"Virgin Mary" vs "Mother of GOD"

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Yerusalyim said:
You’re wrong in this regard…it is Mary’s assent…her “yes” that was necessary for the incarnation. Jesus is God…Mary is his mother…how do you get around that unless you divide Jesus…which is heresy.
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First of all heresy, like treason, is a made up concept.It only applies in the third person “their heresy”. It is a term thrown around by individuals that get angry when people do not agree with them and they strike out in a very non-Christian way. You must understand that since we do not accept the authority of your church the word heresy is irrelevant. Now back to your comment; no one is dividing Jesus. Jesus is not two individuals but has two natures; fully human and fully divine. I think you will agree that Mary was a created being. Her assent was necessary for she above all others chose to fully submit to the perfect will of God. Now to your point: Jesus is God (we both agree), Mary was his mother (again we agree). Here is where we disagree. A created being (Mary) cannot give birth to the God that created her therefore not the Mother of God per say. I realize the historical reason Mary was given this title but in an effort to solidify doctrine the title serves to divide.The title Mother of God is essential to justify other Marian doctrines.

I do want to stress that discussions like this make it seem like Protestants have something against Mary and that is not true. We honor her as the most perfect example of surrendering to the will of God and her wonderful example of motherhood to Jesus. We love her too but we have a much different understanding of her and her role in God’s perfect plan of salvation.
 
JonNC said:
Well, not all protestants, if we Lutherans are to be counted as protestant.

To be truthful I am not sure where to place Lutherans; it depends upon which branch of the Lutheran communion to which you belong. I have worshipped with Lutherans that were very high church and were mirror images of Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches and I have worshipped with Lutherans that were as evangelical in nature as any non-denominational evangelical church.

What I have found in my spiritual life is that I have found Catholics that love the Lord, Methodist that love the Lord, Lutherans that love the Lord, and evangelicals that l.ove the Lord. I really believe that God looks at the honesty and intent of the heart. And I know God loves each and every one of us as imperfect as we are. I would suggest that some on these forums take at look at the writings of Pope Francis and other great leaders like Cardinal Dolan and follow their examples of how to deal with non-Roman Catholic Christians. In essentials unity, in non-essentials charity, and in all things LOVE!
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Sam_777 said:
What if Elizabeth said “Lord” as a sign of respect not “LORD” as of GOD !
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But that is not the case here, Sam. 🙂

It is “kyrios”, the same as in Luke 1: 38 where Mary herself says : "And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord (Kyrios) let it be unto me according to thy word. And with that the angel left her.

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
in Luke 1: 38 where Mary herself says : "And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord (Kyrios) let it be unto me according to thy word. And with that the angel left her.
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See how humble Mary is, she is calling herself “The handmaid of the Lord”.
JESUS called her “Woman”.
General People, the Protestants, and Muslims call her “Virgin Mary”.

Then why Catholics INSIST on the title “Mother of GOD” !!!

If abstaining from using that title would narrow the distances between the Catholic and the other sects and religions, isn’t it better to let go!
 
Sam_777 said:
See how humble Mary is, she is calling herself “The handmaid of the Lord”.
JESUS called her “Woman”.
General People, the Protestants, and Muslims call her “Virgin Mary”.

Then why Catholics INSIST on the title “Mother of GOD” !!!

If abstaining from using that title would narrow the distances between the Catholic and the other sects and religions, isn’t it better to let go!
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Dear Sam, perhaps you are not yet ready to understand or simply deciding not to accept the Fullness of Truth just yet.

And when it comes to Muslims they don’t accept Jesus as God right? So how can we (as Catholics) “let it go”? Jesus is God. Infact calling Mary the Mother of God keeps our FAITH from ever failing us that Jesus is Lord and God.🙂

MJ
 
believerdoc said:
Now back to your comment; no one is dividing Jesus. Jesus is not two individuals but has two natures; fully human and fully divine. I think you will agree that Mary was a created being. Her assent was necessary for she above all others chose to fully submit to the perfect will of God. Now to your point: Jesus is God (we both agree), Mary was his mother (again we agree). Here is where we disagree. A created being (Mary) cannot give birth to the God that created her therefore not the Mother of God per say. I realize the historical reason Mary was given this title but in an effort to solidify doctrine the title serves to divide.The title Mother of God is essential to justify other Marian doctrines.
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Since you can not divide the two natures in the one, then Mary by default went through the birth process and birthed them both. Both the human and divine nature, exited Mary’s womb traveled down the birth canal and entered the world. Scandalous isn’t it, God’s choice to be “birthed” at all?
 
believerdoc said:
JonNC;11570216:
Well, not all protestants, if we Lutherans are to be counted as protestant.
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To be truthful I am not sure where to place Lutherans; it depends upon which branch of the Lutheran communion to which you belong. I have worshipped with Lutherans that were very high church and were mirror images of Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches and I have worshipped with Lutherans that were as evangelical in nature as any non-denominational evangelical church.

What I have found in my spiritual life is that I have found Catholics that love the Lord, Methodist that love the Lord, Lutherans that love the Lord, and evangelicals that l.ove the Lord. I really believe that God looks at the honesty and intent of the heart. And I know God loves each and every one of us as imperfect as we are. I would suggest that some on these forums take at look at the writings of Pope Francis and other great leaders like Cardinal Dolan and follow their examples of how to deal with non-Roman Catholic Christians. In essentials unity, in non-essentials charity, and in all things LOVE!
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How is it charitable to quibble about the wording used by a church you don’t belong to? To propose facile reasons for the usage? I don’t think either of the men you mentioned intend for Catholics to speak like protestants, act like protestants gosh darn it go ahead and be protestants. Please point out who (other than me) has been uncharitable on this thread? Why does charity require that we refrain from explaining why we use the words we do? You appear to believe that the only way for Catholics to be charitable is to roll over and play protestant.
 
Sam_777 said:
See how humble Mary is, she is calling herself “The handmaid of the Lord”.
JESUS called her “Woman”.
General People, the Protestants, and Muslims call her “Virgin Mary”.

Then why Catholics INSIST on the title “Mother of GOD” !!!

If abstaining from using that title would narrow the distances between the Catholic and the other sects and religions, isn’t it better to let go!
Click to expand...
We insist on the title “Mother of God” because that is who Mary is.
The Catholic Church does not yield in her doctrines to satisfy other religions.

Something really tells me that you are not so savvy as to the importance of Mary.

Do you not realize that she is the Queen of Heaven?

How about this: Haven’t you ever understood that Mary is the New Ark of the New Covenant?
The Old Ark of the Covenant contained the Ten Commandments, Manna from Heaven, & the Rod of Aaron the High Priest.
What did Mary contain in her womb? The Word of God, the Bread of Life, & the Eternal High Priest, he who is our Lord, God, and Savior, Jesus Christ.

What do you find so distasteful about Mary being called the Mother of God?
You do believe Jesus is God, right?
 
Sam_777,

Peace be with you. 🙂

It is appropriate to refer to the Virgin Mary as the Mother of God. In the Holy Scriptures, we are taught the following:
Luke 1:35 - The Holy One who is born of you is called the Son of God - الْقُدُّوسُ الْمَوْلُودُ مِنْكِ يُدْعَى ابْنَ اللهِ

So, this Holy One who is born of St. Mary is the Son of God the Father. The Son of God is also called God:
Isaiah 9:6 - Mighty God - إِلَهاً قَدِيراً

This mighty God is our Lord:
John 20:28 - My Lord and my God - رَبِّي وَإِلَهِي

And St. Mary is the mother of our Lord:
Luke 1:43 - Mother of my Lord - أُمُّ رَبِّي

Therefore, it is appropriate to call St. Mary the Mother of God, because the Holy One born of the Virgin Mary, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, is our Lord and our mighty God.

In 1994, Pope John Paul II, and Patriarch Mar Dinkha IV of the Assyrian Church of the East, signed a Common Christological Declaration in which both agreed to the legitimacy and rightness of these following expressions in reference to the Virgin Mary:
  • Mother of Christ our God and Savior
  • Mother of God
  • Mother of Christ
These titles and so many other traditional titles are correct and should not be considered as heresies. They are all ancient expressions of the Christian faith.

God bless,

Rony
 
antonypradeep said:
I prayed to Virgin Mary & St Jude for seeing the person I wished to see for a long time and I was able not just to see the person but also was blessed to talk with that person. This wonderful moment happened on the 1st of Jan 2014 and since then I have been receiving all good news. I thank you Virgin Mary, St Jude, St Rita, St Anthony & St Joan Of Arc & all the saints & Archangels for having heard my prayer. I promise to be your humble servant all my life.
Prayer to the Virgin Mary (never known to fail)
Oh most beautiful flower of Mt. Carmel, fruit wine splenderous of Heaven, Blessed Mother of the Son of God, Immaculate Virgin, assist me in my necessity. Oh Star of the Sea. Help me and show me herein you are my Mother. Oh Holy Mary, Mother of God, Queen of Heaven and Earth, I humbly beseech you from the bottom of my heart to succour me in my necessity. There is none that can withstand your power. Oh show me here you
are my Mother. Oh Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to Thee (3 times). Thank you for mercy towards me and mine. Amen.
This prayer must be said for 3 consecutive days and after that the request will be granted and the prayer must be published.
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Careful here, sounds a lot like superstition.
 
believerdoc said:
First of all heresy, like treason, is a made up concept.It only applies in the third person “their heresy”. It is a term thrown around by individuals that get angry when people do not agree with them and they strike out in a very non-Christian way. You must understand that since we do not accept the authority of your church the word heresy is irrelevant. Now back to your comment; no one is dividing Jesus. Jesus is not two individuals but has two natures; fully human and fully divine. I think you will agree that Mary was a created being. Her assent was necessary for she above all others chose to fully submit to the perfect will of God. Now to your point: Jesus is God (we both agree), Mary was his mother (again we agree). Here is where we disagree. A created being (Mary) cannot give birth to the God that created her therefore not the Mother of God per say. I realize the historical reason Mary was given this title but in an effort to solidify doctrine the title serves to divide.The title Mother of God is essential to justify other Marian doctrines.

I do want to stress that discussions like this make it seem like Protestants have something against Mary and that is not true. We honor her as the most perfect example of surrendering to the will of God and her wonderful example of motherhood to Jesus. We love her too but we have a much different understanding of her and her role in God’s perfect plan of salvation.
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I quoted for you St. Irenaeaus, a farther of the church. He was influenced by St. Polycarp who had known the Apostles, or immediate disciples. You state that you do not accept the authority of “your” church. Who’s authority is closer to that of what Jesus taught than that of those who were nearest to him?
 
Sam_777 said:
See how humble Mary is, she is calling herself “The handmaid of the Lord”.
JESUS called her “Woman”.
General People, the Protestants, and Muslims call her “Virgin Mary”.

Then why Catholics INSIST on the title “Mother of GOD” !!!

If abstaining from using that title would narrow the distances between the Catholic and the other sects and religions, isn’t it better to let go!
Click to expand...
Abstaining from calling Jesus “God” would narrow the distance between Christians and JWs and Muslims. :eek: Would this be acceptable Sam?

Peace!!!
 
For me, as an American Protestant, I can see how the word usage trips people up. Using the title Theotokos is apt, but is understood better in its more literal “God-bearer” or “Bearer of God.” For whatever reason, at least here in the U.S., “Mother of God” gets connected with actually Mothering (Creating) God the Son. She carried God the Son, she bore God the Son, but she did not create God the Son, as God the Son was always existent.

“God-Bearer” clears up the heresies about Christ while making sure everyone is also reminded that Mary did not come before God the Son, nor did she create Him. The title “Virgin Mary” is not “versus” “Theotokos” because they explain Who Jesus is more than who Mary is, in a sense. We just have to make sure we don’t combat one heresy (Jesus is not God) by turning it into a different heresy (Mary created God the Son in her womb).
 
Kliska said:
For me, as an American Protestant, I can see how the word usage trips people up. Using the title Theotokos is apt, but is understood better in its more literal “God-bearer” or “Bearer of God.” For whatever reason, at least here in the U.S., “Mother of God” gets connected with actually Mothering (Creating) God the Son. She carried God the Son, she bore God the Son, but she did not create God the Son, as God the Son was always existent.

“God-Bearer” clears up the heresies about Christ while making sure everyone is also reminded that Mary did not come before God the Son, nor did she create Him. The title “Virgin Mary” is not “versus” “Theotokos” because they explain Who Jesus is more than who Mary is, in a sense. We just have to make sure we don’t combat one heresy (Jesus is not God) by turning it into a different heresy (Mary created God the Son in her womb).
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OK, but I don’t think anyone has ever used the term “Mother of God” with the intention of saying “Mary created God the Son…” IOW, that’s never been the teaching, regardless what communion uses it, no matter where it has been taught.
If someone has come to that false impression, they simply need to ask what it means.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
OK, but I don’t think anyone has ever used the term “Mother of God” with the intention of saying “Mary created God the Son…” IOW, that’s never been the teaching, regardless what communion uses it, no matter where it has been taught.
If someone has come to that false impression, they simply need to ask what it means.

Jon
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I’m saying that is the charge, and often the misunderstanding/miscommunication. Unfortunately not everyone, on either side of the issues, is capable clarifying the issues in simple ways, and in a way the other side will understand and/or accept.
 
The thing is, the definition of “mother” is not “one who creates a child.” Mothers do not create children. The mother does not supply all the material of the child and the soul is created by God.
 
Mary is Jesus’ mother.

Jesus is God.

draw your own conclusions. 🙂
 
adf417 said:
Abstaining from calling Jesus “God” would narrow the distance between Christians and JWs and Muslims. :eek: Would this be acceptable Sam?

Peace!!!
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Calling JESUS “GOD’s WORD” is fundamental and has solid reference in OT & NT, so both the Jews and Muslims must respect that.

But calling Virgin Mary “Mother of GOD” is controversial even between Christians themselves!
 
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