Virginity: Overrated or Underrated?

[Lost_Wanderer]

I’ve been contemplating on this for a while. Though while it is only moral and true to save oneself before marriage, I cannot help but notice all the rather extremist labels put upon the idea of virginity.

First, let me say that by virgin, I speak from the most technical and down-to-earth definition of someone who hasn’t had actual sex. Anything else could likely be one of the odd labels I’m talking about.

Why are they odd? Only because they are so non sequitur and violate a good deal of logic and common sense. May I state this goes for BOTH sides, secular and religious.

Let me first begin with the religious:

**1. Virginity = Saintliness
**
I’ve been getting this impression a few times on this site that tends to make virgins out as pure, snow-white, little lambs who should be consecrated to God (and don’t even get me started on how the proponents of such a view tend to have a less than charitable perspective on legitimate sexual pleasure within marriage). Not having sex does not necessarily keep somebody from being a jerk. There are plenty of fundamentalists out there who are against the idea of pre-marital sex but are most uncharitable, if not downright ghastly, in their treatment of those outside their circles.

2. Virginity = Clean mind
This actually has a counterpart in the secular group but I’ll get to that later. For now, may I say I am frankly disturbed at the notion that just because somebody is a virgin, this means they have a clean mind befitting a saint. For people who actually believe this, I got news for you: I’m a virgin but if you take a tour through my mind, you’d wonder why I haven’t been arrested yet. Virginity may be some physical shield but it certainly isn’t a mental one. It won’t keep people from having sexual thoughts. And even without the sexual thoughts, being a virgin doesn’t automatically give you the mind of Dominic Savio or Gemma Galgani. I don’t need thoughts of sex to have a fascination for things all dark and creepy or to laugh like the Joker.

Okay, now let’s go on over to misconceptions promulgated by secular folks (like the media).

1. Virginity = Loser
Personally, this misconception is one that leaves me the most outraged. I mean how many times have you seen on it TV where virginity is often associated with the freckle-faced nerd with big glasses and disastrous romance problems? I know. Plenty. I’m sure there are lot of people here who know some pretty cool people who wait for marriage. I mean we already have seen our fair share of cool priests and you don’t see them sitting in front of their PC in their mother’s basement. Having sex does not automatically fix your fashion sense, give you rad music skills, or enchant you with a silver tongue. Anyone who believes that sounds like he/she is still stuck in their immature teen phase (only age has nothing to do with it ).

2. Virginity = Prudish/Naive
As with the religious folks thinking virginity somehow ties with a clean mind, secular folks think that virginity automatically gives them the right to assume a person has some sort of Amish mind. Again, I use my own mind as an example. I’m a virgin but that certainly doesn’t mean I have a child’s wholly ignorance of sex (plus the way it has been ridiculously abused and glorified). And even without such knowledge, that won’t keep you from running out of my mind screaming (especially if you’re a pacifist ).

So what do you all think? Has the idea of virginity been misrepresented? Do you think one side does it worst than the other?

Is it overrated or underrated?

 

[Geremia]

Read Pope John Paul II’s Mulieris Dignitatem apostolic letter and the dignity and vocation of women.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Read Pope John Paul II’s Mulieris Dignitatem apostolic letter and the dignity and vocation of women.

Yes I am aware that sexuality has something to do with human dignity but I don’t see how this deals with the misconceptions about virginity/virgins that I have cited.

 

[WoundedIcon]

To me, someone who is actively and purposely trying to save love making (yes, love making ) for marriage is someone who I would imagine is concerned about respect and charity - especially for a young person - and is someone who has good self-understanding and self-control with a keener mind for the deeper meaning of things. And yes, sometimes people with a keen mind go nuts - I’m a 21 y/o virgin and a Goth. I’m also absolutely insane, pathologically and eccentrically. But how many guys do you find in the projects that listen to classical music and super-underground metal? XDDD I’m TOO cool for most women here.

[/PRIDE]

But let’s face it, you’re right about the puritanical side of the matter, which is what both misrepresentations boil down to in essence. St. Teresa of Avila was a perpetual virgin, and she also was a totally awesome basketcase. Ultimately it’s not about puritanism, it’s about wisdom and strength. It’s not about awwww how sweet and purrty, it’s about the mystical Theology of the Body.

 

[Monica4316]

I think that in the world, virginity is definitely underrated…

as for the Church, I agree with you that being a virgin doesn’t mean that someone has a pure mind or doesn’t sin in their thoughts.

I think that it’s important to strive for purity not ONLY in terms of being a virgin till marriage (or for the rest of their life, if the person has a religious vocation) - but also being pure in thoughts etc. Maybe we are not born perfect like our Blessed Mother, but we can try to always improve regardless of what the ‘world’ thinks about it. I think once we realize that much of the world has been lead astray, and that seeking after pleasure above virtue and God’s will is actually a temptation meant to destroy souls, - it gets easier to have the Catholic perspective…

God bless

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

It’s not about awwww how sweet and purrty, it’s about the mystical Theology of the Body.

Right on!
Honestly, people have so many misconceptions about virginity and I think it’s time both extremes realized just how much they have contributed to that.

 

[Me1234]

Particularly the many televisions shows on TV nowadays bash virgins. It’s sad. This mortal sin, fornication, is so advertised on TV that it sort of repulses me at the idea of watching almost everything on TV. Virginity is totally underrated by way too many people. In my high school we even read books in english class with premarital sex in it and nude people. There are so many people trying to replace the yearning of the soul for God with stupid sexual fleshly pleasures that I feel like I might have difficulty finding a chaste husband when I get married, though I guess I will just have to find better circles that realize that this virtue is important.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Particularly the many televisions shows on TV nowadays bash virgins. It’s sad. This mortal sin, fornication, is so advertised on TV that it sort of repulses me at the idea of watching almost everything on TV. Virginity is totally underrated by way too many people. In my high school we even read books in english class with premarital sex in it and nude people. There are so many people trying to replace the yearning of the soul for God with stupid sexual fleshly pleasures that I feel like I might have difficulty finding a chaste husband when I get married, though I guess I will just have to find better circles that realize that this virtue is important.

The media definitely needs to show a more positive outlook on virgins or at the very least stop acting like MTV.

On the other hand, religious folks do have to account for their fair share. Being a prude is not a solution to the problem of the media today, in fact it’ll only add fuel to the fire. Putting people (even saints) who perpetuate certain stereotypes that cause the misconceptions only make things worse.

I’m personally for showing a more realistic picture of what I call “the common virgin” than the losers or the Puritans often being used to represent the two sides of the issue.

I mean take WoundedIcon and me for instance. We both profess traits that don’t exactly scream the stereotypes presented by the two extremes.

Being virgins doesn’t stop us from learning about sex or even reading stories about the topic. In fact, one can argue that such exposure can lead to a more mature understanding of it just as much as it can an immature one.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I think that it’s important to strive for purity not ONLY in terms of being a virgin till marriage (or for the rest of their life, if the person has a religious vocation) - but also being pure in thoughts etc.

I’m afraid the problem is that purity is a far more arbitrary term than virginity. It’s so arbitrary at times that a misrepresentation or misunderstanding of it has led to many horrific, historical atrocities (e.g. racial purity, cultural purity).

 

[Gordon_Sims]

I believe that there’s an intentional misrepresentation of the concept of virginity within popular media with the express intent of…well, a whole lot of stuff, including using it as an attack against the Catholic Church, but that’s a whole 'nother matter entirely.

I spent several years in my teens as an unwilling virgin, then spent the rest of my pre-married years as a fully willing & committed virgin. It really wasn’t until several years into my marriage that I fully understood what a great thing it was that my wife would truly be my one and only. I saw what some of my friends had been through, and I saw how their attitudes toward their spouses differed quite a bit from mine, and I can’t help believing that their premarital promiscuity (both theirs and their spouses’) has had something to do with it. No matter what happens I can always tell my wife that she is the only woman for me. I’ll always be able to remind her of how special she is to me because she’s the one and only woman that I’ll ever be with, and the one person on this planet with whom I chose to share that gift. I don’t know anyone else my age who can say that.

In everything I’ve ever read on the subject, I’ve never read or heard anything that put it in that perspective. Not in school, from family, friends, or anything in the media. Waiting for marriage has always been portrayed as unnatural, the sign of a loser, impossible, unrealistic, etc. The only positive things I’ve ever read either talk about the fact that it avoids disease, or simply says “because God said so.” I make a point of letting my son know my view on the matter, and will do the same with my daughters once they’re old enough.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I spent several years in my teens as an unwilling virgin, then spent the rest of my pre-married years as a fully willing & committed virgin. It really wasn’t until several years into my marriage that I fully understood what a great thing it was that my wife would truly be my one and only. I saw what some of my friends had been through, and I saw how their attitudes toward their spouses differed quite a bit from mine, and I can’t help believing that their premarital promiscuity (both theirs and their spouses’) has had something to do with it. No matter what happens I can always tell my wife that she is the only woman for me. I’ll always be able to remind her of how special she is to me because she’s the one and only woman that I’ll ever be with, and the one person on this planet with whom I chose to share that gift. I don’t know anyone else my age who can say that.

In everything I’ve ever read on the subject, I’ve never read or heard anything that put it in that perspective. Not in school, from family, friends, or anything in the media. Waiting for marriage has always been portrayed as unnatural, the sign of a loser, impossible, unrealistic, etc. The only positive things I’ve ever read either talk about the fact that it avoids disease, or simply says “because God said so.” I make a point of letting my son know my view on the matter, and will do the same with my daughters once they’re old enough.

That is definitely a more beautiful way to put it and I don’t even understand why some people can’t appreciate that kind of fidelity. Is there like some conspiracy to validate polygamy or something (and this is me saying a lot since I’m no big fan of conspiracy theories)? If you ask me a harem is a more impossible and unrealistic (not to mention morally twisted) goal than being a faithful pair of husband and wife. I should know. I come from a subculture where a portion of released works and fanfiction glorify the unbelievable “harem ending”.

Also, I really can’t calm myself over this whole loser connotation with virginity. I mean it’s one thing to associate virginity with little doves and children’s choirs but to associate it with lanky, science-obsessed nerds with frizzy hair and snarky, nasal accents is just downright offensive!

I mean I don’t need to have sex to wear metal-spiked leather and go around in a mean bike.

I don’t need to have sex to master ninjutsu and send muggers into a whole world of hurt.

I don’t even need to have sex to make sleazy jokes of my own.

What exactly are the media moguls smoking to end up with such non sequitur connections?

 

[WoundedIcon]

Purity is being cleansed of our infection of sin and disorder and becoming our enlightened, “deified” true selves. I know I stated that like a hippie, but I’m a bit of an involuntary mystic. For some people their true self is a suburban mother. For others it’s Inferno and Dies Irae. I don’t like this trend, and I see it as a carry-over from Protestantism, where something is holy because it’s pretty or pleasant. I get enough of that attitude at one Mass these days to make me vomit till the next. It’s like suburban America has set the standard for Christian normality. OK, now my goff is showing

But seriously, there’s so much more to holiness than being normal and nice. I sometimes feel like people are paralyzed at an external level of understanding these things. To take a cue from the Byzantine tradition, we must mount up to godlikeness by purifying ourselves into the original Icon of God within our individuality. The saints are good examples of how diverse pure religion can be.

 

[WoundedIcon]

Particularly the many televisions shows on TV nowadays bash virgins. It’s sad. This mortal sin, fornication, is so advertised on TV that it sort of repulses me at the idea of watching almost everything on TV. Virginity is totally underrated by way too many people. In my high school we even read books in english class with premarital sex in it and nude people. There are so many people trying to replace the yearning of the soul for God with stupid sexual fleshly pleasures that I feel like I might have difficulty finding a chaste husband when I get married, though I guess I will just have to find better circles that realize that this virtue is important.

I know the feeling. I look around and go “Oh great, whoever I wind up with will probably have had sex with at least one other guy, if not three.” I hate the idea of sharing someone, there’s just so much… art to a first time consummation. It solidifies the relationship the way a consummation ought to do. Not to mention that no guy wants his lover going “Hmm, the other guy hit the spot better” on their wedding night Of course, the first time is bound to suck physically for two virgins - but that’s more than made up for in emotion and, as I said, art. Romance > Lust

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Purity is being cleansed of our infection of sin and disorder and becoming our enlightened, “deified” true selves. I know I stated that like a hippie, but I’m a bit of an involuntary mystic. For some people their true self is a suburban mother. For others it’s Inferno and Dies Irae.

You know your definition of purity is definitely the most reasonable I have ever read on this site (even if you did stated it like a hippie ).

I’ve discerned for quite some time that I’m definitely an Inferrno person. (If it means anything, I’ve had people tell me I have a strange fascination for fire… oh and sharp objects ).

I don’t like this trend, and I see it as a carry-over from Protestantism, where something is holy because it’s pretty or pleasant. I get enough of that attitude at one Mass these days to make me vomit till the next.

I can’t stand that either yet the religious like to put it up nice and high on the pedestal for all the world to see so as they will “convert their minds to purity”.

So far all that’s done is give the secular folks another straw man to caricature. :banghead:

To take a cue from the Byzantine tradition, we must mount up to godlikeness by purifying ourselves into the original Icon of God within our individuality. The saints are good examples of how diverse pure religion can be.

I personally have more fondness for the likes of St. Joan of Arc than St. Therese of Lisieux. (Although, I can’t say I can imagine myself being so knightly. ) The former may be virgin but that sure didn’t stop her from being an effective military commander and possibly a very skilled combatant.

 

[Gordon_Sims]

That is definitely a more beautiful way to put it and I don’t even understand why some people can’t appreciate that kind of fidelity. Is there like some conspiracy to validate polygamy or something (and this is me saying a lot since I’m no big fan of conspiracy theories)?

Thanks! As far as a conspiracy I think it has more to do with the mainstream media being very anti-religious and opposed to traditional values. That’s why you’ll continue to see virginity tied to geekiness, loserdom, ultra-right wing religious fanatics and holier-than-thou hypocrites who espouse abstinence but are secretly outlandishly promiscuous.

By the time I was in my late teens/early 20’s, I didn’t fit the “geeky virgin” mold in the slightest. I partied way too much, was not outwardly religious and was certainly not the type one would expect to view waiting until marriage as a respectable goal. Thankfully, that was one of the things that stuck with me from my Catholic education (even if I tried to ignore it for a time), and I believe it’s benefited me a great deal more than my friends’ “experience” ever benefited them.

 

[WoundedIcon]

I can’t stand that either yet the religious like to put it up nice and high on the pedestal for all the world to see so as they will “convert their minds to purity”.

So far all that’s done is give the secular folks another straw man to caricature. :banghead:

Yeah… and then there’s the modern Jesus the Sheep Snuggler. You’d think the Joyful mysteries would teach people otherwise, what with most of those Bible passages saying “Jesus will chuck the rich and powerful past the horizon and totally flip the paradigm upside down, making the poor and oppressed the truly strong ones.” Hell, do people even listen to the Magnificat? I mean, I believe in love, gentleness, peace, harmony (kumbaya), and joy… but we really need to stop with this imbalance. And sometimes it is precisely chaos that brings order. For example, my prayers hardly got answered for four years, and that’s what it took to break me down and turn me Catholic. Sometimes we even have to pray for chastisement upon our loved ones to bring about conversion. Jesus knows when to hug and when to rebuke. There’s a time for everything. In the Gospels we don’t always see him being so kind, he comes across as more the type to stand up for what’s right at all cost. Sometimes that means warmth, sometimes it means getting a whip. I get sick of false dichotomy, where it’s all or nothing soft or smack-you-with-a-ruler.

I went to OF Mass last Sunday and it’s like… jazzy pop and everything is saccharine. I go back and read my EF missal and it’s all like “Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!” I don’t like how Catholics have lost their culture I guess. I mean, how many Catholics these days would consider it a blessing for someone to be a victim soul? O, where hath the Olde Testament gone? I mean, I like a well done OF - it’s very angelic - but where are those when you need one, especially in the US?

Catholics seem to be creating the whole Protestant dichotomy of “Angry OT God” then “Cuddly NT God”. Nope, in the OT Jesus in Heaven blows whole countries up. In the NT, he verbally rips the individuals responsible apart. In the OT he lovingly preserves his faithful, in the NT he cries for them and heals them. No clash there.

I bet you can follow my train of thought even though it looks like I’m getting way off track. It’s just… I cannot for the life of discuss something without having to bring out everything behind it and connected to it. I process reality like philosophical math: take this, multiply it by that, divide accounting for that factor, turn this gear and these five will turn these 20 and then they all go… etc.

 

[nickybr38]

It almost seems like ‘losing one’s virginity’ is a right of passage that is celebrated in our culture. Just recently one of the girls I work with had sex for the first time and everyone was congratulating her and telling her ‘she’s a woman now’. And yet she still acts and speaks like a child.

Sexuality is the new golden calf of our society. Well, not new… I seem to remember another empire that was perhaps as sexually corrupt and motivated as we are. I won’t name names but it starts with an R…

Whenever I watch a sitcom or a TV show and they take the opportunity to mock someone who has decided not to have sex outside marriage, or even to WAIT to have sex until a relationship is firmly established, I just can’t help but to sigh inwardly. These ideas are reflected on our television shows and in our movies but the reality is far, far worse.

I gave up on dating because I was tired of men trying to force sexuality into a relationship that was just days old. It seems like people want a physical and/or sexual connection before they’re ever concerned with a mental or emotional connection. I don’t fully understand that, maybe it’s just because I’m female? I dunno.

Another thing that I noticed is that people who choose not to be physical prior to marriage (virginity or even more extreme forms of purity like abstaining from foreplay of any sort) are painted as having problems. Because, really, if you CHOOSE not to do those things it MUST be because you’re scared to, or because you have a mental deficiency… because you must be willing and able to act on your desires at all times or else you’re unstable.

My friends call me ‘asexual’ because I refuse to engage in foreplay of any sort (even kissing). I have to explain to them that just because I HAVE a desire, doesn’t mean I have to, or even SHOULD act on it… which just confuses them even more.

My reasons for being so strict is simply because I do not trust myself to avoid temptation. I understand that others can get away with certain levels of foreplay without being overwhelmed by their desires but I, personally, do not have the best restraint. That’s why I’m overweight. Once those delicious cookies touch my lips I’m done for!

Anyway, that was WAY too much TMI but there you have it. My thoughts on virginity and our society (the abbreviated version).

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

It almost seems like ‘losing one’s virginity’ is a right of passage that is celebrated in our culture. Just recently one of the girls I work with had sex for the first time and everyone was congratulating her and telling her ‘she’s a woman now’. And yet she still acts and speaks like a child.

I’ve heard of this “Rite of Passage” hash a few times already and I can only say, “As if!”
This is obviously due to the very misconception of equating virginity with innocence. I’m sure some of us have already clearly demonstrated how much of that is based on reality.