C
Cathoholic
Guest
BibleReader, You stated in Post #20: Concerning Revelation 12: “In other words, the “child” is CLEARLY Jesus; therefore, the wailing “woman” is CLEARLY Mary. . . .IT COULDN’T BE CLEARER”
I’m glad you can see the Blessed Virgin in Revelation 12. Many Protestants cannot see this. It ALSO refers to the Church in the New Covenant and other aspects as well (all beyond the purpose of this thread). The item about the Blessed Virgin having Pain in Revelation 12 while giving birth, doesn’t necessarily show the Blessed Mother had pain with birthing JESUS. Why?
Because this verse is very mystical, apocalyptic and has multiple meanings. Remember The Blessed Mother is the Mother of ALL the living. As a matter of fact that is part of the context here as Revelation 12:17 says “ . . .the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus”. If you affirm “the Woman” in Revelation 12 to be the Blessed Mother (as you said you do and I agree with you) then She is ALSO the Mother of all “who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus”.
Giving a mystical spiritual birth TO US or to “all those who bear testimony to Jesus” was undoubtedly painful. This mystical birthing where we received The Blessed Mother Mary as our Mother probably took place at the foot of the Cross, when our Lord Jesus said “Behold YOUR Mother” to John in a primary sense (and us in a secondary sense –that’s why Jesus is described as our eldest brother in Romans 8:29). If that is the case, then THIS birth would have been an incredibly painful birthing process here for the Blessed Virgin Mary. But you can’t assume because it was painful for her to in a sense birth US, that it must have been that way FOR JESUS BIRTH. You can’t state this based on these passages. You could say all the same things (about multiple meanings) about Isaiah 66. Isaiah 66:7- 8 is also very mystical and has multiple meanings . . .
. . . “Before she was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of A SON. Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall a land be born in one day? Shall a nation be brought forth in one moment? For as soon as Zion was in labor she brought forth her sons.” (All caps above mine for emphasis).
Also you also stated in post no. 57 . . .
So let’s look to the Church:
Lateran Council of 649–
Quote:
“If anyone does not in accord with the Holy Fathers acknowledge the holy and ever virgin and immaculate Mary was really and truly the Mother of God, inasmuch as she, in the fullness of time, and without seed, conceived by the Holy Spirit, God in the Word Himself, who before all time was born of God the Father, and without loss of integrity brought Him forth, and after His birth preserved her virginity inviolate, let him be condemned.”
Where is ANYONE in history denying this (with proximity to 649 A.D.)? If this is a new invention of the Catholic Church in 649 A.D., where is all of the historical evidence calling the Church on the carpet for this “new” teaching?
I’m glad you can see the Blessed Virgin in Revelation 12. Many Protestants cannot see this. It ALSO refers to the Church in the New Covenant and other aspects as well (all beyond the purpose of this thread). The item about the Blessed Virgin having Pain in Revelation 12 while giving birth, doesn’t necessarily show the Blessed Mother had pain with birthing JESUS. Why?
Because this verse is very mystical, apocalyptic and has multiple meanings. Remember The Blessed Mother is the Mother of ALL the living. As a matter of fact that is part of the context here as Revelation 12:17 says “ . . .the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus”. If you affirm “the Woman” in Revelation 12 to be the Blessed Mother (as you said you do and I agree with you) then She is ALSO the Mother of all “who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus”.
Giving a mystical spiritual birth TO US or to “all those who bear testimony to Jesus” was undoubtedly painful. This mystical birthing where we received The Blessed Mother Mary as our Mother probably took place at the foot of the Cross, when our Lord Jesus said “Behold YOUR Mother” to John in a primary sense (and us in a secondary sense –that’s why Jesus is described as our eldest brother in Romans 8:29). If that is the case, then THIS birth would have been an incredibly painful birthing process here for the Blessed Virgin Mary. But you can’t assume because it was painful for her to in a sense birth US, that it must have been that way FOR JESUS BIRTH. You can’t state this based on these passages. You could say all the same things (about multiple meanings) about Isaiah 66. Isaiah 66:7- 8 is also very mystical and has multiple meanings . . .
. . . “Before she was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of A SON. Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall a land be born in one day? Shall a nation be brought forth in one moment? For as soon as Zion was in labor she brought forth her sons.” (All caps above mine for emphasis).
Also you also stated in post no. 57 . . .
So let’s look to the Church:
Lateran Council of 649–
Quote:
“If anyone does not in accord with the Holy Fathers acknowledge the holy and ever virgin and immaculate Mary was really and truly the Mother of God, inasmuch as she, in the fullness of time, and without seed, conceived by the Holy Spirit, God in the Word Himself, who before all time was born of God the Father, and without loss of integrity brought Him forth, and after His birth preserved her virginity inviolate, let him be condemned.”
Where is ANYONE in history denying this (with proximity to 649 A.D.)? If this is a new invention of the Catholic Church in 649 A.D., where is all of the historical evidence calling the Church on the carpet for this “new” teaching?
