Virgin Mary

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Since the Virgin Mary had no original sin doesn’t that mean that she could technically be alive now If Jesus had not assumed her into heaven.

Without Original sin, there is no effect of death.
 
Churchman25 said:
Since the Virgin Mary had no original sin doesn’t that mean that she could technically be alive now If Jesus had not assumed her into heaven.

Without Original sin, there is no effect of death.
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Jesus had no original sin, but he died on the cross. 🤷
Anyway, the traditional story is that she did DIE and was assumed, body and soul, into heaven. The dogma of the assumption intentionally left whether or not she died, vague.
 
adamhovey1988 said:
Jesus had no original sin, but he died on the cross. 🤷
Anyway, the traditional story is that she did DIE and was assumed, body and soul, into heaven. The dogma of the assumption intentionally left whether or not she died, vague.
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Yes, I agree with your statement.
 
Jesus when he was crucified willed his spirit to leave his body.

As far as Mary is concerned Since she is without Original sin how could she die a natural death.

Adam and eve had no original sin pre-fall and yet they were immortal.
 
Churchman25 said:
Jesus when he was crucified willed his spirit to leave his body.

As far as Mary is concerned Since she is without Original sin how could she die a natural death.

Adam and eve had no original sin pre-fall and yet they were immortal.
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who says they were immortal? we really don’t know if Adam and Eve hadn’t sinned whether they would have died or not. Maybe 🤷 but there really is no definite answer that we will know of.

If they hadn’t sinned, perhaps they still would have died a natural death, but maybe it wouldn’t have any fear or pain with it. It’d be simply going from a paradise earth to an infinitely greater paradise heaven.

Either way, they fell and sinned. So we are left with our human/earthly bodies that eventually rot and die.

Mary was still human, so the time would come when her earthly body couldn’t handle the earth any more, but since she had not sinned, her body was pure and was able to be assumed to heaven. Does that make sense? that’s my take on this.

And another note,
Without original sin, there was no effect of death.
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What I believe this means is not the death of our bodies but of our souls. the ultimate death: hell. Death to us means getting buried in the ground, where as in the Bible death is often used to imply the worst death.

So Mary, not having any original sin, did not “die” the ultimate death. just an earthly one.
 
I found this article by Father John Hardon, S.J. to be considerably thorough in its treatment of how before the Fall, Adam possessed* Sanctifying Grace and the Preternatural Gifts of Integrity, Immortality and Infused Knowledge*.

(scroll about 75% down the page to the section subtitled THEOLOGICAL PROOF, Part Three: "Adam Possessed the Gift of Bodily Immortality")
 
Pretty sure I read somewhere that she died by being consumed with love of God, or basically something to that effect.

Honestly we will not know or have any kind of solid closure on this question until we get to heaven, but much like I don’t understand trigonometry, I do know that it is accurate…
 
Churchman25 said:
Since the Virgin Mary had no original sin doesn’t that mean that she could technically be alive now If Jesus had not assumed her into heaven.

Without Original sin, there is no effect of death.
Click to expand...
She was free from the stain of original sin which means she was not without sanctifying grace at here conception. There is no dogma of faith that the Blessed Virgin Mary died or did not die, but it is generally held that she did.

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, by Ludwig Ott has this:

From her conception Mary was free from all motions of concupiscence. (Sent. communis.)
Freedom from original sin does not necessarily involve freedom from all defects which came into the world as a punishment for sin. Mary, like Christ Himself, was subject to the general human defects, in so far as these involve no moral imperfection. Concupiscence cannot be reckoned among these since it excites a person to commit acts which are materially contrary to God’s Law, even where, through lack of assent, they are not formal sins. It would be incompatible with Mary’s fullness of grace and her perfect purity and immaculate state to be subject to motions of inordinate desire.

In consequence of a Special Privilege of Grace from God, Mary was free from every personal sin during her whole life. (Sent. fidei proxima.)

Mary suffered a temporal death. (Sent. communior.)
 
Churchman25 said:
Jesus when he was crucified willed his spirit to leave his body.

As far as Mary is concerned Since she is without Original sin how could she die a natural death.

Adam and eve had no original sin pre-fall and yet they were immortal.
Click to expand...
God sent “his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin [or and as a sin offering]” (Romans 8:3). Jesus, like our Blessed Lady, was conceived without original sin but he voluntarily accepted and took upon himself the penalties pertaining to the body consequent to the sin of our first parents such as suffering and death. This, Jesus did, to atone for our sins for “the wages of sin is death.” The death of Jesus paid the penalty and ransomed us from eternal death.

“Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that made us whole,
and with his stripes we are healed.” (Isaiah 53: 4-5).

At baptism, all our sins including original sin are forgiven as well as all the penalty due to our sins and by the gift of sanctifying grace given us in baptism we are made partakers of the divine nature and heirs to heaven. However, in baptism God does not remove from us all the penalties consequent from the sin of our first parents (original sin) such as suffering and death. This new state of our soul after baptism but still with bodily infirmities, I believe, is similar to Jesus being born in the ‘likeness of sinful flesh’ which as I said he voluntarily took upon himself to atone for us as well as to give us an example of patience and virtue in suffering. Now, of all people, our Blessed Lady was most conformed to her divine Son and she is the co-redemptrix of the human race. And since Jesus, though sinless as our Blessed Lady is, took upon himself the infirmities of the body consequent upon original sin, I do not believe Mary would want it otherwise for herself especially as she was singularly and intimately united to her divine Son in the redemption of the human race.
 
Although our Blessed Mother did not* have to* die , she would have wanted to die because she desired to be like Christ in every way. The Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God and our Mother, is the model par excellence for Christians.

Moreover, we invoke her in our hour of death:** “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now, and at the hour of our death. Amen**.” Doesn’t it make sense that she would better understand what we’re going through at the hour of death after having gone through it herself ?

Dr. Taylor Marshal points out that :
Her death gave her dominion over Purgatory as prophesied in Ecclesiasticus 24 and gave her more meritorious prayers for those in the hour of death.
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At the foot of the Cross, our Blessed Mother suffered torments worse than death. To paraphrase St. Alphonsus Liguori (The Glories of Mary, Part II) - at the foot of the Cross, she stood there dying, yet remaining unable to die.

In another part of The Glories of Mary we are told that {QUOTE] This angel revealed to St Bridget : he said , that the Blessed Virgin, to see us saved, herself offered the life of her Son to the Eternal Father, a sacrifice which, as we have already said, cost her greater suffering than all the torments of the martyrs, or even death itself.

Excerpt taken from a related page at another site, continuing with quotes from St. Alphonsus Liguori
  1. “But God was pleased that Mary should in all things resemble Jesus; and as the Son died, it was becoming that the Mother should also die; because, moreover, He wished to give the just an example of the precious death prepared for them, He willed that even the most Blessed Virgin should die, but by a sweet and happy death.”
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  1. “There are three things which render death bitter: attachment to the world, remorse for sins, and the uncertainty of salvation. The death of Mary was entirely free from these causes of bitterness, and was accompanied by three special graces, which rendered it precious and joyful. She died as she had lived, entirely detached from the things of the world; she died in the most perfect peace; she died in the certainty of eternal glory.”
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tomperna.org/tag/st-alphonsus-liguori-on-mary/
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NeedImprovement said:
I found this article by Father John Hardon, S.J. to be considerably thorough in its treatment of how before the Fall, Adam possessed* Sanctifying Grace and the Preternatural Gifts of Integrity, Immortality and Infused Knowledge*.

(scroll about 75% down the page to the section subtitled THEOLOGICAL PROOF, Part Three: "Adam Possessed the Gift of Bodily Immortality")
Click to expand...
interesting. so perhaps that is true, but i think some of my points hold some validity. but maybe not 🤷
 
Churchman25 said:
Since the Virgin Mary had no original sin doesn’t that mean that she could technically be alive now If Jesus had not assumed her into heaven.

Without Original sin, there is no effect of death.
Click to expand...
Well according to private revelation God offered to her a way to go straight to Heaven without dying,but she wanted to go through the portal of death just like everyone else, which was granted to her.
themostholyrosary.com/mystical-city.htm
 
From the article on “Immaculate Conception” in the Catholic Encyclopedia, with my underlining:
The formal active essence of original sin was not removed from her soul, as it is removed from others by baptism; it was excluded, it never was in her soul. Simultaneously with the exclusion of sin. The state of original sanctity, innocence, and justice, as opposed to original sin, was conferred upon her, by which gift every stain and fault, all depraved emotions, passions, and debilities, essentially pertaining to original sin, were excluded. But she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam — from sorrow, bodily infirmities, and death.
 
Churchman25 said:
Since the Virgin Mary had no original sin doesn’t that mean that she could technically be alive now If Jesus had not assumed her into heaven.

Without Original sin, there is no effect of death.
Click to expand...
NO:)

But its a thoughtful question.

Could God do this? Of course, but to what end?

GBY
 
Churchman25 said:
Since the Virgin Mary had no original sin doesn’t that mean that she could technically be alive now If Jesus had not assumed her into heaven.

Without Original sin, there is no effect of death.
Click to expand...
There was no spiritual death within Mary. That is, she walked in union and grace with God all the days of her life. However, that doesn’t necessarily mean that she was granted the preternatural gift of bodily immortality.
 
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