Visible Church... Visible Head

[heisenburg]

Did God appoint a Head of the Visible Church in Peter and its Ramifications…

Catholics and Protestants agree that there is an invisible portion of the Body of Christ. However, we disagree on if there is a visible portion established by God.

What is a visible Church though… At a minimal level… it is simply the physical logical grouping of people… Ie the Baptist denomination is a Physical Church of sorts… same with United Methodist, EO, Catholic, etc… In other words… physical locations I can go to learn about Christ. We differ simply on if the visible portion was ALSO established by God…

Now, regardless on your view of the papacy, scripture does seem to indicate that if nothing else, Peter was head of the visible church while he was alive…

In other words… Peter was the Head Pastor of the Early Church… Unlike the head pastor of say First Baptist, this head pastor was appointed by Jesus himself when eh told peter specifically to “feed my sheep”

Now if Jesus did establish the office of Head pastor for the visible church at the time, then this office was not only established for the time immediately following Christ, but that this office must always exists for all time…

That there will always be single person the ‘feeds the sheep’ for all Christians regardless of Denominations…

Why?

1. God is not fickle…more than that, it is impossible for him to be fickle. He may alter how his plan gets carried out, but it will always be carried out.
2. God does not make mistakes… no argument from anyone I hope
3. God is timeless. This is actually something extremely important when considering the papacy… But it may warp your head a little

And here is why…

If God is timeless, this means he is outside of Time. In other words, he experiences all points in the past, present and future equally at the same time. When God makes a declaration, he is not doing it from our Point of view, but his… In other words… all declarations are outside of time as well. Sodom and Gamora would always be destroyed… The ten commandments were and will always be.

So…

If God establishes a visible head of the visible church at the time of Peter, the office is also created for all time. When god created the office in Peter for a visible church, it is actually impossible for him to create a visible head for JUST Peter as this would mean the office goes away…

Something that is impossible if God is Timeless…
When God created that Office for Peter, since he is timeless, this office was immediately an part of all points in time at once.

So… what are the ramifications if the logic is followed through…

There MUST be someone here on earth RIGHT NOW that is the visible head of the same visible church that god created and office for in 33AD.

The visible church could not have apostatized, as this would mean the Church no longer existed…

The Office cannot fail because it was an office created by God…

If the office or the church ever did become false and/or were no longer part of Gods plan for Christianity, then this would mean god Changed his Mind…

I reiterate… Since God is Timeless AND since he created th office AT LEAST FOR PETER, then this office must always exist for all time, and there must always be someone manning that office…

Otherwise, it would null the notion that God is Timeless…

Thoughts? comments?

In Christ

 

[heisenburg]

An easier way to see this logic …

From Gods perspective…

Sodom and Gamora Have not yet been destroyed
Are being destroyed
And are already destroyed…

All at once

In Christ

 

[SyCarl]

Did God appoint a Head of the Visible Church in Peter and its Ramifications…

Catholics and Protestants agree that there is an invisible portion of the Body of Christ. However, we disagree on if there is a visible portion established by God.

What is a visible Church though… At a minimal level… it is simply the physical logical grouping of people… Ie the Baptist denomination is a Physical Church of sorts… same with United Methodist, EO, Catholic, etc… In other words… physical locations I can go to learn about Christ. We differ simply on if the visible portion was ALSO established by God…

Now, regardless on your view of the papacy, scripture does seem to indicate that if nothing else, Peter was head of the visible church while he was alive…

In other words… Peter was the Head Pastor of the Early Church… Unlike the head pastor of say First Baptist, this head pastor was appointed by Jesus himself when eh told peter specifically to “feed my sheep”

You are here making an assumption that not all agree with. If it is not accepted that Peter was the head of the original church then the rest of the argument falls flat.

Now if Jesus did establish the office of Head pastor for the visible church at the time, then this office was not only established for the time immediately following Christ, but that this office must always exists for all time…

That there will always be single person the ‘feeds the sheep’ for all Christians regardless of Denominations…

Why?

1. God is not fickle…more than that, it is impossible for him to be fickle. He may alter how his plan gets carried out, but it will always be carried out.
2. God does not make mistakes… no argument from anyone I hope
3. God is timeless. This is actually something extremely important when considering the papacy… But it may warp your head a little

And here is why…

If God is timeless, this means he is outside of Time. In other words, he experiences all points in the past, present and future equally at the same time. When God makes a declaration, he is not doing it from our Point of view, but his… In other words… all declarations are outside of time as well. Sodom and Gamora would always be destroyed… The ten commandments were and will always be.

So…

If God establishes a visible head of the visible church at the time of Peter, the office is also created for all time. When god created the office in Peter for a visible church, it is actually impossible for him to create a visible head for JUST Peter as this would mean the office goes away…

Something that is impossible if God is Timeless…
When God created that Office for Peter, since he is timeless, this office was immediately an part of all points in time at once.

So… what are the ramifications if the logic is followed through…

The problem is that the logic is faulty. First the fact that God is timeless does not lead to the conclusion that something He does cannot be limited in time. God is all powerful and all things are possible for Him. Even though God is timeless He can establish something that is limited in time. Your argument would lead to the following logical conclusions. During Old Testament times God created the office of prophet which was filled by various persons. Since God created the office of prophet then this office must be at all points of time at once. Therefore there should be a continuous line of prophets to the present day. Who have these prophets been?

Another conclusion that would follow from your logic is that, since the office of Peter is a part of all points in time at once, the office must have existed in the Old Testament time. If the position is timeless, it is not just timeless for the future but for the past as well. Who filled Peter’s office before Peter?

There MUST be someone here on earth RIGHT NOW that is the visible head of the same visible church that god created and office for in 33AD.

The visible church could not have apostatized, as this would mean the Church no longer existed…

Again this argument does not logically follow. The visible hierarchy can fail without the invisible portion ceasing to exist. The truth of this proposition can be seen throughout the Bible in relation to Israel. At numerous times the structural aspects of visible Israel failed. However even in those cases God kept a remnant for Himself. The king and priests could be apostate, the prophets false, but that remnant always existed. So the Church hierarchy can fail but a faithful remnant of believers can remain.

The Office cannot fail because it was an office created by God…

If the office or the church ever did become false and/or were no longer part of Gods plan for Christianity, then this would mean god Changed his Mind…

Again this does not logically follow. God created man without sin. Man fell. That does not imply that God changed His mind about man. When God allows freewill then anything involving humans can fail. God’s purpose would only fail if the faithful remnant failed. There is no requirement that that remnant be entirely or even partially in the visible institution. Paul, in 2 Corinthians 16-18 refers to the faithful Israel being called to separate themsleves from the corrupt. That still applies in the New Testament for we see in Revelation 18:4 we see the remnant of God faithful being called out of the fallen and apostate Babylon. (Please note I am not associating the Catholic Church with the harlot Babylon. It may be something other than a church or it may be all institutional churches.)

 

[heisenburg]

while I may disagree with you on some points it is just a thought experiment on my end nothing more

as you mentioned, I understand that not everyone agrees that even peter was established as head… and yes… I should have clarified that this really only is applicable to those that believe such, otherwise, it is a moot point…

That being said, on some of your other points, though good points, we must keep in mind two things…

there are events, and there are declarations, creations if you will…

Man by his free will, something that was given to us, chose the event to refuse God…

so too with other events…

But there are times when there are declarations… such as the ten commandments…

IF you agree the office was created for peter… then it is the office that was created… not the person or the events surrounding a person…

the Office is immune to the individual actions and events, butt he office always exists…

Like the Levitical Priesthood. The people may have done poorly, but the office still exists for the old covenant… (just no one filing that position since there is no temple…

Anyway… as mentioned, it is just a thought experiment on my end… it may not be perfect… and is more something I am getting thoughts on than I am saying this is the way it is

In Christ