Visiting An Orthodox Church

[Diak]

Is there really any place within the U.S. that there is an Orthodox Church, but not any Catholic Churches of any of the Catholic Rites around that someone would have to drive a significant distance to get to a Catholic Church?

I have been in places where the reverse is true, but don’t believe that there is a place where an Orthodox Church is significantly closer than a Catholic Church in the U.S., maybe in Russia or Greece perhaps, but not here.

My point was that if you [and your family if appropriate] have made the effort to travel to do what several Magesterial documents have referred to as beneficial [experiencing the liturgy of the Eastern Churches] no canon lawyer or bishop will make you get back out just to attend Mass at a Latin parish again. That is just not sensible.

 

[Diak]

Quote:
It doesn’t.

I’m a bit surprised at “Chaldean”'s presumed absolute judgment on the matter. Perhaps he should reread the statement of Pope John Paul II regarding his own Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East before making such a statement which has already been demonstrated to not be in the spirit of several other Magisterial documents as discussed above.

If intercommunion is possible with a Church who does not use the “words of instutition” in the Anaphora, and who does not even accept as many Councils as most of the Orthodox world, I would most definitely challenge this assertion.

 

[Diak]

There are some very practical reasons why it wouldn’t be a good idea to regularly attend an Orthodox Church. For starters, you would be associating with people who hold varying degrees of hostility towards the Catholic Church. Some like the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia are staunchly anti-Catholic.

The question was not “regularly attend”, and there was no need to add that complication into the matter.

There are no “practical reasons” to prohibit any Catholic from visiting for educational reasons, especially in the light of the recommendations of the Council as well as several Magisterial documents to experience the liturgical and spiritual riches of the Christian East.

Like Alexis, my experiences with ROCOR have generally all been positive. When the Kursk Root Icon visited, the ROCOR starosta even invited me and some of my congregation who had visited with me to sing some troparia and hymns to the Mother of God in our Ukrainian melodies.

Likewise I have good relations with our local Serbian priest; he often invites us to come and attend services, and not too long ago I was even asked to cantor a baptism for some Macedonian friends in his parish. In neither case have I heard any “hostility” towards the Catholic Church.

Nearly all of my direct experiences with Orthodox anti-papal or anti-Catholic sentiments have been with a couple of zealous convert communities of the Antiochian Archdiocese. But in all honesty I heard more “hostility” directed towards the person of the Pope when I was teaching at an SSPX school as anything I have ever heard amongst the Orthodox.

 

[brigantine]

Nearly all of my direct experiences with Orthodox anti-papal or anti-Catholic sentiments have been with a couple of zealous convert communities of the Antiochian Archdiocese. But in all honesty I heard more “hostility” directed towards the person of the Pope when I was teaching at an SSPX school as anything I have ever heard amongst the Orthodox.

And thats because the Antiochians have a nasty habbit of allowing in protestants with little to no catacist
teachings. They come in with their anti-Catholic baggage and keep up their anti-Catholic crusade. Most converts to other jurisdictions, my self included, are required to learn about the Orthodox Church so we leave any baggage behind.

Just my 2-cents worth!

 

[Patchunky]

And thats because the Antiochians have a nasty habbit of allowing in protestants with little to no catacist
teachings. They come in with their anti-Catholic baggage and keep up their anti-Catholic crusade. Most converts to other jurisdictions, my self included, are required to learn about the Orthodox Church so we leave any baggage behind.

Just my 2-cents worth!

HOWEVER, not always the case.

Where I live, we 2 Antiochian communities; 1 “traditional” consisting of immigrants and “cradles” from the Middle East and the other converts with Frederika et al.

The “traditional” community has a big Festival and is very open to the public and very welcoming.

The other “community” is anti EVERYTHING including the sister traditional community. I had the opportunity to attend Vespers one Saturday when taking an ikon workshop being taught by a close friend. In a nutshell, I’d NEVER go back…

 

[brigantine]

Your right I should not paint them with such a broad brush but it is a problem with that jurisdiction. It was caused by the over zeal of Metropolitan Phillip to gain converts quickly. There are some that have come in that are great but others are just protestants in Orthodox clothing.

 

[Patchunky]

Your right I should not paint them with such a broad brush but it is a problem with that jurisdiction. It was caused by the over zeal of Metropolitan Phillip to gain converts quickly. There are some that have come in that are great but others are just protestants in Orthodox clothing.

Yes, I agree with you there… although the one parish here, the women wear burquas for DL and I don’t mean the “traditional” one either…

 

[brigantine]

Yes, I agree with you there… although the one parish here, the women wear burquas for DL and I don’t mean the “traditional” one either…

LOL! My friends daughter moved from NY to NC and she attended an Antiochian parish made up of protestant converts. The men wore Arabic turbans, and the women wore burquas. This woman was raised in the OCA and her family is all Russian. She and some other people there (OCA, ROCOR, and GOA) petitioned the OCA to start a mission because of the craziness at the Antiochian parish. It was granted and a Priest was sent to them.

 

[malphono]

None of the previous few post is surprising to me in the least. In my myopic view, the Antiochian Orthodox in the US have become, at least since the demise of Abp Anthony Bashir (and maybe before) a haven for, shall we say, liturgical and theological oddities

 

[Aramis]

The Antiochian Church has a special situation; they absorbed and canonically regularized a “Protestant Orthodox” community, the Evangelical Orthodox Church.

Their faith journey is an exquisite read. They were evangelicals, who got to doing exegesis on the scriptures, and discovered the call for liturgical worship and the Real Presence. This lead them to the DL of St. John, which they adopted. This lead them to Byzantine Spirituality and then Theology. They then came to realize they were not doing it right, since they were not properly ordained… and that lead them to seek union with the Eastern Orthodox. They are still a special situation within the Antiochian Orthodox Church.

They still tend to be a little more lax about converts, too, and still tend to be far more anti-papal in outlook than most of the Orthodox.

 

[CatholicLife]

Thanks for the replies! I asked this question because there is an Orthodox Church nearby and since I have never been inside of one I want to know if it was okay for me to visit. If I do go should I bow to the altar?

 

[Aramis]

Thanks for the replies! I asked this question because there is an Orthodox Church nearby and since I have never been inside of one I want to know if it was okay for me to visit. If I do go should I bow to the altar?

YES!!! Christ is present in their Tabernacle!

 

[Madaglan]

LOL! My friends daughter moved from NY to NC and she attended an Antiochian parish made up of protestant converts. The men wore Arabic turbans, and the women wore burquas. This woman was raised in the OCA and her family is all Russian. She and some other people there (OCA, ROCOR, and GOA) petitioned the OCA to start a mission because of the craziness at the Antiochian parish. It was granted and a Priest was sent to them.

It’s interesting (actually rather sad) how this works in both directions. Many converts take things to polar extremes: wanting to completely take on the culture in ways greater than the cradles themselves, or to distance themselves from these Orthodox cultures (considered hindrances) and stress an “American” Orthodoxy.

Right now I attend an Orthodox church that consists mostly of converts from a Protestant background. Previously I attended a church that had a much larger cradle base. I don’t see either as rabidly anti-Catholic. A Latin Catholic priest attends our Vespers several Saturdays a month in vestments, and nobody has ripped him apart yet.

 

[Madaglan]

The Antiochian Church has a special situation; they absorbed and canonically regularized a “Protestant Orthodox” community, the Evangelical Orthodox Church.

Their faith journey is an exquisite read. They were evangelicals, who got to doing exegesis on the scriptures, and discovered the call for liturgical worship and the Real Presence. This lead them to the DL of St. John, which they adopted. This lead them to Byzantine Spirituality and then Theology. They then came to realize they were not doing it right, since they were not properly ordained… and that lead them to seek union with the Eastern Orthodox. They are still a special situation within the Antiochian Orthodox Church.

They still tend to be a little more lax about converts, too, and still tend to be far more anti-papal in outlook than most of the Orthodox.

I haven’t had much contact with the Antiochians. This past summer, I attended an Antiochian Orthodox church in Pittsburgh. While there were many converts, there also were many cradles. The other Antiochian Orthodox church I attended was a Western Rite Orthodox church, which formerly was part of the Charismatic Episcopal Church. I keep on reading about the Evangelical Orthodox Church, but I haven’t really run into them (or former them) yet.

 

[Diak]

You can ask some of the Ben Lomond survivors what they think as well. It is interesting that the main liturgical “guru” for Ben Lomond (Fr. David Anderson) eventually went to the UGCC and now has a parish in Northern California.

Our experience was compounded since our kids were attending the co-op school at the convert Antiochian parish. It is one thing to go through being an outsider as an adult, another entirely to see your kids go through it.

I could reminisce for hours, but one particularly humurous incident - Khouria actually sent food with her kids when they visited our house to do something with my sons, not trusting me or my wife to properly keep the fast. And she only sent enough for them with none to share. We were going to have tuna without cheese or something similar, very simple.

She sent shrimp - much nicer than the food we were going to serve, but keeping with the letter of the fast. The first thing she asked when she came to pick them up was not “hello” but if her sons only ate the food she gave them.

 

[Diak]

The other Antiochian Orthodox church I attended was a Western Rite Orthodox church, which formerly was part of the Charismatic Episcopal Church.

The Western Rite - proof that uniatism is not the sole property of the Catholic Church. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[malphono]

The Western Rite - proof that uniatism is not the sole property of the Catholic Church. Thanks for the reminder.

Yes, indeed, and I have to add something:

it never ceases to amaze me that those branches of Orthodoxy that are the most guilty of “uniatism” are the same ones who are also the most vociferous (ok, maybe “nasty” would be more like it) in their condemnation of the Catholic Church for … “uniatism.” I guess they never heard the old saying “people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.”

 

[Patchunky]

You can ask some of the Ben Lomond survivors what they think as well. It is interesting that the main liturgical “guru” for Ben Lomond (Fr. David Anderson) eventually went to the UGCC and now has a parish in Northern California.

Our experience was compounded since our kids were attending the co-op school at the convert Antiochian parish. It is one thing to go through being an outsider as an adult, another entirely to see your kids go through it.

I could reminisce for hours, but one particularly humurous incident - Khouria actually sent food with her kids when they visited our house to do something with my sons, not trusting me or my wife to properly keep the fast. And she only sent enough for them with none to share. We were going to have tuna without cheese or something similar, very simple.

She sent shrimp - much nicer than the food we were going to serve, but keeping with the letter of the fast. The first thing she asked when she came to pick them up was not “hello” but if her sons only ate the food she gave them.

FDR,

I went to Vespers with friends tp Frederika’s parish; they were having a dinner with Vespers afterwards. It was during Great Lent and they were having a guest speaker on ikonography.

My friends took a veggie cassarole with a crumb topping. Not knowing my friends or me,Frederika gave us the 3rd degree including what was the dish made with. When she found out that there was veggie oil in the crumb topping, she went into the kitchen, got a 24" x 24" piece of brown wrapping and a magic marker and wrote NOT A FAST DISH on it and placed it OVER TOP of the veggie cassarole my friends brought.

At this point in time, I picked up the cassarole, looked at my friends and said, I"m outta here and we left. Thank God I was driving so they had to go with me.

I find your story about the shrimp hysterical 'cause don’t they consider shrimp forbidden during Fasting times??

 

[Boxcar]

I don’t agree. Anyone visiting another venerable Church of Apostolic Succession with a valid priesthood, hierarchy, and Sacraments for educational purposes should not need to incur this sort of negative sense of obligation to attend Mass again on the same day, especially if it involves travel at any significant distance.

From Orientale Lumen by the late Holy Father:

I seriously doubt any canonist would maintain that in the light of this Magisterial document as well as others Ut Unum Sint, Unitatis Redintegratio, Slavorum Apostoli, Orientalium Ecclesiarum, among others] that after experiencing “an integral part of the heritage of Christ’s Church”, including witnessing a valid Eucharistic Liturgy and hearing the lectionary readings according to that particular Church, that any scrupulous sense of “obligation” would remain.

As soon as we celebrate Easter on the Same date,does anyone know who is right on this date.

 

[malphono]

When she found out that there was veggie oil in the crumb topping, she went into the kitchen, got a 24" x 24" piece of brown wrapping and a magic marker and wrote NOT A FAST DISH on it and placed it OVER TOP of the veggie cassarole my friends brought.

The Syriac tradition, like the Coptic, doesn’t have the olive oil restriction, (and I suspect the Chaldean is similar), so this is a non-issue to me. But even among the Byzantines where the olive oil restriction does exist, the Greeks, (at least as far as I know), permit other types of vegetable oil, so it seems to me to be a stretch to extend that to all cooking oils. Yes, I know olives (and by extension, olive oil) are not native to the Slavic lands, but does that really mean any cooking oil is forbidden? Somehow, I doubt that the intent was to make Lenten food totally unpalatable.

Patchunky:

I find your story about the shrimp hysterical 'cause don’t they consider shrimp forbidden during Fasting times??

Yeah, the shrimp story is a hoot, and so is the casserole story.

But I think the shrimp deal is the “spine” thing. Crustaceans, mollusks, and cephalopods don’t have one, so they’re technically fair game (so-to-speak). So-called “fin-fish” on the other hand, do have a spine, and were traditionally off-limits (even in the Syriac tradition). Remember, too, that when the rules were put in place, crustaceans, etc., were not considered “luxury” items.