Vocation and people with 'issues'

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uglygal

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Hi!

I will try to make this short and seek people’s honest opinions and advice.
At my work I am friends with a co-worker who whilst general discussions we started speaking of religion and they mentioned exploring vocations to the religious life as a nun.
I then revealed to her that in the past I too had discerned vocations to religious communities and found that I was not called to such a life (this was many years ago). Our conversation continued.

I am not sure how to put this into eloquent words, so please be patient and bear with me, but here is my concern.
This person, and I tell you they are lovely and have a good loving heart, they have some ‘issues’ that due to my own past discerning and contact with religious communities, I feel may be problematic for them. These ‘issues’ being …
  • they had a nervous breakdown some ten years ago and have since recovered
  • they are on meds
  • they are 30(?) years of age and have NEVER had a boyfriend or any healthy relations with the opposite gender
  • they have NO friends and have lived virtually as a hermit in solitary confinement for some ten years
  • they have NEVER gone socialising with friends (because they don’t have any)
  • they do not know how to have social relations with anybody (except formal work / associate relations) and have confessed this to me.
I know these things from our conversations and by knowing them. I have been presenting myself to them as a friend (talking, asking to go out with me shopping / coffee etc / introduce to some people) but they shy away and simply do not know how to socialise.

Now, regarding the religious vocation. I have several concerns because …
  1. this doesn’t seem like a person fit for religious life … they think it makes them ideal and is even God preparing them for religious life …(to me this is wrong but then again I could be wrong)
  2. from my own discernment, I think religious communities will reject them for these things as they will be judged unfit (again i could be wrong)
  3. I suspect religious life is an ‘escape’ for such a person
  4. it all seems wrong and not right
  5. Since they have no one, God is everything to them, almost to the point of being an ‘imaginary friend’, I am worried that if they are rejected they will take the rejection very badly
  6. I am concerned that their relationship with God is also ‘wrong’ - like they view God as their imaginary friend.
I apologise as I said before I am truly finding it difficult to eloquently describe this.

I believe they have set their sight on God in a “well since no one likes me and I can’t get along with people, at least God will like me and have me” mentality. I am afraid for them if they get rejected by communities.

Please help! What can I say or do?
Or am I off track and should just step back.

I need advice please.
 
Well…it could be that this person needs counseling…or this person is called to be a hermit.

Funny…I wrote on a similar topic on my blog tis week, although I can’t say my challenges are the same. I (and my commenters) wrote of a certain alientation we sometimes sense, but I don’t think any of us are really anti-social.

We are ALL called to a particular Vocation, but something about your friend reveals that what she is experiencing is beyond the norm; there is something that has made her so reclusive, to such an extraordinary degree. Cloistered Nuns are VERY social, typically…for they are never really alone. Communities…involve socializing. One HAS to be able to get on with others.

So…pray for her, see if you can help her find a spiritual director or counselor, and perhaps she’ll better see where God is calling her. With your description, I more see a wounded soul than anything else. No doubt God is calling her to something…and no doubt He is calling you to help her get there. So to you…thanks for being her friend.
 
There are a couple things that make me go hmmmm

First, most communities would balk at the “on meds” part, from what I have gathered. I have seen one site say that if you are on meds you need to be off them for at least a year in order to prove to yourself that you can handle the situation in the community without the meds.

Second, the hardest part of ANY form of monastic life is that you live and work with the same people 24X7. You have to be able to get along with people. That doesn’t mean that you can’t be a militant introvert or a loner and a religious. I am proof that it can be done.

Third, there are two ways of running, running TO and running FROM. You cannot run from the world by joining a monastery. You are there to engage it on a deeper level.

Fourth, when you are alone with God, you are also alone with yourself. “inner demons” can really have a field day with you if you do not have the emotional strength to hendle it.
 
Thankyou for your advice Trilor and Adoro te devote.

I know about praying for her but at the same time I think God gives us hands and a mind … to DO something.
You are correct about the meds, I think most communities will not allow someone who is one them, likewise the past breakdown may raise questions.

I am wondering if I should tell her outright that her chances of being rejected are high … or if I should try to discourage her?
Maybe I should sit back and get ready to pick up the pieces.
I feel worried because I feel a very beautiful, albeit sad soul is going to get very hurt.

😦
 
Unless this person asks for you opinion, which is all you have, then you should keep out of it as you really have no place in this at all.

If what you say is true, which we here at the forum can not know because all we have is your word on this and do you truly know this person well enough to judge them as unfit for a religious vocation.

You are not the person to judge this in them.

My suggestion would be to advise this person to get a good spiritual director as everyone who is discerning a call to religious life should have one.

Other than that there is not much you can do. Leave it to them and those vocation directors she chooses to contact.

In my book posts like this are bordering on gossip.
 
uglygal said:
Hi!

I will try to make this short and seek people’s honest opinions and advice.
At my work I am friends with a co-worker who whilst general discussions we started speaking of religion and they mentioned exploring vocations to the religious life as a nun.
I then revealed to her that in the past I too had discerned vocations to religious communities and found that I was not called to such a life (this was many years ago). Our conversation continued.

I am not sure how to put this into eloquent words, so please be patient and bear with me, but here is my concern.
This person, and I tell you they are lovely and have a good loving heart, they have some ‘issues’ that due to my own past discerning and contact with religious communities, I feel may be problematic for them. These ‘issues’ being …
  • they had a nervous breakdown some ten years ago and have since recovered
  • they are on meds
  • they are 30(?) years of age and have NEVER had a boyfriend or any healthy relations with the opposite gender
  • they have NO friends and have lived virtually as a hermit in solitary confinement for some ten years
  • they have NEVER gone socialising with friends (because they don’t have any)
  • they do not know how to have social relations with anybody (except formal work / associate relations) and have confessed this to me.
I know these things from our conversations and by knowing them. I have been presenting myself to them as a friend (talking, asking to go out with me shopping / coffee etc / introduce to some people) but they shy away and simply do not know how to socialise.

Now, regarding the religious vocation. I have several concerns because …
  1. this doesn’t seem like a person fit for religious life … they think it makes them ideal and is even God preparing them for religious life …(to me this is wrong but then again I could be wrong)
  2. from my own discernment, I think religious communities will reject them for these things as they will be judged unfit (again i could be wrong)
  3. I suspect religious life is an ‘escape’ for such a person
  4. it all seems wrong and not right
  5. Since they have no one, God is everything to them, almost to the point of being an ‘imaginary friend’, I am worried that if they are rejected they will take the rejection very badly
  6. I am concerned that their relationship with God is also ‘wrong’ - like they view God as their imaginary friend.
I apologise as I said before I am truly finding it difficult to eloquently describe this.

I believe they have set their sight on God in a “well since no one likes me and I can’t get along with people, at least God will like me and have me” mentality. I am afraid for them if they get rejected by communities.

Please help! What can I say or do?
Or am I off track and should just step back.

I need advice please.
Click to expand...
Suggest they get tested for Aspergers high-functioning autism–that’s exactly what this is sounding like. Aspies can oftentimes adapt really well to the eremitical way of life.

Blessings,
Cloisters
 
alright I think I know how to deal with this.

It is not my intent to gossip about someone but to ask for advice on what I should do. sorry if that is gossiping to you ByzCath.
 
Yeah, luckily, your not the one that has to reject them or even say anything about it. I think you should continue to pray for them, ask them to do things with you, and be a good friend. 🙂
 
uglygal said:
Thankyou for your advice Trilor and Adoro te devote.

I know about praying for her but at the same time I think God gives us hands and a mind … to DO something.
You are correct about the meds, I think most communities will not allow someone who is one them, likewise the past breakdown may raise questions.

I am wondering if I should tell her outright that her chances of being rejected are high … or if I should try to discourage her?
Maybe I should sit back and get ready to pick up the pieces.
I feel worried because I feel a very beautiful, albeit sad soul is going to get very hurt.

😦
Click to expand...
I think you should just sit back and be there to pick up the pieces, if there are any pieces to pick up in the end.

By telling her that chances of being rejected are high and telling her all of this… it is not going to save her hurt. She is going to hurt, but it will just be from you. I think a Vocation Director should handle this. They have experience in this, and this is their job.
 
ByzCath said:
Unless this person asks for you opinion, which is all you have, then you should keep out of it as you really have no place in this at all.

If what you say is true, which we here at the forum can not know because all we have is your word on this and do you truly know this person well enough to judge them as unfit for a religious vocation.

You are not the person to judge this in them.

My suggestion would be to advise this person to get a good spiritual director as everyone who is discerning a call to religious life should have one.

Other than that there is not much you can do. Leave it to them and those vocation directors she chooses to contact.

In my book posts like this are bordering on gossip.
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Couldn’t this have been worded a little better? I don’t think it was your intent, but it seems like your wording is more like scolding than helping. I don’t believe UglyGal is trying to gossip, she’s just trying to get some help for a friend. I don’t think there is anything wrong with that. She’s not naming names, or saying anything ugly either. Let’s be supportive here, not scolders. God bless!
 
uglygal said:
Hi!

I will try to make this short and seek people’s honest opinions and advice.
At my work I am friends with a co-worker who whilst general discussions we started speaking of religion and they mentioned exploring vocations to the religious life as a nun.
I then revealed to her that in the past I too had discerned vocations to religious communities and found that I was not called to such a life (this was many years ago). Our conversation continued.

I am not sure how to put this into eloquent words, so please be patient and bear with me, but here is my concern.
This person, and I tell you they are lovely and have a good loving heart, they have some ‘issues’ that due to my own past discerning and contact with religious communities, I feel may be problematic for them. These ‘issues’ being …
  • they had a nervous breakdown some ten years ago and have since recovered
  • they are on meds
  • they are 30(?) years of age and have NEVER had a boyfriend or any healthy relations with the opposite gender
  • they have NO friends and have lived virtually as a hermit in solitary confinement for some ten years
  • they have NEVER gone socialising with friends (because they don’t have any)
  • they do not know how to have social relations with anybody (except formal work / associate relations) and have confessed this to me.
I know these things from our conversations and by knowing them. I have been presenting myself to them as a friend (talking, asking to go out with me shopping / coffee etc / introduce to some people) but they shy away and simply do not know how to socialise.

Now, regarding the religious vocation. I have several concerns because …
  1. this doesn’t seem like a person fit for religious life … they think it makes them ideal and is even God preparing them for religious life …(to me this is wrong but then again I could be wrong)
  2. from my own discernment, I think religious communities will reject them for these things as they will be judged unfit (again i could be wrong)
  3. I suspect religious life is an ‘escape’ for such a person
  4. it all seems wrong and not right
  5. Since they have no one, God is everything to them, almost to the point of being an ‘imaginary friend’, I am worried that if they are rejected they will take the rejection very badly
  6. I am concerned that their relationship with God is also ‘wrong’ - like they view God as their imaginary friend.
I apologise as I said before I am truly finding it difficult to eloquently describe this.

I believe they have set their sight on God in a “well since no one likes me and I can’t get along with people, at least God will like me and have me” mentality. I am afraid for them if they get rejected by communities.

Please help! What can I say or do?
Or am I off track and should just step back.

I need advice please.
Click to expand...
I find it refreshing that you care so much about this girl to want to help. So many people are consumed with their selfishness that they are not willing to help anyone but themselves. God bless you for your care and concern. This girl has a true friend in you.

That being said, I think you should just provide the same support you’ve been providing. If you go further, you could potentially damage a vocation, unintentionally. She may have a genuine vocation; one that would require her to open up, or she might have a vocation to the eremitical life as you suggest. If that’s the case, then it is something she must sort out with the community that she joins and God. Not every community could dismiss her. I know of some that are very open (not too open, but supportive enough to at least allow the person to live the life to discern further).

If she asks you for advice, this would be a window, but broach the subject gently. Politely tell her that she should get a spiritual director to help her discern. If you know of a good priest, nun, sister, brother, etc. that you think might be able to help, tell her when the window is opened. Other than that, she might not want to accept advice.

Again, your support is awesome! God bless you and your friend :crossrc:
 
I have noticed people with problems like this often think they feel called to the religious life. It’s a structured environment, and religious (the good ones at least) tend to be kind, joyful, compassionate people- people with “issues” are attracted to that aspect of them. Religious are this way because they build themselves up, and then build each other up. Although sickness and other difficulties arise in communities and are dealt with through understanding and commitment, everyone needs to join the community as physically, spiritually, mentally, and emotionally healthy individuals. Nobody should weigh down the community with “issues”.
 
I don’t think this post is gossip or bordering on it; I think you’re sincerely looking for advice, and that’s legitimate. If you gave her name, location, etc…that would be gossip.

That said…it’s not your place to either encourage or discourage. You can be a listening ear. And you can help her find what she DOES need which is an SD or counselor, or perhaps both. Is there a priest or sister you can refer her to? Help her find someone?

It’s really hard to find an SD (spiritual director)…I’ve been looking for years and can’t find one, and I’m discerning! But maybe you know a good priest with whom you are friendly, and can ask if he’ll meet with your friend to offer her some assistance. Maybe not permanent spiritual direction, but maybe to give her somewhere to go, even if a referral to a good counselor.

But do NOT by any means think it’s your place to discourage her. Just be a friend. Listen. Empathize. Love. Above all…PRAY.

Let God reveal Himself to her. That’s what He does. Our job as peers…just listen, point to God. In all things, He is in charge. When you are tempted to give advice…point to a priest, point to Adoration.
 
m134e5 said:
I have noticed people with problems like this often think they feel called to the religious life. It’s a structured environment, and religious (the good ones at least) tend to be kind, joyful, compassionate people- people with “issues” are attracted to that aspect of them. Religious are this way because they build themselves up, and then build each other up. Although sickness and other difficulties arise in communities and are dealt with through understanding and commitment, everyone needs to join the community as physically, spiritually, mentally, and emotionally healthy individuals. Nobody should weigh down the community with “issues”.
Click to expand...
This thread has me a little puzzled - What exactly are ‘issues’…which gives the impression that some people’s problems just cannot be mentioned or something like that:confused: What are ‘issues’?

The above post has some truth, but not the truth entirely. There is no such thing as a human being without problems somewhere in their makeup - St. Therese for example had been spoilt as a child which she freely admits and confronted in Carmel with housework duties and having to do laundry duty etc. etc., she was quite overwhelmed and found it difficult. Not a mental illness some say and completely true. What some are unaware of is that some mental illnesses are not as problematic as some behavioural problems by a very long shot. Sometimes a neurotic person is certainly not mentally ill but has a far bigger life problem to self and others than a person who may have a mental illness.
Mental illness is totally misunderstood and the term scares ‘the normal’ silly often - so much so one has to scratch one’s head and wonder where on earth they are coming from!!!:confused:

One superior of a community has told me that certainly none of the sisters have a mental illness per se, but some are big problems to the community generally anyway.

People with some forms of mental problem are quite able to live a completely ‘normal’ life in every way as a contributing member and could make an adjustment happily into religious life and close community living. Sadly, the cloister as well as most all areas of The Church still have middle age silly notions the moment a mental problem is mentioned in some way.

To my mind rather than who will and who will not fit into the religious community, a more important question is “Is God calling this person to religious life?”. I am not saying that the question of the good of the community is not a factor, but it should not be the only deciding factor for absolutely sure and especially in religious life. A year or more postulancy was once meant to be the time for the community to decide whether a person can or cannot fit into religious life, and whether the person had a vocation or not. As were the noviciate years also, although after a year the community and leadership should have a pretty accurate idea of the person, and vice versa.
Nowadays I have been told, it is felt it is to be too disturbing for the community to have a potential member such as a postulant or novice leave if it can be avoided…ohhhh boo hoo for the poor overly sensitive neurotic women in the community:( …

Barb:)
 
uglygal said:
Hi!

I will try to make this short and seek people’s honest opinions and advice.
At my work I am friends with a co-worker who whilst general discussions we started speaking of religion and they mentioned exploring vocations to the religious life as a nun.
I then revealed to her that in the past I too had discerned vocations to religious communities and found that I was not called to such a life (this was many years ago). Our conversation continued.

I am not sure how to put this into eloquent words, so please be patient and bear with me, but here is my concern.
This person, and I tell you they are lovely and have a good loving heart, they have some ‘issues’ that due to my own past discerning and contact with religious communities, I feel may be problematic for them. These ‘issues’ being …
  • they had a nervous breakdown some ten years ago and have since recovered
  • they are on meds
  • they are 30(?) years of age and have NEVER had a boyfriend or any healthy relations with the opposite gender
  • they have NO friends and have lived virtually as a hermit in solitary confinement for some ten years
  • they have NEVER gone socialising with friends (because they don’t have any)
  • they do not know how to have social relations with anybody (except formal work / associate relations) and have confessed this to me.
I know these things from our conversations and by knowing them. I have been presenting myself to them as a friend (talking, asking to go out with me shopping / coffee etc / introduce to some people) but they shy away and simply do not know how to socialise.

Now, regarding the religious vocation. I have several concerns because …
  1. this doesn’t seem like a person fit for religious life … they think it makes them ideal and is even God preparing them for religious life …(to me this is wrong but then again I could be wrong)
  2. from my own discernment, I think religious communities will reject them for these things as they will be judged unfit (again i could be wrong)
  3. I suspect religious life is an ‘escape’ for such a person
  4. it all seems wrong and not right
  5. Since they have no one, God is everything to them, almost to the point of being an ‘imaginary friend’, I am worried that if they are rejected they will take the rejection very badly
  6. I am concerned that their relationship with God is also ‘wrong’ - like they view God as their imaginary friend.
I apologise as I said before I am truly finding it difficult to eloquently describe this.

I believe they have set their sight on God in a “well since no one likes me and I can’t get along with people, at least God will like me and have me” mentality. I am afraid for them if they get rejected by communities.

Please help! What can I say or do?
Or am I off track and should just step back.

I need advice please.
Click to expand...
I think most religious orders will sort this out in the discernment process. Not having had a boyfriend/girlfriend would not be a disqualifying issue but I imagine that not having healthy relationships with members of the opposite sex is problematic as may some of the other issues.

Religious life is not meant to be hiding from the world. In fact, it would amaze many people the number of issues within religious communities (arguments, family issues and so on). Just look on Youtube for some of the profiles of monasteries and so on. This is not an escape. ByzCath can certainly speak to this better than I can since he is a member of a residential religious community.

Not everyone who seeks religious affiliation does so (not necessarily addressing your friend) for healthy reasons. Some forms can be almost pathological (these are the people who seek escape or focus on the rules of religiosity) versus real inner conversion and sanctification.

I imagine that ByzCath’s point is that this is something for a discernment process to discover and deal with. It is very difficult for us to know someone’s heart.
 
CarmeliteGirl25 said:
I find it refreshing that you care so much about this girl to want to help. So many people are consumed with their selfishness that they are not willing to help anyone but themselves. God bless you for your care and concern. This girl has a true friend in you.

That being said, I think you should just provide the same support you’ve been providing. If you go further, you could potentially damage a vocation, unintentionally. She may have a genuine vocation; one that would require her to open up, or she might have a vocation to the eremitical life as you suggest. If that’s the case, then it is something she must sort out with the community that she joins and God. Not every community could dismiss her. I know of some that are very open (not too open, but supportive enough to at least allow the person to live the life to discern further).

If she asks you for advice, this would be a window, but broach the subject gently. Politely tell her that she should get a spiritual director to help her discern. If you know of a good priest, nun, sister, brother, etc. that you think might be able to help, tell her when the window is opened. Other than that, she might not want to accept advice.

Again, your support is awesome! God bless you and your friend :crossrc:
Click to expand...
Great post with good sound advice … and great witness - thank you, CG!👍 …it is also a very balanced post I thought.

Barb:)
 
BarbaraTherese said:
This thread has me a little puzzled - What exactly are ‘issues’…which gives the impression that some people’s problems just cannot be mentioned or something like that:confused: What are ‘issues’?
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I have been told many times by those who work in formation and vocations that those people who have no “issues” are the ones who need to be watched closest.
 
Well, I don’t think it is for us to decide on her vocation.
That being said, a person in religious life does need to be able to live in community. Now she may be able to do that, I don’t know.
She’ll have to investigate that herself.
She may be interested though in hearing about hermits and consecrated virgins. They are vocations that many people do not know about.
 
Well, I don’t think it is for us to decide on her vocation.
Click to expand...
…👍
That being said, a person in religious life does need to be able to live in community. Now she may be able to do that, I don’t know.
She’ll have to investigate that herself.
Click to expand...
I am still puzzled as to what exactly “issues” are, but one certainly has to be able to live in community or in close proximity to others and that she can be accepting and understanding. Usually such discerning by leadership in a community begins the process of discerning this with the actual application to enter. The final discerning by community and leadership as to suitability I think can only be finallly discerned once the person actually enters and begins to live the life. Once it did apply that postulancy certainly and to a lesser degree the noviciate years were years of final mutual discernment by community, leadership and the actual person. During these years a person was quite free to leave, which they still are, but it seems to enqiries I have made that postulancy and noviciate seems to have lost that quality of being trial periods of discerning.
If I was in community leadership and an applicant for entry claimed to have no problems (“issues”:confused: ), I would be highly suspicious indeed - and as ByzCath (actually in community life) commented, would be inclined as leadership to watch this person rather closer than others if she did enter.
Very sadly and indeed quite wrongly, here in Australia no religious order will even remotely consider me since I suffer Bipolar despite the fact my psychiatrist who understands religious living would recommend me. Never once has any Order considered that I might have a vocation and be called by God - except one Carmelite Order which sadly is probably dying out due to lack of young vocations. Mother Prioress wrote a beautiful email to me speaking highly of mature aged vocations but sadly they could not accept me due to prevailing conditions. She asked me why on earth I would think Bipolar immediately excluded me. Now that is an enlightened and educated viewpoint. She also asked most sincerely that we stay in touch.
She may be interested though in hearing about hermits and consecrated virgins. They are vocations that many people do not know about.
Click to expand...
Important vocations in Church life:thumbsup:
In our diocese we have a nun attached to the Vocations Office who helps women in their discerning process and can advise on all the different religious orders etc. and the eremetical and consecrated virgin (Order of Virgins) vocations.

Barb:)
 
ByzCath said:
I have been told many times by those who work in formation and vocations that those people who have no “issues” are the ones who need to be watched closest.
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…👍
Seems to me that if I think I have no problems/‘issues’ (:confused: )…then I probably have the most serious problem and issue of allhttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_13_14.gif
 
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