Visions and Ectasy

[TheRoyalPain]

How would one know if ecstasy actually happened during prayer, or if it was just made up in the mind of the one praying?

Also, visions. Are they just a thought they appears in the persons head, or actual visions?

One last thing, what should one do if they are told a vision is just made up in the mind of someone with a mental illness?

Thank you in advance

 

[Tis_Bearself]

If you were having an actual vision or ecstasy that came from God, you would not need to be asking these questions.

 

[TheRoyalPain]

Not me per se

 

[CRM_Brother]

The descriptions of ecstasies among the mystics can be somewhat varied. This is the very nature of mysticism. The experience is always unique to the one experiencing it and it’s interpretation is always presented within the spiritual viewpoint of the mystic. One common thread, however, is how foreign the experience to any physical experience previously felt. It is a sensory physical participation in the beatific vision and as such is incomparable to anything which had been felt before. Mystics who experience ecstasies intrinsically know something remarkable has happened, even if they don’t fully understand what.

Visions can be somewhat mixed. There are purely mystical visions where the visionary is whisked away to witness the vision and brought back and there are those visions which happen within the context of the world around them.

Of the first, the only absolute proof that a purely mystical vision took place would be a relayed foreknowledge of things yet to come, or some sort of physical proof (wet clothes, dirty hands and feet, an object or wound which had been conveyed during the vision).

The second is somewhat easier to verify as it happens within the context of the physical world and, as such, there is sometimes physical proof of the vision, like the Spanish Medieval legend of Macellino as recorded by Alfonso X of Castile.

One last thing, what should one do if they are told a vision is just made up in the mind of someone with a mental illness?

Simply because there may be a physical trigger does not mean that God is using the illness to convey some truth. Every vision must be analyzed and confirmed against the test of Faith. The most famous of a physical or mental illness accompanying legitimate visions is that of St. Hildegard of Bingen, Doctor of the Church. Scholars and medical experts widely agree that she suffered Aura Migraines which coincided with her visions. While this may be the physical trigger, this does not mean that Christ did not speak to her or reveal things to her during these episodes. The migraines themselves do not explain her prophesies, depth of mystical knowledge, and visions which correspond to experiences of later mystics.

I do, however, have to point out that St. Hildegard is most likely an outlier and a very rare case. Mental illness usually acts outside of mystical experiences. This is why any potential mystical experience must be analyzed not only by the potential visionary but also by confessors as an outside perspective is crucial in determining the origins of a potential vision.

God Bless,
Br. Ben, CRM

 

[Pat_Albertson]

If you are going to confession, refraining from sin, doing your best to attend mass on Sundays, and receiving Holy Communion, you will probably not be sent ecstasies and visions from satan.

If so, then you might be able to make progress along the schema outlined by Teresa of Avila. This is a condensed sermon on the nature of The Interior Castle:

This is an audiobook along the same lines. I have listened to it several times now. It is long, but it is definitely worthwhile. Several times I have had it on while I slept. I find it very very comforting:

I myself have not gotten very far into the ‘mansions’ in my ‘castle’ as I am very very imperfect, but I would dearly love to make progress along these lines.

If anybody here has done these things and gotten to levels 4, 5, 6, and 7, I would love to read about it.

As far as I am concerned, I have barely dipped my toe into level 3. 3 is as far as you can get under your own power. 4 and beyond are from God.

 

[ewohdrol]

You’d be surprised how many people are convinced they have had visions from God. Many people across all religions are absolutely sure they are receiving direct messages/visions/apparitions from a higher being.

I hazzard a guess most of these individuals are either convincing their subconscious this is the case or have undiagnosed mental health problems.

My aunty was convinced a saint spoke to her often. She would report many miracles and indirect conversations she would have with him. Considering her messages were very new agey (at a time she was into crystals and horiscopes) I am sure she was deluding herself at a difficult time in her life. She is now in a much happier place and funny enough these visions seem to have stopped.

 

[Vico]

How would one know if ecstasy actually happened during prayer, or if it was just made up in the mind of the one praying?

Also, visions. Are they just a thought they appears in the persons head, or actual visions?

One last thing, what should one do if they are told a vision is just made up in the mind of someone with a mental illness?

Thank you in advance

A profound calmness may occur with a feeling of joy.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

You’d be surprised how many people are convinced they have had visions from God.

I wouldn’t be surprised at all to be honest. One look at the Internet shows that there are people claiming they have visions from God on a regular basis. Why would you think it is such a surprising thing?

Many of us here believe that saints speak to us from time to time, or even God speaks to us. However, those of us who are firm in our faith simply discern/ accept the message and move on.

Also, the OP’s post was not about God simply speaking to people. It was specifically about “visions” and “ecstasies”. Most people, even those who feel they hear from God or a saint regularly, do not go into ecstasy, nor do they have a vision. They simply realize or feel on some level that God or one of his saints is speaking to them. Visions and ecstasies are very specific, unusual manifestations of God that do not happen very often or to most people.

The OP indicates he is concerned about other people’s visions or ecstasies. The only time these would be of concern would be if the person is claiming to convey a message to the general public through their visions, or if the person is a friend or loved one of the OP.

If it’s a friend or loved one of the OP claiming to have visions, they should be put in touch with a priest and if the situation seems to call for it, a mental health counselor.

If it’s just some stranger claiming to have had a vision, then the OP should look at all the circumstances surrounding it, such as if the person is Catholic, if the Church looks favorably on them/ their vision (like is the vision an approved apparition, was the person canonized as a saint, are Church officials investigating their vision etc), are they saying anything contrary to Church teaching, are they soliciting funds (often this is a red flag). Generally it is best for Catholics to not be too concerned with the purported visions or ecstasies of other people unless and until the Church has approved the vision or canonized the person, or at least put him or her on the path to canonization.

I pretty much ignore anyone making claims of visions or ecstasies unless the Church promotes or approves them in some way. I do not have anyone in my close family or friends making these claims; if I did, and it was happening more than as a one-time thing, I would want to gather more information from priests and medical professionals to see what was going on with the person, as such manifestations could be symptoms of a mental illness.

 

[rakovskii]

How would one know if ecstasy actually happened during prayer, or if it was just made up in the mind of the one praying?

Also, visions. Are they just a thought they appears in the persons head, or actual visions?

These are very good questions. I guess that ecstasy is an emotion or feeling. So if a person is in an ecstasy, then as long as the person was honest and of a sound mind, then it doesn’t matter whether their mind made it up or if it actually happened, because it would probably be the same thing. It would be like asking if they were sad, angry, energetic, sleepy, joyful. I get that ecstasy is a bit different than those, like extreme happiness, but also similar in a way.

Let me give an analogy that I find helpful if we applied that rule to visions. Consider the Shepherd of Hermas. It’s a very long document. It took me days to read. It’s a series of many visions from a Shepherd (Christ) to Hermas of Rome in the 1st-2nd century). I myself think that it’s so long and took so long to write that the author must have known whether he was (A) recording literal involuntary visions or if he was (B) imagining some or alot of it in his head and drafting it as a fictional document like Dante’s Inferno. I wrote about this dilemma here: Shepherd of Hermas - Questions.

On one hand, it was part of some early Bibles, but on the other hand, Jerome in the 4th century wrote that everyone despises the document. I will be interested to hear what you yourself think. So this is why I said that it comes down to whether the author was lucid and honest. If Hermas was honest and lucid and then told people he met back in Rome that his document was literal and real, it would suggest that it was. Did you find this helpful?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

With all due respect, rakovskii, you seem to be on a mission to post about The Shepherd of Hermas in every thread on the forum.

I agree it’s at least peripherally on topic here, so I’m not flagging it, but you should not be using every discussion as an opportunity to bring up The Shepherd of Hermas.

 

[rakovskii]

Tis,
OK. I see what you mean. I will be more careful about this in the future. Thanks.
It took me a while to read and two of the main issues for me were about doubting (eg. its visions) and whether you can repent more than once for sinning. I saw that these kinds of topics come up in a bunch of threads, so I posted about it on them.

 

[Bluebright]

No offence but if you are asking for someone else, it is probably not within your ability to help. I do not mean that in any offensive way, just that these things are difficult to explain/describe so if someone is telling you about it (and not their confessor) that is probably a sign that you should tell them it’s not your business and to go to their confessor, unless you are a confessor or a spiritual director, it is unlikely you can help them. Please try not to take offence at my words, but if they are having visions from anything spiritual ; devil or God and dont know what they are dealing with, they might need more help than ‘the internet’. If not and it is mental health issues that can be tricky too, if you dont know them well try get someone who does to help them, like their parents or partner. You should pray for them either way. Try be kind and gentle in the mean time, whatever they see is real to them. God bless you