Visit to Holy Name Carmel in Denmark, WI

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Praised be Jesus Christ! I am joining this conversation a little late, and I can see the movement of the conversation is not to discuss the Constitutions, so I apologize in advance. But for future reference, here is the thread on phatmass with more details on this, phatmass.com/phorum/topic/58540-the-discalced-carmelite-nuns-1990-1991-constitutions/

HolyHearts is correct in that the 1990s were not written by St. Maravillas. They are the Alcala Constitutions that Discalced Carmelite Nuns have followed since 1581 and were the ones St. Teresa exhorted her daughters to follow on her deathbed. The 1991 Constitutions are newly written and are pretty different from the old ones. They are also a lot longer. I am not saying one is better than the other. They are both approved and what is important is to grow in holiness and the love of Christ under either. And I agree with Ecce in that what matters regarding this in discernment is what God wants.

It is definitely true that there are some cases of 1991 Carmels being stricter in their observances than ones under the 1990s. The most traditional 1991 Carmel in the US is probably Cristo Rey in San Francisco. They keep many of the old practices like double grilles as well.

Double grilles were something in all Papally Enclosed monasteries up until the 1960s/70s. St. Charles Borromeo wrote the rules for cloistered nuns which included this. It was not something specifically in the Discalced Carmelite Nuns’ Constitutions nor specific to the time of St. Teresa. Although something specific to them which I have not seen an example of in other cloistered monasteries was the addition of spikes on the double grilles. You can see they are still at the Carmel of San Jose in Avila in the videos in this thread, phatmass.com/phorum/topic/109813-croatian-actress-professes-solemn-vows-in-avila/ If anyone can find spikes on the grilles of cloistered nuns in other orders, I would love to see them! I haven’t found any yet.

Carmels under the 1990 Constitution are most definitely not forbidden communication with the Discalced Carmelite Friars, nor totally separated from them. They remain in the same Order. They are just not juridically under the Father General.

But there are many examples of 1990 Carmels having OCD Friars come to give them spiritual conferences, retreats, novenas, etc. Last year Valparaiso had one for their annual retreat. They have had several of the Friars for events like this. Dallas has as well, and Buffalo.

I don’t think it was ever the intention of the nuns who preferred the old Constitutions to completely separate from the Friars. But given the trials/confusion that was happening in the Church after VII, they did what they did, with approval from the Holy Father, to protect the strict way of life that had been given to them by their Holy Mother.

Also, now one of the nuns who presented these Constitutions to JPII, her cause for beatification has been opened, madremariajosefa.es/
 
p.s. Ecce, I just read your posts in the Buffalo Carmel thread but can’t reply there, so thought I would here. That is so wonderful you are discerning with them. They are a very good community and I have a friend there as well 🙂

They are also a foundation of the Grand Rapids Carmel, like Denmark, although many years earlier in 1925.

They do pray the whole Office in Latin like Valparaiso, although it is the new Liturgy of the Hours. Valparaiso prays the O.Carm. old breviary, which is kind of a lot longer. But just to give you a heads up before visiting Buffalo. But don’t let that discourage you. They will help you ease into it. 👍

I wish you many blessings on your discernment! :crossrc:
 
Cloisters said:
The 1991 Constitutions were actually written by Rome, but the nuns lived them, then approved of their use. These constitutions are more flexible.
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Sorry to be going back to this again, but I felt this needed a little further clarification. They were collaboratively written by the OCD Father General (who yes, is in Rome) and the Friars and Nuns.
 
Okay, and one more post here for tonight 🙂 Ecce, in case you happen to also not feel called to Buffalo Carmel, you might want to try Iron Mountain. They pray the Office in English, with some Latin, and have many similarities to both Buffalo and Denmark also being a foundation from Grand Rapids. They have an excellent Mother Prioress as well. holycrosscarmel.com/

Or if you want to try a Carmel with French customs (differing from the ones you have visited which are all Spanish) I highly recommend both Des Plaines, IL and Lake Elmo, MN. Lake Elmo is also very blessed to have the O.Carm. hermits nearby who offer them the Sacraments and spiritual direction. They (Des Plaines & Lake Elmo) are similar in spirit and have new vocations as well. Their monasteries are not very beautiful, but the communities are good 👍

But of course, don’t try too many places! I hope I’m not adding to the confusion. God will let you know where He wants you 🙂
 
Thank you all for the lessons on the different Constitutions!

Personally, I tend more towards the '90s. . . I found myself somewhat longing for things from the 90 Constitutions when I visited this '91 Carmel. That’s why I called it “almost perfect.” I am now arranging a visit to Buffalo. . . I am very excited about this upcoming visit. It’s the one I’ve most looked forward to. So please pray for me!

Because this was a 91 Carmel (and I knew I preferred the 90 Carmels), I was worried about being biased in my explanation. So I tried to stick to what Mother told me about the Constitutions, and not put my own opinion into it.

However, the part about Mother Maravillas and the perceived rigidness of the '90 Constitutions verses the '91 Constitutions were things that I brought with me to my conversation with Mother. Before I visited, I’d read that Mother Maravillas was from the group of Carmelite Monasteries who rejected the '91 Constitutions - I didn’t mean to make it sound like she WROTE them. I brought it up to Mother Mary Elizabeth during our conversation because it was important to me that someone who had rejected the '90 Constitutions was beatified - it helped set my mind at ease that it wasn’t an act of disobedience. Mother kindly did not correct my error (Mother Maravillas died in '74!) and so it became part of the conversation when we talked about the different Constitutions. I actually questioned myself for keeping it in the explanation when I transferred it from my notebook onto this thread, because it had come from me, not her - but as it was a part of my conversation with her, I included it. Otherwise, I only wrote what she told me - using only her examples.

I really do appreciate the clarifications about the Constitutions. . . some things I knew, but some things I didn’t! I am new here, and I was initially concerned that the thread would turn from information about a particular Carmelite Monastery to a debate over which Constitution was better. I risked it and posted what she told me about the Constitutions because I thought it might be helpful to someone discerning to read what the Mother of a Carmelite Monastery that chose the '91 Constitutions had to say about the differences. But you are all very kind and helpful - no angry debates taking over. I’m glad that I had nothing to worry about!
 
Laudem -

Thank you! I was frightened away for a year after Valparaiso - second guessing my vocation. My Spiritual Director (Father Gabriel) and I are pretty certain now that it is a vocation to the Discalced Carmelites, and after my visit to Denmark (where I was relieved to find myself NOT spiritually dry and laboring at prayer) we narrowed it down to the 90 Constitutions. I’ve been writing and hoping to visit Buffalo since before Denmark, but Denmark was my favorite of the '91 Constitutions and it was within driving distance, so Father encouraged me to make the trip there first. I am so glad I did, but it has made me all the more eager to visit the Carmel in Buffalo. It is hard to stay away. 🙂

However, if I go and experience a similar dryness and difficulty as with Valparaiso, I think I will need to take some time with Father before visiting anywhere else. Like you said, I don’t want to try too many places. And I don’t want to be forcing my will.
 
Okay, maybe not just one more post for tonight 🙂 I came back here and thought I’d reply really quick to your post.

No worries, I don’t remember reading that you wrote St. Maravillas wrote them, but my posting that was in reply to Cloisters who did write that. HolyHearts posted the correct information, but I just thought I’d second it.

Also, I may not have the most accurate info there on who specifically is the auther of the 1991s. I was pretty sure it was a collaborative effort of the members of the Order, but the Congregation for Religious in Rome may have also actively taken part in writing the text as well. I was under the impression their role was to simply approve it or not, but they may have also written parts of it. Anyway, I just asked a friend of mine who knows more about this 👍

Also, another clarification, the male branch of both the Discalced Carmelites and Carmelites of the Ancient Observance (O.Carm.) are Friars not Monks, like Benedictines or Carthusians. I don’t mean to post this as a “know it all” though because most certainly I do not! It’s just info I’ve picked up over the years that I’m happy to share. But there’s a lot about Carmel I don’t know!

Finally, just a correction of what I wrote, Buffalo Carmel was founded in 1920 actually, but then their chapel was dedicated to St. Therese on the day she was canonized in 1925.

Okay, goodnight for now!
 
LaudemGloriae said:
Sorry to be going back to this again, but I felt this needed a little further clarification. They were collaboratively written by the OCD Father General (who yes, is in Rome) and the Friars and Nuns.
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I was going off an email from a 1991 Prioress: “Rome wrote them. We didn’t.” Then a well-connected OCDS said the nuns lived the draft constitutions and reported back on them.

Blessings,
Cloisters
 
Ecce_Ancilla_25 said:
Laudem -

Thank you! I was frightened away for a year after Valparaiso - second guessing my vocation. My Spiritual Director (Father Gabriel) and I are pretty certain now that it is a vocation to the Discalced Carmelites, and after my visit to Denmark (where I was relieved to find myself NOT spiritually dry and laboring at prayer) we narrowed it down to the 90 Constitutions. I’ve been writing and hoping to visit Buffalo since before Denmark, but Denmark was my favorite of the '91 Constitutions and it was within driving distance, so Father encouraged me to make the trip there first. I am so glad I did, but it has made me all the more eager to visit the Carmel in Buffalo. It is hard to stay away. 🙂

However, if I go and experience a similar dryness and difficulty as with Valparaiso, I think I will need to take some time with Father before visiting anywhere else. Like you said, I don’t want to try too many places. And I don’t want to be forcing my will.
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Visiting an O.Carm monastery might be productive. There is one in Pennsylvania which was founded by a friend of St. Therese’s prioress sister.

Blessings,
Cloisters
 
LaudemGloriae said:
Okay, maybe not just one more post for tonight 🙂 I came back here and thought I’d reply really quick to your post.

No worries, I don’t remember reading that you wrote St. Maravillas wrote them, but my posting that was in reply to Cloisters who did write that. HolyHearts posted the correct information, but I just thought I’d second it.

Also, I may not have the most accurate info there on who specifically is the auther of the 1991s. I was pretty sure it was a collaborative effort of the members of the Order, but the Congregation for Religious in Rome may have also actively taken part in writing the text as well. I was under the impression their role was to simply approve it or not, but they may have also written parts of it. Anyway, I just asked a friend of mine who knows more about this 👍

Also, another clarification, the male branch of both the Discalced Carmelites and Carmelites of the Ancient Observance (O.Carm.) are Friars not Monks, like Benedictines or Carthusians. I don’t mean to post this as a “know it all” though because most certainly I do not! It’s just info I’ve picked up over the years that I’m happy to share. But there’s a lot about Carmel I don’t know!

Finally, just a correction of what I wrote, Buffalo Carmel was founded in 1920 actually, but then their chapel was dedicated to St. Therese on the day she was canonized in 1925.

Okay, goodnight for now!
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If St. Maravillas didn’t write the 1990 Constitutions, then who did? I realize the Alcala Constitutions are in the middle of the document, but who wrote the remainder of the book?

Blessings,
Cloisters
 
Spikes – Louisville has little 2 inch spikes on their grille, which I am wanting to say may be double.

One of the 1991 Constitution Carmels did away with the grille completely, and has a parlor. The nuns wear brown and white street clothes.

Blessings,
Cloisters
 
The 1990 Constitutions were updated by Nuns from Carmels founded in Spain by Mother (St.)
Maria Maravelhas during the 1980s. They incorporated the Vatican 2 changes esp. liturgical changes into the Alcala Constitutions. They were approved by the Vatican in 1990. The 1991 Constitutions were approved in 1991. They were written by numerous people & not always OCD women nor men. After Vatican 2, the OCD Nuns drew up a document called “The Ratio”
which Rome accepted only as a temporary document until new Constitutions would be done. However, the Nuns, for various reasons, were never able to draw up anything acceptable to everyone. As a result, they went for a very long time w/o any real Constitutions. Some Nuns wanted to just continue w/The Ratio, but Rome did not approve of that. The 1990 Constitutions were drawn up during this long interim. They came out & were approved by Rome a year before the 1991 set which was done very quickly in order to give the other group Constitutions to follow. The urgency of having to produce another set of constitutions so quickly resulted in having outsiders work on them w/the approval of Rome…
 
HOLYHEARTS said:
The 1990 Constitutions were updated by Nuns from Carmels founded in Spain by Mother (St.)
Maria Maravelhas during the 1980s. They incorporated the Vatican 2 changes esp. liturgical changes into the Alcala Constitutions. They were approved by the Vatican in 1990. The 1991 Constitutions were approved in 1991. They were written by numerous people & not always OCD women nor men. After Vatican 2, the OCD Nuns drew up a document called “The Ratio”
which Rome accepted only as a temporary document until new Constitutions would be done. However, the Nuns, for various reasons, were never able to draw up anything acceptable to everyone. As a result, they went for a very long time w/o any real Constitutions. Some Nuns wanted to just continue w/The Ratio, but Rome did not approve of that. The 1990 Constitutions were drawn up during this long interim. They came out & were approved by Rome a year before the 1991 set which was done very quickly in order to give the other group Constitutions to follow. The urgency of having to produce another set of constitutions so quickly resulted in having outsiders work on them w/the approval of Rome…
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ah, makes perfect sense. i can understand the 1990’s consternation about the 1991 better.

i have a book on loan to me from a 1991 carmel called the ratio, but it’s dated 1993, and is the formation program for a 1991 carmel.

blessings,
cloisters
 
Yes, some Carmels still use The Ratio. They say it is good for formation. But the Constitutions do hold primacy according to Rome…
 
Really quick, I wanted to add here for clarification that I think HolyHearts you mean The Declarations rather than The Ratio. In Sr. Kate Kuenstler’s Fractured Face of Carmel (very bias again the 1990s as we know) she refers to them as the Declarations. I have also heard a couple 1990 Carmels, when speaking about that difficult period, refer to them as “The Declarations” as well.

But if I’m remembering correctly, I have also heard that some Carmels wanted to keep using the Declarations because they felt they were helpful in formation, so perhaps that is what The Ratio is now. There are a few versions of them here, carmelite.org.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?REFPAGE=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2ecarmelite%2eorg%2euk%2facatalog%2fOnline_Catalogue_CARMEL_IN_USA_43%2ehtml&WD=ratio&SHOP=%20&PN=Online_Catalogue_CARMELITE_DOCUMENTS_46%2ehtml%23a529#a529
 
I couldn’t help but notice the mentioning of some of the Carmels, particularly those in Des Plaines, Iron Mountain, and Grand Rapids. A relative of mine was discerning and visited the one in Des Plaines. She didn’t enter there, but another girl from a church I used to go to entered there. The one in Iron Mountain I visited (the lobby with an extern) while passing through on a family trip. We heard bells and remembered that there was a monastery there. Finally, Grand Rapids… While I’ve never been there, I have heard the history of that particular monastery and it is quite fascinating. There were some miracles involved. The reason I know is because I was told that by one of the sisters in one of the multiple Carmels that branched from Grand Rapids – namely, the Carmel in Traverse City, Michigan.

If anyone is looking for an excellent monastery that follows the '90 constitution, that one is a good one. There’s also a wonderful guest HOUSE to stay at when visiting. It is also just outside the city, so while it’s not in the wilderness, there’s a sense of solitude there that is harder to notice in a monastery located in the middle of a large city.
 
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