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Charlemagne_III
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:clapping:
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:clapping:
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Jelrak_TB
Guest
I do not wish to come across as particularly negative, but Hell does appear to be a form of punishment…one which no sane individual might choose to inflict upon him/herself…
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buffalo
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Code:
“There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.”
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HelenRose
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Have you ever heard anyone say, “I would rather go to Hell than to give him or her the time of day.”
Hatred is the motive. How hard it is to say, “I am wrong.”
That is the meaning behind the story of Satan. Satan wanted power over God. Satan and His angels were filled with hate.
We have a lifetime on Earth to change and to learn to love God. God gives us the grace and the chance. God is not a got’cha god.
Right now. Right this minute can you say, “God you are right, I am wrong. I will worship you, I give you my life, I want to be with you forever.” ?
If you won’t say it now there is no reason to think that you will be willing to say it when you die. It is your choice.
Hell is the absence of God. If we don’t want Him now, we won’t want Him when we die. Just like Satan we will hate Him for an eternity.
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HelenRose
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We were not made to be puppets. We are given free-will. Further more, we can not know who says “yes” to God. The worse sinner in the world may fall at His feet with love and gratitude. The proud righteous may scorn at the sinner and hate God for the forgiveness that He gives the sinner.
We can not know the mind of another person or the state of His soul when he or she dies. But they will know and they will make the final choice. It will be the choice we made when we were alive.
We can not know the mind of another person or the state of His soul when he or she dies. But they will know and they will make the final choice. It will be the choice we made when we were alive.
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Bradski
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A well written post, Helen.
I too feel in awe when I get the opportunity to see the night sky as it should be seen. But isn’t it funny we can come to completely opposite conclusions.
I came across a quote by Richard Feynman recently that summed up my view: ‘The stage is too big for the drama’. The more we know about what is ‘out there’, the less relevance it seems to have to us. We keep getting smaller and smaller and less significant in the grand scheme of things when it’s all meant to be for us.
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Viki63
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C.S. Lewis addresses the apparently awesome vastness of the universe. Bigness is not really a measure of meaning or value. Do we really ascribe more value to a tall person than a short one?
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thinkandmull
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That seems like a valid argument, but a universe of infinite size would contradict Aquinas’s philosophy
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buffalo
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The universe did not start out big. It is expanding and we are on the timeline where it is so vast.
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thinkandmull
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who is to say what is “too large for a drama”? That sounds rather relative
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thinkandmull
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A bigger universe does not have more importance than a smaller one. The inhabitants are more important than the house
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buffalo
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Interestingly enough man is nearly in the middle of the biggest distances and the smallest.
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HelenRose
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Thank you for the kind words. It has often interested me how people can look at the same thing and see it so differently. There was a time that I thought (almost childlike) that this or that situation is proof positive that whatever I was thinking would convince some one else of my position.
For instance: For 1,500 years the Church’s astronomers meticulously charted the night sky. Even though they studied and contributed to these charts and calculations they missed their meaning. It took Galileo, using these meticulously kept and beautiful charts, to grasp the message they gave.
We often condemn these astronomers because they missed the meaning. But we must appreciate the fact that they had kept and maintained the charts. For if they had not, Galileo would not have had the data on which to compare the movements of the stars and planets to formulate his theories.
We are all like those astronomers. We look, we see but we can not always understand. On a much simpler concept: Visualize an empty box. Each side, inside and out, is painted a different color. Then imagine all us of sitting around the box and describing it to each other. The box is black. The box is empty. We can’t see inside the box. The box is red and green. The box is purple and so on.
God is infinity more complicated than a box. Yet this is how we see Him if we just sit in one place and throw sand in each other’s eyes.
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Jelrak_TB
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It seems a pity C.S. was not Catholic…he had such a fine mind for problem solving…
Yet even so, he is not the same as Jesus, who made plain that it would be God who would be separating the wheat from the chaff, the goats from the sheep…at no point did Jesus suggest it would be the individual making such selections while God might look on in helpless sorrow…
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Jelrak_TB
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I have heard individuals say a great many things they would never actually do:
“I would crawl over broken glass to get my hands on the latest _______.”
An individual who might confront God in person and still refuse Him in favor of a land of eternal torment must certainly be mentally disturbed. Is it possible that only the mentally disturbed might be in Hell? For would one who did not love God necessarily also be one who far preferred an eternity of torment? How many here on Earth suffer along with parents they disdain simply because the alternative of living on the streets has even less of an appeal?
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HelenRose
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The story of the prodigal son may best explain what I mean. The father tries to bring the elder son into feast. We leave the story at that point not knowing whether or not he enters in to rejoice with his younger brother or decides to remain outside bitter and angry. The elder brother is not mentally ill. He is angry. He is mad at His father for forgiving his brother. This may be my story. It may be your story. Place yourself in the elder brother’s shoes. All he has to do to join the feast is to welcome his brother back home and rejoice with him. Will he do it?
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Jelrak_TB
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Fair enough…
Yet even the prodigal son eventually came to his senses when living the life of a servant…he was able to have time to assess and contrast his life without his father and to repent of the mistake…Hell, seemingly permanent, never allows for such a second chance…
(What is never clearly answered by the story is what becomes of him after his father has died…for he has squandered his inheritance and his brother is unlikely to permit him a share of his own.)
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HelenRose
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I think that we have to trust that God gives all of us sufficient grace and time to make the decision to love him. But, there will come a time that we could make up our minds and refuse to change.
Remember that we can not know when the moment comes in another person. We have to trust that God is merciful and just. If we think of Him as a gotcha type god that will strike a person down on his or her way to the confessional, the unfairness would be despotic. There are people who believe this. I don’t.
I think, that He probably expects far more out of “good” people than He does out of those who have had to struggle to survive. For instance, a person who has been abused and broken as a child would find His love and forgiveness for any step this person would make toward Him. But He has harsh words for the proud, the arrogant and the cruel. Because the proud and the arrogant may very well stand before the judgement and be indignant that a miserable druggie was accepted with open arms. The proud and arrogant will find it the hardest to say, “Lord, be merciful to me for I am a sinner.” It is the pride, arrogance that says, “I am the god of my life. I will have no other god to tell me what to do.”
I do not get into the debates about what Hell is because l don’t know. Whether it is a place or state of being, fire and brimstone, or is something else, I can honestly say I have no idea. But, I do believe that it is the absence of God. And, I do believe that it is our choice to make.
It interests me that I have this same discussion with fire and brimstone Catholics and Protestants as well as with atheists. It seems to me that they share the same image of God.
I don’t think of God as a warm fuzzy for sure. He did create the forces that make black holes and nebulae after all. But a despot would not have come to us with His arms outstretched with love.
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HelenRose
Guest
It is a story that Christ told. I think that he wants us to supply the ending. It tells us a lot about ourselves when we put ourselves in the shoes of the younger son and then put ourselves in the shoes of the elder son. I think we can relate to both. After we have children we can also relate to the father.
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
Actually it makes our existence on earth even more mind-blowing. A huge vast universe and only one tiny planet with life on it.
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