own site to see that people of your own faith do not even understand fully of what your church proclaims as the truth.
How much time have you spent studying my Churchs beliefs.
Lutheran (WELS). You can say why should I study a wrong Church but I could say the same thing. It is call knowledge and the more you know the brighter the light becomes.
 
b2memphis said:
Are you familiar with the church of Christ? We are non-denominational and use only the Bible, as we are all commanded, as our source of authority.
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I am. I know several Non-Den.

I believe in the Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and Magisterial Authority of the Catholic Church. We trace our history back to the Apostles. In fact, Our church has Apostolic Succession. Peter is our first Pope, the Head of Our Church is Jesus Christ.
 
zcharry said:
I will not repsond to this as there is not a point to respond to.

What I will say is you have know idea what knowledge I have and to state such in a broad brush is ignorance.
I have taken a few years to study the Catholic faith and all you have to do is just cruise your own site to see that people of your own faith do not even understand fully of what your church proclaims as the truth.
How much time have you spent studying my Churchs beliefs.
Lutheran (WELS). You can say why should I study a wrong Church but I could say the same thing. It is call knowledge and the more you know the brighter the light becomes.
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Perhaps you misinterpreted my post, and the tone in which I posted it. For that I apologize. I have a lot of respect for Lutherans, and believe that their theology is closer to the Bible than nearly all “Non-Denominational” churches.

All I was encouraging you to do was to understand our perspective on Mary, from the Bible. I wasn’t necessarily making any assumptions on what you studied, and what you have not studied. I think it’s admirable that you’ve been studying the faith for so long. 😉
You know nothing of Mary other than the few things about her told in scripture.
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This was the primary piece I have a problem with. There are more than just a few things. There is also some historical record of her with the apostle John in Ephesus. Furthermore, we have countless miraculous apparitions of her throughout the ages.

I found an interesting piece on Mary in the Old Testament:

catholic.com/radio/event.php?calendar=1&category=&event=4622&date=2007-05-21
 
zcharry said:
How is it an insult to God that he has all the power and by Him everything is done.
You must question Gods all powerful being to make statement as you do.

You know nothing of Mary other than the few things about her told in scripture. History does not even have first hand accounts of Mary. All you have is mans idea of what Mary is or in not.
She was one of Gods servants to carry out His promise of Salvation.
Click to expand...
I should not say “insult”, that was probably a poor choice of words. By not acknowledging Mary’s role in salvation history and by viewing her as just the mother of Jesus, it does not give God the full honor that is due to him. By the fact that we have the stars, the sky, and the planets is evidence enough that God is all powerful. By acknowledging that he works through humans that make their own choices, it is actually an acknowledgement of how merciful he is.

As far as scriptural references, it is quite scriptural that she co-operated in God’s plan to redeem the world and should thus be rightfully called a co-redemptrix. The phrase, “let it be done to me according to your will” is scriptural and is an indication that she co-operated with our redemption.
 
christcnection1 said:
Perhaps you misinterpreted my post, and the tone in which I posted it. For that I apologize. I have a lot of respect for Lutherans, and believe that their theology is closer to the Bible than nearly all “Non-Denominational” churches.

All I was encouraging you to do was to understand our perspective on Mary, from the Bible. I wasn’t necessarily making any assumptions on what you studied, and what you have not studied. I think it’s admirable that you’ve been studying the faith for so long. 😉

This was the primary piece I have a problem with. There are more than just a few things. There is also some historical record of her with the apostle John in Ephesus. Furthermore, we have countless miraculous apparitions of her throughout the ages.

I found an interesting piece on Mary in the Old Testament:

catholic.com/radio/event.php?calendar=1&category=&event=4622&date=2007-05-21
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Thank you for your remarks and I’m sorry if I took your remarks out of context.

I think people forget that my denomination, Lutheran (WELS),
has its beliefs rooted in the Catholic faith. We recite the same creeds and I would be wrong not to study what my early church, (Catholic)believed. We have differences, but those differences only exist in the teachings we believe fall outside of scripture. If I going to believe that my way is right then I must study were my early church ( Catholic) went wrong in my opinion. I just can not take the words of Martin Luther but those of God and His Word.

God Bless you and your Church
 
pprimeau1976 said:
I should not say “insult”, that was probably a poor choice of words. By not acknowledging Mary’s role in salvation history and by viewing her as just the mother of Jesus, it does not give God the full honor that is due to him. By the fact that we have the stars, the sky, and the planets is evidence enough that God is all powerful. By acknowledging that he works through humans that make their own choices, it is actually an acknowledgement of how merciful he is.

As far as scriptural references, it is quite scriptural that she co-operated in God’s plan to redeem the world and should thus be rightfully called a co-redemptrix. The phrase, “let it be done to me according to your will” is scriptural and is an indication that she co-operated with our redemption.
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I understand you point and I think we just view it differently.

God Bless you
 
zcharry said:
Thank you for your remarks and I’m sorry if I took your remarks out of context.

I think people forget that my denomination, Lutheran (WELS),
has its beliefs rooted in the Catholic faith. We recite the same creeds and I would be wrong not to study what my early church, (Catholic)believed. We have differences, but those differences only exist in the teachings we believe fall outside of scripture. If I going to believe that my way is right then I must study were my early church ( Catholic) went wrong in my opinion. I just can not take the words of Martin Luther but those of God and His Word.

God Bless you and your Church
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Likewise! I hope to do more research on your church. I think we can both agree that the amount of information out there can be overwhelming.

All the best!
 
b2memphis said:
Are you familiar with the church of Christ? We are non-denominational and use only the Bible, as we are all commanded, as our source of authority.
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I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again… this “Bible only” stuff is self-refuting, as the Church (and for the Protestants, Martin Luther later on :o ) decided which books did or did not belong in “scripture” in the first place. Your position only caves in on itself with circular logic.
 
b2memphis said:
Are you familiar with the church of Christ? We are non-denominational and use only the Bible, as we are all commanded, as our source of authority.
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I take it that you only use the “scriptures” that Paul was referring to then. Paul said that all scripture is profitable for teaching. So why use the New Testament at all then? Paul only had the Old Testament.

My point is not to bash the New Testament, my point is that it is unreasonable to rely just on the Bible.
 
I have read in a book written by a mystical visionary that Mary experienced all of the pain and suffering that Jesus experienced, from the scourging all the way to the painful expiration on the cross and that she was only preserved from death of this experience by a special grace. It is wonderful that Jesus had someone so close to him as to have shared this very part of his sufferings with him.

For our Protestant brothers and sisters calling out for a biblical foundation of the idea of the role of Mary as co-redemptrix, I can only offer yet another non-biblical source to appeal to you. I would like to quote the first page or so of St. Louis de Montfort’s book True Devotion to Mary:

"It was through the most holy Virgin Mary that Jesus came into the world, and it is also through her that He is to reign in the world.

Mary was singularly hidden during her life. It is on this account that the Holy Ghost and the Church call her Alma Mater–“Mother secret and hidden.” Her humility was so profound that she had no inclination on earth more powerful or more constant than that of hiding herself, from herself as well as from every other creature, so as to be known to God only.

He heard her prayers when she begged to be hidden, to be humbled and to be treated as in all respects poor and of no account. He took pleasure in hiding her from all human creatures, in her conception, in her birth, in her life, in her mysteries, and in her resurrection and Assumption. Even her parents did not know her, and the angels often asked one another: “Who is that?” (Cant. 3:6; 8:5) because the Most High either had hidden her from them, or if He did reveal anything, it was nothing compared to what he kept undisclosed.

God the Father consented that she should work no miracle, at least no public one, during her life, although He had given her the power to do so. God the Son consented that she should hardly ever speak, though He had communicated His wisdom to her. God the Holy Ghost, though she was His faithful spouse, consented that His Apostles and Evangelists should speak very little of her, and no more than was necessary to make Jesus Christ known."

Yet, much has been revealed about Mary in latter times according to God’s purpose as humanity comes to learn more.

So I would recommend books like The Glories of Mary, The Mystical City of God(look for the shorter abridged version too), and True Devotion to Mary to anyone. They can all be found at Tan Books: www.tanbooks.com.
 
JeannetteCML said:
I have read in a book written by a mystical visionary that Mary experienced all of the pain and suffering that Jesus experienced, from the scourging all the way to the painful expiration on the cross and that she was only preserved from death of this experience by a special grace. It is wonderful that Jesus had someone so close to him as to have shared this very part of his sufferings with him.
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I am still open to whether or not this is true, but it definitely would not surprise me. Who was the person that claimed to have these visions?
 
Hi
I am of the view that ChristianClergy realized very lately to give some staus to her, earlier they were not of that opinion. The trinity had already been defined consisting of only three persons, they could not accommodate her there, otherwise there would have not been three persons in the trinity but four persons, I understand.This inspiration came later on, if there was any there.
I love JesusYeshuaIssa and MaryMeriumMaryam.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics
The West, as I understand, due to certain disinformation has seen only MullahIslam or MullahShariah; the true face of Muhammad’sIslam and PromisedMessiahImamMahdi’sIslam is yet hidden from their eyes, which is truly speaking only peaceful.
 
No, paar. Mary is not a God. She co-operated with God.

And when you think of the trinity, we do not talk about three gods but one God in three persons.

When you see daylight, there is one light. However, light is actually is a mixture of three separate colors made of the same substance (photons). In this capacity, the Trinity, or God, is very much like a light. As John said, “God is Light.”

It is also amazing that the shape of a perfect rainbow is not an arc, but a circle. A shape without a beginning or an end. Thus, God is without a beginning or an end.

Remember that when God created Adam, he said let US make Adam in OUR image. It is too bad that Islam claims to put weight though in the Torah, but then claims that it has been corrupted. If you had a perfect copy of it, you would see how God is one, yet three.
 
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