Visit of His Beatitude Sviatoslav, Patriarch of the Ukrainian Catholic Church, to the Eparchy of New Westminster, BC

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ConstantineTG, is it a bad thing for me to say that I’m getting awesome ideas from what had happened? O:
 
5Loaves said:
Wasn’t this DL on Sept 1, a Saturday, not a Sunday when kneeling is prohibited? Or was it because it was a feastday, Liturgical New Year, you thought there shouldn’t be kneeling?
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Are we talking about a Saturday evening, vigil-for-Sunday DL? If so, I never kneel during those.
 
Peter_J said:
Hi all, latecomer to the discussion here.

Glad you clarified that – for a moment I thought that was an LC parish.
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They do rent out to a Korean RC congregation on Sunday afternoons. Funny thing is because we have the huge tabernacle in the middle of the Holy Table, they actually use the Tetrapod for Mass.

Their priest can always say the Mass ad orientem 🤷
 
Peter_J said:
Are we talking about a Saturday evening, vigil-for-Sunday DL? If so, I never kneel during those.
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I’m quite confused. You were at this Liturgy, not I. It didn’t sound like it was a vigil-for-Sunday DL.

So, you said
ConstantineTG said:
There shouldn’t be kneeling because it is the Divine Liturgy.
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I responded that there is indeed kneeling and prostrations at times in the Divine Liturgy-- that the prohibition is against “kneeling” on Sundays, rather than against kneeling in Divine Liturgy.

It sounds like you are now saying you do kneel except on Sundays, Saturday evening, vigil-for-Sunday DL. So, I don’t really understand what you were saying. I simply wanted to clarify that the prohibition is not for kneeling in Divine Liturgy as you were saying, but for kneeling on Sundays, and some other specific Feasts. New Year, the day of that LIturgy, isn’t a Major Feast, or a Feast of the Lord. In our Church Typicon as far as I know kneeling is not prohibited that day, tho as I said I have no idea what the UGCC Typicon stipulated for Sept 1st.
 
5Loaves said:
I responded that there is indeed kneeling and prostrations at times in the Divine Liturgy-- that the prohibition is against “kneeling” on Sundays, rather than against kneeling in Divine Liturgy.

It sounds like you are now saying you do kneel except on Sundays, Saturday evening, vigil-for-Sunday DL. So, I don’t really understand what you were saying. I simply wanted to clarify that the prohibition is not for kneeling in Divine Liturgy as you were saying, but for kneeling on Sundays, and some other specific Feasts. New Year, the day of that LIturgy, isn’t a Major Feast, or a Feast of the Lord. In our Church Typicon as far as I know kneeling is not prohibited that day, tho as I said I have no idea what the UGCC Typicon stipulated for Sept 1st.
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We are Latinized that we would kneel even during Pascha. There have been moves to stop kneeling at least during the Paschal season. This year is the first year that is was successful, at least for our parish. Last year despite the calls for no kneeling, people still knelt on Sundays of Pascha.

And as I said, the “no kneeling” as I understand it is in the nature of the Divine Liturgy. The no kneeling on Sunday comes from the fact that Divine Liturgy, back then, were only celebrated on Sundays. Yes, there are some exceptions, but they are exceptions.
 
How I learned it as an Orthodox, was that Sundays are mini-Paschas and so one does not show any penitential action. There is no kneeling from Pascha until Kneeling Vespers at Pentecost. At that service people kneel at the bidding of the priest, “On bended knees, let us pray to the Lord…”

It makes sense, but I remember a couple of our priests would venerate the Altar table before sunday matins…oh well, can’t tell a priest what to do…just a subdeacon…lol.

John
 
5Loaves said:
I’m quite confused. ** You were at this Liturgy, **not I. It didn’t sound like it was a vigil-for-Sunday DL.
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No, I wasn’t there either. Remember, I’m in the same country as you, just on the other side. (Which explains why you’re such a night owl. :D) *Constantine *was there.
5Loaves said:
I simply wanted to clarify that the prohibition is not for kneeling in Divine Liturgy as you were saying, but for kneeling on Sundays, and some other specific Feasts.
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I understand, but I’m wondering if you understand that the same way I’ve been interpretting it, i.e. to include Saturday evening vigils?
 
5Loaves said:
I responded that there is indeed kneeling and prostrations at times in the Divine Liturgy-- that the prohibition is against “kneeling” on Sundays, rather than against kneeling in Divine Liturgy.
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It is so unfortunate that so much confusion has been generated over liturgical postures, kneeling in particular, in our EC Churches over the past few years. It seems were still in this in-between phase in ironing out the effect of Latinization in this regard, and yet some of it is due to mixed signals from our Churches themselves.

I believe 5Loaves is correct in pointing out that kneeling, a penitential posture, is considered inconsistent with celebration and commemoration of the Resurrection. As each Sunday Divine Liturgy is considered a commemoration of the Resurrection, kneeling is not appropriate for Sunday worship. This would logically include a Vigil Divine Liturgy on Saturday (but only if it is truly a Sunday Vigil DL). The Resurrection is celebrated for the 40 days of Pascha, extended to Pentecost when kneeling in general is reintroduced into divine worship.

The original canonical source of this praxis is Canon XX of the First Council of Nicaea. Ironically, that Canon was introduced in 325 to harmonize praxis.
 
ConstantineTG said:
We are Latinized that we would kneel even during Pascha. There have been moves to stop kneeling at least during the Paschal season. This year is the first year that is was successful, at least for our parish. Last year despite the calls for no kneeling, people still knelt on Sundays of Pascha.

And as I said, the “no kneeling” as I understand it is in the nature of the Divine Liturgy. The no kneeling on Sunday comes from the fact that Divine Liturgy, back then, were only celebrated on Sundays. Yes, there are some exceptions, but they are exceptions.
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The old tradition is to not kneel from Vespers on Saturday evening, and resume kneeling again at Vespers on Sunday evening after the lighting of the lamps. (Council of Trullo, Canon XC) Also not kneeling during the entire fifty days of Pentecost. **CANON XC. **

WE have received from our divine Fathers the canon law that in honour of Christ’s resurrection, we are not to kneel on Sundays. Lest therefore we should ignore the fulness of this observance we make it plain to the faithful that after the priests have gone to the Altar for Vespers on Saturdays (according to the prevailing custom) no one shall kneel in prayer until the evening of Sunday, at which time after the entrance for compline, again with banded knees we offer our prayers to the Lord. For taking the night after the Sabbath, which was the forerunner of our Lord’s resurrection, we begin from it to sing in the spirit hymns to God, leading our feast out of darkness into light, and thus during an entire day and night, we celebrate the Resurrection.

**NOTES. **

ANCIENT EPITOME OF CANON XC.
From the evening entrance of the Sabbath until the evening entrance of the Lord’s day there must be no kneeling.

VAN ESPEN.
No doubt the synod by the words “we have received from the divine Fathers,” referred to canon xx. of the Council of Nice.

For many centuries this custom was preserved even in the Latin Church; and the custom of keeping feasts and whole days generally from evening to evening is believed to have been an Apostolic tradition, received by them from the Jews. At the end of the VIIIth Century the Synod of Frankfort declared in its xxj. canon, that “the Lord’s day should be kept from evening to evening.”(1)

fordham.edu/halsall/basis/trullo.asp
 
So if he’s busy doing something and I sneak up on him and put my head under his hands and say the words, is it a valid ordination? :p:D
 
ConstantineTG said:
So if he’s busy doing something and I sneak up on him and put my head under his hands and say the words, is it a valid ordination? :p:D
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According to some here of late, only if you can say the “magic [ordination] words” in Latin 😃
 
ByzCathCantor said:
According to some here of late, only if you can say the “magic [ordination] words” in Latin 😃
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Or an easier way is because the Bishops are Ukrainians, I can just bring out a case of Vodka, have a few rounds with them, maybe get them to ordain me then :D:D:D
 
ConstantineTG said:
Or an easier way is because the Bishops are Ukrainians, I can just bring out a case of Vodka, have a few rounds with them, maybe get them to ordain me then :D:D:D
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Ah, Vodka. The Ukrainian solution. 🙂
You’d still need that pesky dimissorial letter. 😉
 
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