Visions? Delusions? Satanic Deceptions?

[obvious_ron]

Why does it seem that Catholic devotion, theology, the founding of religious orders and other aspects of Catholic life are so influenced by visions and apparitions? How does the church separate what it classifies as authentic and true versus what might be mere hallucinations or even demonic deceptions? Is it not sketchy to take someone at her word when it comes to these things?

 

[GaryTaylor]

The Theology of the Catholic Church is based on the Deposit of Faith, with public revelation you should realize there is much mystery such as the Annunciation, Incarnation, Wedding of Cana, Transfiguration, Baptism, Cross, Asension, etc etc etc etc etc.

Private Revelation and Devotions are a different subject which have a process just as a Saint would. Let me put Devotion in perspective for you. The first step is weekly Mass, Eucharist. Holy day of Obligation, the Sacraments and a State of Grace, and obviously a daily prayer life, even venial sin must be avoided at length, “then” one begins a Devotion. You see none of this required, but if you are following the requirments of the Devotion you are already involved in the Church, then the devotion can only take you deeper into the Mystical Body.

I would suggest the Catholic Church Catechism to enlighten you on the truth of Catholic Church.

google.com/url?q=http://catholicismpure.wordpress.com/2012/05/24/newsflash-vatican-published-rules-on-apparitions-and-revelations/&sa=U&ei=pq2LULn3A–v0AHOzoHoBw&ved=0CCUQFjAG&usg=AFQjCNFPf7co_2gcuAPzFusz1pDR-mzD3A

google.com/url?q=http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/apparitions.htm&sa=U&ei=I62LUO73LfG50QGg-oDwDg&ved=0CDAQFjAH&usg=AFQjCNFNLhBnkYvXiFmXnh-u3aUsdQThxg

The criteria is here, yet as you see above until the new translation is read it probably differs.

google.com/url?q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_apparition&sa=U&ei=I62LUO73LfG50QGg-oDwDg&ved=0CBwQFjAD&usg=AFQjCNEglCN8GonjOQvQuQkCPvrrJH89lw

Verse’s, you are speaking Scripture now? Satan doesn’t lead mass numbers of souls to the Church Christ established, sounds like a contradiction no? Satan would tell you to pray the Rosary daily and attend Confession the first Sat of the month? Or would he encourage you to indulge in the vast earthly pleasure of vice which turns to habit, self destruction, death and judgement. Sounds more like satans path no? In effect he would discourage you from Church, confession, Eucharist prayer etc etc. Those are not part of his agenda.

 

[Michaelscharge]

Sometimes during Mass I have intense experiences of love, gratitude and i cry. Other times I react to something in the readings or homily as such profoundly true and again I cry. I am embarrassed and try to be covert as I recall the reading in the Bible that we should not call attention to ourselves when we pray.

Has anyone else had this experience or have advice ?

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Sometimes during Mass I have intense experiences of love, gratitude and i cry. Other times I react to something in the readings or homily as such profoundly true and again I cry. I am embarrassed and try to be covert as I recall the reading in the Bible that we should not call attention to ourselves when we pray.

Has anyone else had this experience or have advice ?

Actually these experiences have nothing to do with the spiritual life and can be a great deception. Perhaps they indicate a special but passing " Blessing of the Holy Spirit " Paul and the other Apostles speak about. On the other hand they could be induced by the Evil One who did not hesitate to tempt Christ Himself. He is ever on watch for ways to cause confusion. The danger is that one may grow dependent on these " inspirations, " that is why one should avoid talking about them publically or even privately - except to one’s confessor. Remember many saints lived for years and years in spiritual dryness. The spiritual life is not about interior consolations but about doing God’s will in all things.

 

[Cominghome89]

Actually these experiences have nothing to do with the spiritual life and can be a great deception. Perhaps they indicate a special but passing " Blessing of the Holy Spirit " Paul and the other Apostles speak about. On the other hand they could be induced by the Evil One who did not hesitate to tempt Christ Himself. He is ever on watch for ways to cause confusion. The danger is that one may grow dependent on these " inspirations, " that is why one should avoid talking about them publically or even privately - except to one’s confessor. Remember many saints lived for years and years in spiritual dryness. The spiritual life is not about interior consolations but about doing God’s will in all things.

Mostly correct, but I would caution you on what you said at the beginning there. To say that these experiences of God’s love have “nothing to do with the spiritual life” is not true, although they can deceive us. God will work with many through spiritual dryness, thus testing and perfecting them in virtue. However, God can and does give deep experiences of His loving presence to people who He sees need this at times, also to perfect them in virtue. As St. Teresa of Jesus tells us, there is one God but He leads us “by many paths.”

The key is always to remember the fruits of prayer. St. Teresa explains that to worry about whether an experience in prayer is from God or the devil is not the focus we are to have, it is an irrelevant detail to dwell upon. The important part is “what do we do with it?” If a feeling of God’s love after receiving Holy Communion or hearing the Gospel read helps one to realize how undeserving he is of these favors, and leads him to a great love of his neighbor, patience with trials, etc., this experience has led to cooperation with grace. If the same experience leads him to think God favors him above others, that these experiences are to be expected every time he prays, the person has let himself be deceived.

So, these experiences are fine, God may use them. But, as was said above, we are never to expect or rely on them. The only test that we are growing in prayer is growth in virtue: love of neighbor, humility, detachment from earthly things, patience, gentleness. Whether God gives us experiences is of no importance: if you receive them, thank Him and ask that they always lead you to greater virtue; if you do not receive them, realize that God can work just as well in dry, difficult times of prayer, and that this is His will.

In Christ through Mary,
Frank

 

[R_C]

I am not sure if they have nothing to do with the spiritual life…while indeed they should be subject to spiritual direction, we have seen these feelings in the past being more widespread.

Sometimes the same happens to me. I do sometimes struggle because I want to offer myself to Christ with no consolation whatsoever, seeking no vision, no sensible experience. However I will only accept gladly and treasure in my heart every time that the Word of God or the Body of Christ touch my heart to the extent of bringing out tears. After all, if our Beloved cried, and if Our Lady cried, then there is nothing extraordinary about this. These feelings humble us, strengthen our devotion, and draw us closer to God.

They also depend on the stage of our spiritual life. It tends to be the case - I understand - that more advanced souls experience instead the bitterness of the cup of sorrows and the dryness of the cross, while the sweetness of the bread of life is more common in the beginning, when the soul needs to be nurtured and kept warm.

@Michaelscharge I indeed feel greatly embarrassed when this happens to me during Mass, though I don’t know if anyone ever noticed. I feel very ashamed when in the Novus Ordo we have to exchange the Sign of Peace, because people may notice something different So often I salute the people to my left and right, then kneel right away for the Agnus Dei. Just try to use a handkerchief when you have occasion to kneel during the liturgy, I guess

 

[DavidFilmer]

Why does it seem that Catholic devotion, theology, the founding of religious orders and other aspects of Catholic life are so influenced by visions and apparitions?

Apparitions might have played a role in some devotions and the founding of some Orders, but no apparition or vision since the Apostolic age has anything to do with Catholic theology.

 

[mercytruth]

Why does it seem that Catholic devotion, theology, the founding of religious orders and other aspects of Catholic life are so influenced by visions and apparitions? How does the church separate what it classifies as authentic and true versus what might be mere hallucinations or even demonic deceptions? Is it not sketchy to take someone at her word when it comes to these things?

St. John of the Cross has written quite extensively and thoroughly about this subject.
Visions, apparitions, locutions and the like according to St.John of the Cross can be delusional, from Satan, or from God.

He explains how one can usually discern from where such ‘supernatural’ occurrences are originating. Above all, even if they are from God, he does not place much value on them.
Union with God expressed by the two great commandments is the goal of Catholic spirituality.

So to answer your question, St. John of the Cross would be a very good source for discerning the difference. A qualified spiritual director is usually able to discern when given enough time to examine an individual’s spirituality and walk with God. It would seem that humility, obedience, doctrinal veracity, and a prayer life are some of the keys when discerning the difference.

God’s peace be with you

micah

 

[pablope]

How does the church separate what it classifies as authentic and true versus what might be mere hallucinations or even demonic deceptions? Is it not sketchy to take someone at her word when it comes to these things?

The CC has 2000 years of collective wisdom and experience to determine such.

1John 4:6… We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Apply the passage above…revelations (the real authentic ones) do not contradict what has been revealed…and one important factor is the odedience to the bishops/priests.

 

[obvious_ron]

Apparitions might have played a role in some devotions and the founding of some Orders, but no apparition or vision since the Apostolic age has anything to do with Catholic theology.

Wasn’t there a vision that stated “I am the Immaculate Conception”?

 

[R_C]

Wasn’t there a vision that stated “I am the Immaculate Conception”?

Our Lady of Lourdes!

On Thursday, March 25, 1858, Bernadette, who had never claimed that she had been seeing the Blessed Virgin, but only “a young damsel”, asked her again: “Would you be so kind as to tell me who you are?” And she replied in her popular language, Gascon Occitan, “Qué soï era immaculado councepcioũ”, which means “am the Immaculate Conception”.

This was a crucial element among many that demonstrated the authenticity of this private revelation: the dogma of the Immaculate Conception had been very recently defined by the Pope in Rome (1854) and the young illiterate girl of that modest country town had no idea of what those words even meant Indeed she said:

I went back to M. le Curé to tell him that she had said she was the Immaculate Conception, and he asked was I absolutely certain. I said yes, and so as not to forget the words, I had repeated them all the way home.

One can imagine the young girl repeating the unknown words again and again so as to not forget them before speaking to the priest.

 

[GaryTaylor]

St. John of the Cross has written quite extensively and thoroughly about this subject.
Visions, apparitions, locutions and the like according to St.John of the Cross can be delusional, from Satan, or from God.

He explains how one can usually discern from where such ‘supernatural’ occurrences are originating. Above all, even if they are from God, he does not place much value on them.
Union with God expressed by the two great commandments is the goal of Catholic spirituality.

So to answer your question, St. John of the Cross would be a very good source for discerning the difference. A qualified spiritual director is usually able to discern when given enough time to examine an individual’s spirituality and walk with God. It would seem that humility, obedience, doctrinal veracity, and a prayer life are some of the keys when discerning the difference.

God’s peace be with you

micah

St John of the Cross is also quoted in the CCC - Jesus Christ “MEDIATOR AND FULLNESS OF ALL REVELATION”

“In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say. . . because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty”

When the term “Mystic” is used in the CC, its meaning is one who Loves Jesus Christ and hears His Word.

Peace

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Why does it seem that Catholic devotion, theology, the founding of religious orders and other aspects of Catholic life are so influenced by visions and apparitions? How does the church separate what it classifies as authentic and true versus what might be mere hallucinations or even demonic deceptions? Is it not sketchy to take someone at her word when it comes to these things?

OR while accepting that both demonic and angelic/divine phenomena do take place also keep in mind that what we read is always mediated by others who add “spin” and interpretation and “wonders” that are acceptable literary devices (i.e. “hyperbole” = exaggeration for the sake of effect).

I remember being very dismayed to one day realise that the saints of old did not actually have a halo visible to others as they were portrayed in the holy books I used to read and the paintings I used to look at.

Much of what you speak of is no more than an adult version of the same thing.

 

[R_C]

I remember being very dismayed to one day realise that the saints of old did not actually have a halo visible to others as they were portrayed in the holy books I used to read and the paintings I used to look at.

Actually… we do know that some saints were endowed with characteristics proper of a glorified body, one of which is the “halo”. Now that was not granted to all, nor necessarily visible, but we do know of souls who were granted by God the possibility, for their own good, of seeing this phenomenon when at the presence of someone who would later be canonized.

I have two witnesses in mind (luckily I could quickly find the book and locate the exact paragraph )…one is Mother Ana de San Alberto, prioress, of who was assisting a Holy Mass by St. John of the Cross and saw Him surrounded by a great light as he took a rather long time for the celebration. Later in confession, she asked him why he was taking longer than usual, and when he tried not to answer, she said: “What if I were to tell you why you were taking so long?” to which St. John, surprised, asked: “Did you see something? How long did I take?” and she told her what she had seen and replied: “No time is long enough to experience the heavenly goods.” Several witnesses saw light come out from the confessional when he was in (in other occasions, I mean), and when one of them told St. John privately, he replied: “Be quiet, silly man, and don’t tell anyone!” These witnesses are taken from the reputable book “Vida y Obras de San Juan de la Cruz” by Crisogono de Jesus O.C.D.

This is one example, but of course it is not the only one. And we also know notoriously of Moses having this visible characteristic.

So while pious painters may have emphasized this characteristic by depicting all saints with such visible halos around their heads while in reality they looked like ordinary people, they were not deceiving you, for at least mystically they did have a special characteristic invisible to the human eye.

This same example of “visible light radiance” can be made with regards to the Holy Eucharist: no doubt, the host has (and is meant to have) the look of ordinary bread, however we read in the lives of many saints that at one time or another they did see the Eucharist radiate light, as for ex. represented in this beautiful painting.

 

[DavidFilmer]

Wasn’t there a vision that stated “I am the Immaculate Conception”?

Yes, but as R_C pointed out, this vision came (shortly) after the doctrine had been defined. So the doctrine was not based on the vision.

 

[obvious_ron]

Yes, but as R_C pointed out, this vision came (shortly) after the doctrine had been defined. So the doctrine was not based on the vision.

Does the apparition then stamp a seal on the doctrine?

Have any of these apparitions pointed to Christ? I seem to remember some giving instruction of their own accord. At the wedding feast, Christ fulfills His mother’s request. However, she then turns and tells the workers to do whatever Christ asks them.

What instructions have these apparitions given and then attributed them to Christ as their origin?

 

[Catholic80]

Why does it seem that Catholic devotion, theology, the founding of religious orders and other aspects of Catholic life are so influenced by visions and apparitions? How does the church separate what it classifies as authentic and true versus what might be mere hallucinations or even demonic deceptions? Is it not sketchy to take someone at her word when it comes to these things?

From my understanding, the Catholic Church does not require one to believe in approved apparitions to practice Catholicism. The teachings of the Catholic Church are complete without the apparitions, visions, mystics, etc. These are graces given to the human race, but are not required that we believe in them.

As for how do they discern the difference, there is a huge process that they go through. Often, apparitions aren’t approved of for many, many years. Medjugorja, for instance, is NOT approved by the CC. In fact, there are a lot of doubts that it is a true vision. One of the things that they look for in a supposed visionary or mystic is, “are they obedient to the Church?” among other things.

But, you are right, people can be fooled. For instance, the story of Sr. Magdalena of the Cross. She was a false mystic, but she fooled a LOT of people, including Bishops and priests and most of Spain. She was actually possessed by demons. A contemporary of hers, St. Ignatius of Loyola (a great discerner of spirits), was not fooled and refused to go see her. She was eventually discovered as being possessed and they did an exorcism on her. She repented fully and is actually a Saint known for her repentance. She spent the rest of her life doing penance and atoning for her sins.

So yes, great caution is needed when someone claims to have mystical experiences. But do know that when the Church does look into it, it is a long and arduous process that is not taken lightly. Often, it is discovered, that the person is mentally ill, or there is demonic influence, or they simply have an overactive imagination. In any case, belief in these things is not required to have faith in God.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Actually… we do know that some saints were endowed with characteristics proper of a glorified body, one of which is the “halo”. Now that was not granted to all, nor necessarily visible, but we do know of souls who were granted by God the possibility, for their own good, of seeing this phenomenon when at the presence of someone who would later be canonized.

I have two witnesses in mind (luckily I could quickly find the book and locate the exact paragraph )…one is Mother Ana de San Alberto, prioress, of who was assisting a Holy Mass by St. John of the Cross and saw Him surrounded by a great light as he took a rather long time for the celebration. Later in confession, she asked him why he was taking longer than usual, and when he tried not to answer, she said: “What if I were to tell you why you were taking so long?” to which St. John, surprised, asked: “Did you see something? How long did I take?” and she told her what she had seen and replied: “No time is long enough to experience the heavenly goods.” Several witnesses saw light come out from the confessional when he was in (in other occasions, I mean), and when one of them told St. John privately, he replied: “Be quiet, silly man, and don’t tell anyone!” These witnesses are taken from the reputable book “Vida y Obras de San Juan de la Cruz” by Crisogono de Jesus O.C.D.

This is one example, but of course it is not the only one. And we also know notoriously of Moses having this visible characteristic.

So while pious painters may have emphasized this characteristic by depicting all saints with such visible halos around their heads while in reality they looked like ordinary people, they were not deceiving you, for at least mystically they did have a special characteristic invisible to the human eye.

This same example of “visible light radiance” can be made with regards to the Holy Eucharist: no doubt, the host has (and is meant to have) the look of ordinary bread, however we read in the lives of many saints that at one time or another they did see the Eucharist radiate light, as for ex. represented in this beautiful painting.

R_C, in my parish was an older, married Filipino lady whom I used to help in the hall kitchen after Sunday mass. Over four years on perhaps 2 or 3 different occassions she told me that she could smell roses in my presence - usually after I made my yearly retreat. (As I am not a metrosexual my only external olifactory aids are deoderant, shaving cream and soap - and they are all as plain as possible and nothing that comes anywhere near roses).

Conclusions:

• I am canonisation material…hmmmn I do not think so.
• she is superstitious in the best of Spanish traditions… yes I think so.
• she has a personal spiritual olifactory gift…hmmmn, she would probably say so.
• there are unconscious/unrecognised psychological processes in play… oh yes I think so.

Do I believe all such cases are bogus - no I don’t but probably 99% are .

I forgot to add that my next door neighbour, a holy man by my standards, claimed he could see halos (he called them auras). For some reason my wife had a real humdinger of one while he had nothing at all good to say about me. Looks like I must have done something mortal in the intervening 10 years between these two persons.
Funny how such things co-incide with unrequited infatuation between opposite sexes.

 

[pablope]

Originally Posted by DavidFilmer
Yes, but as R_C pointed out, this vision came (shortly) after the doctrine had been defined. So the doctrine was not based on the vision.

Does the apparition then stamp a seal on the doctrine?

No, I do not think it gave the doctrine a seal of approval…it had already been proclaimed by the Church. What it did is it confirmed that the CC got it right…that indeed, as Christ promised, the HS guided, and continues to guide, the Church in its teachings and these teachings on faith and morals are free of error.

 

[DavidFilmer]

At the wedding feast, Christ fulfills His mother’s request. However, she then turns and tells the workers to do whatever Christ asks them.

What instructions have these apparitions given and then attributed them to Christ as their origin?

No apparition has the authority of Jesus, and nobody can claim that any apparation has such authority. All apparitions (since the Apostolic Era) are private revelations only - binding (at most) upon the individual(s) who received the prophesy (though they are completely free to individually reject the message, as are we all).

The Catholic Church cannot definitively ascribe divine merit to any such personal revelation without also insisting that such revelation is doctrinal and thus binding upon all of the Faithful. But this is not how the Church teaches.