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ethelzguy
Guest
Petty? And just how “petty” would it be, for someone to pursue a priestly vocation while harboring a distaste for the Ordinary Form of the Mass.
What we don’t need, is more rogue priests working against Rome.
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What we don’t need, is more rogue priests working against Rome.
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BrendanD
Guest
I think you guys should call the Pope and let him know the FSSP and ICKSP that he approves of are harboring rogue, insincere, difficult, pretend priests. Really, you can’t play the “I’m with Rome” card when you reject societies approved by the Pope.
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strugglingalong
Guest
How is a dislike for the Novus Ordo against Rome? All - every single one - of the priests that I know that offer the traditional Latin Mass exclusively are also entirely faithful to the Magisterium and to the Pope. I know not one who is not. Just because one may think the Novus Ordo was harmful to the life of the Church does not mean they are against Rome. The Novus Ordo was not a part of Vatican II so there cannot be granted any infallibility. In fact the council Fathers never would have dreamed of a New Mass and originally the proposed New Mass was rejected by the majority of Bishops. There is nothing binding one to have to offer the Novus Ordo in order to be fully faithful to the Magisterium.
Pax Christi tecum.
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ethelzguy
Guest
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ethelzguy
Guest
Pope Benedict XVI has made it very clear that the Novus Ordo Mass is in good standing.
How would a priest being against, or declining to celebrate the OF be any different than a Catholic family that practices ABC?
Welcome to Luby’s
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eelpis
Guest
Why not join the Jesuits they might need a new start.
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strugglingalong
Guest
Well the first claim that the Vatican II Council never dreamed of a New Mass, just read the council documents on the liturgy. Nothing in them calls for a new revision of the liturgy. Nothing calls for new prayers. What is called for is more vernacular but that Latin be retained.Please document the above claim.
Thanks
Second, the 1967 Synod of Bishops where they rejected a proposed New Mass is mentioned by Cardinal Ottaviani (once head of the CDF) and Cardinal Bacci in their critical study of the New Mass:
“In October 1967, the Episcopal Synod called in Rome was required to pass judgement on the experimental celebration of a so-called “normative Mass” (New Mass), devised by the Consilium ad exsequendam Constitutionem de Sacra Liturgia. This Mass aroused the most serious misgivings. The voting showed considerable opposition (43 non placet), very many substantial reservations (62 juxta modum), and 4 abstentions out of 187 voters. The international press spoke of a “refusal” of the proposed “normative Mass” (New Mass) on the part of the Synod. Progressively-inclined papers made no mention of it. In the Novus Ordo Missae lately promulgated by the Apostolic Constitution Missale Romanum, we once again find this “normative Mass” (New Mass), identical in substance, nor does it appear that in the intervening period the Episcopal Conference, at least as such, were ever asked to give their views about it.” (catholic-pages.com/mass/ottaviani.asp)
Pax Christi tecum.
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BrendanD
Guest
Most FSSP and ICKSP priests refuse to say the NO, and they’re in good standing with Rome. Comparing them to people using ABC and calling them rogues is total disobedience to the Pope, who approves of them and recently gave them their own parish in Rome.
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strugglingalong
Guest
Catholic obedience to the ordinary Magisterium does not mean that if we encounter something we see as detrimental to the Faith that we have to accept it. Every word and choice of a Pope is not infallible. They can be wrong. In this case many priests and laity have found the decision for a New Mass as detrimental. Refusing to offer it is not rejection of the Magisterium or the Pope’s authority.Pope Benedict XVI has made it very clear that the Novus Ordo Mass is in good standing.
How would a priest being against, or declining to celebrate the OF be any different than a Catholic family that practices ABC?
Welcome to Luby’s
At times we may be called on to dissent from non-infallible decisions that are detrimental to the Church. Dr. Dietrich von Hildebrand taught that was the Catholic approach. Here is another quote from the man called a 20th century Doctor of the Church by Pope Pius XII:
“All disciplinary authority, all obedience to a bishop presupposes the pure teaching of the Holy Church. Obedience to the bishop is grounded in complete faith in the teaching of the Holy Church. As soon as the ecclesiastical authority yields to pluralism in questions of faith, it has lost the right to claim obedience to its disciplinary ordinances.” (The Devastated Vineyard, pp. 3-5)
Plus Benedict XVI has approved orders and associations that ONLY offer the Traditional Latin Mass, such as the Institute of Christ the King and FSSP. He is also very sympathetic of the SSPX. So you cannot say that someone wanting to offer only the traditional Latin Mass is somehow against Rome when Rome itself approves of these priests who only offer the TLM.
Pax Christi tecum.
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ibkc
Guest
So according to ethel, a preference for the Gregorian Rite is now a mortal sin.
This forum really is out of control, but it isn’t the fault of the trads. That’s for sure.
This forum really is out of control, but it isn’t the fault of the trads. That’s for sure.
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eelpis
Guest
The name is a joke.
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BrendanD
Guest
Both forms of the Mass are exactly equal, so it’s ok for a priest to only say the NO and refuse to say the TLM. But a priest can’t only say the TLM, even if the Pope says it’s ok. Got it
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strugglingalong
Guest
Yep. To prefer the Gregorian Rite, just as ICK or FSSP does with the approval of the Pope, is somehow disobedience to that same Pope?
By the way, here is the “Ottaviani Intervention” as it is called online: catholic-pages.com/mass/ottaviani.asp Their critical study is really good and brings out a lot of the issues with the New Mass. I recommend it for those who think it is wrong to prefer the TLM/Gregorian Rite.
Pax Christi tecum.
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strugglingalong
Guest
The name is a joke? Wow. That name has come from the Vatican itself, principally by the head of Ecclesia Dei there if I am not mistaken with the approval of the Pope.
The liturgy does originate with St. Gregory the Great so the name makes sense actually, to show that that liturgy originates not from the Ecumenical Council of Trent but rather from St. Gregory.
Pax Christi tecum.
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Tommy_Joe
Guest
To those of you who feel offended by a Priest who only wishes to say one form of the Mass; * What say you to the Priests who now openly refuse to say the Extraordinary Form of the Mass*???
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BrendanD
Guest
I don’t think he meant the name Gregorian Rite is a joke. He meant calling this forum “Traditional Catholicism” is a joke.
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OnlyAmbrose
Guest
I think he meant the name of the forum.
eelpis isn’t one to call anything traditional a joke.
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strugglingalong
Guest
Oh, oops! Sorry! I didn’t realize. Please accept my apologies.I think he meant the name of the forum.
Pax Christi tecum.
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peregrinator_it
Guest
I have been following this thread, waiting to see what sort of practical vocation advice would be given only to watch it fall victim to the inevitable liturgical sniping.
I have to say, I’m always mildly suprised when someone looking to pursue a religious/priestly vocation tries to pick an order based on liturgy alone. I would think determining whether you are called to the charism of the order (e.g. contemplation & preaching for the Dominicans; radical eremitic poverty & detachment for the Carmelites) would be more important. But that may just be a female perspective.
OP, I don’t think there’s anything wrong in having a devotion to the TLM. However, I strongly take issue with the statement below (my emphases.)
I hope other posters will forgive me for being repetitive, but I say that your statement is untrue because I have experienced the opposite. I’ve attended a OF parish almost all my life where the Mass was offered in Latin, with chant, with Communion distributed at the altar rail. (In fact, I learned a heck of a lot more chant (responses, multiple Mass settings, hymns, antiphons, sequences, Psalm tones) than I ever would have at my local TLM, as chant wasn’t often used in High Masses there.) There is no reason why these practices could not be continued in the OF Mass. They are not out of place; the “New Mass” does not reject them.
Traditionalists lament that Vatican II severed Church from its traditions, but then with statements like “chant and Communion kneeling are inherent to the TLM” they sever the thread of tradition themselves! I’m sorry to rant but this sort of thing really annoys me.
Back to the topic of vocation-- it is true that most religious communities (especially monastic ones) will not accept candidates until they are debt free. (Because the community has to provide part or all of food, shelter, clothing, medical expenses for all its members, it really can’t assume debt.) However, if you are serious about joining a community debt (even large amounts) can be dealt with fairly easily.
I paid off the last bit of my student loans (roughly $10, 000) in 6 months (despite living in pricey CA and not making much money) by having roommates, cutting all unecessary spending, not driving a car (this may not be practical for everyone.)
I believe there is an organization, the St. Joseph Labre Foundation, that will help you fundraise in your parish & community to pay off your debt.
Finally, if you have found the community you are called to, God will provide. I know a (now) nun who had a bit more student loan debt than you. It was a major obstacle to her entrance to the monastery until one of the monastery’s anonymous donors agreed to take on her student loans.
I have to say, I’m always mildly suprised when someone looking to pursue a religious/priestly vocation tries to pick an order based on liturgy alone. I would think determining whether you are called to the charism of the order (e.g. contemplation & preaching for the Dominicans; radical eremitic poverty & detachment for the Carmelites) would be more important. But that may just be a female perspective.
OP, I don’t think there’s anything wrong in having a devotion to the TLM. However, I strongly take issue with the statement below (my emphases.)
The bolded bit of your post above is a major cause of the sniping on this board. To say that Gregorian chant and kneeling for Communion are “inherent in the traditional liturgy” is baloney- simply untrue.
I hope other posters will forgive me for being repetitive, but I say that your statement is untrue because I have experienced the opposite. I’ve attended a OF parish almost all my life where the Mass was offered in Latin, with chant, with Communion distributed at the altar rail. (In fact, I learned a heck of a lot more chant (responses, multiple Mass settings, hymns, antiphons, sequences, Psalm tones) than I ever would have at my local TLM, as chant wasn’t often used in High Masses there.) There is no reason why these practices could not be continued in the OF Mass. They are not out of place; the “New Mass” does not reject them.
Traditionalists lament that Vatican II severed Church from its traditions, but then with statements like “chant and Communion kneeling are inherent to the TLM” they sever the thread of tradition themselves! I’m sorry to rant but this sort of thing really annoys me.
Back to the topic of vocation-- it is true that most religious communities (especially monastic ones) will not accept candidates until they are debt free. (Because the community has to provide part or all of food, shelter, clothing, medical expenses for all its members, it really can’t assume debt.) However, if you are serious about joining a community debt (even large amounts) can be dealt with fairly easily.
I paid off the last bit of my student loans (roughly $10, 000) in 6 months (despite living in pricey CA and not making much money) by having roommates, cutting all unecessary spending, not driving a car (this may not be practical for everyone.)
I believe there is an organization, the St. Joseph Labre Foundation, that will help you fundraise in your parish & community to pay off your debt.
Finally, if you have found the community you are called to, God will provide. I know a (now) nun who had a bit more student loan debt than you. It was a major obstacle to her entrance to the monastery until one of the monastery’s anonymous donors agreed to take on her student loans.
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strugglingalong
Guest
peregrinator_it,
First, your comments on liturgy and vocation. To me, liturgy is primary in my life. It is my main form of worship of God and it is the way in which the Holy Sacrifice of Calvary is given to me again at Holy Mass. It is paramount, of which I know you’d agree. Of course I consider charism and apostolic work and type of community but if you’re going to serve Christ in a particular way and if you think the TLM is the best form of worship to God then you’d want them both.
As to your problems with the argument that kneeling while receiving Our Lord and Gregorian Chant being inherent in the TLM and not in the NO: the issue is that the TLM requires these things. I’ve never seen a TLM without them while I have seen 98% of NO’s without them. Your experience of the Novus Ordo with Latin and chant and kneeling to receive Our Lord is a true blessing I am sure but it is by far the exception. I’ve only been to one NO like that in my entire life and I was surprised by it. There is nothing in the rubrics requiring it and the common practice for reception of Holy Communion is standing (that practice has been accepted by the Bishops conferences and even the Vatican). My point is that you’d never see a TLM where people receive standing or without Gregorian chant or without kneeling. You’d never see a TLM where the priest invents new greetings like: “Welcome to Mass, did you see the football game last night?” because there isn’t an openness to innovation. That is what I mean by those actions being inherent whereas I think your experience of the Novus Ordo is by all means extraordinary and nothing in the New Mass would call for or require it.
You say my comment about the TLM is baloney but it is only baloney because of your experience which is rare. I could find hundreds of Catholics who have attended thousands of NO’s who never once had even one of those things you mentioned that are inherent in the TLM. The NO can be done with those things (and I pray the day comes when they are) but nothing in the NO requires them and it hardly ever happens.
Finally, thank you for your encouraging words on my vocation. I did not intend for this thread to become all about liturgy but it is true that I posted it in here because Tradition is very important to me so the traditional Holy Mass is important to my discernment.
It’s such a blessing to hear about getting debts paid off! I am trying to sell my car and get a far less expensive one (so if anyone wants to pray for that intention I’d be blessed by it) so I can pay more on my student loans. Your words encourage me to live a more frugal life and to make sure I get them paid down. One order I looked at today will take men up until age 40 so maybe I could get it paid off by then. I know when it comes down to it that if God wills it He’ll provide. I have to trust that.
I have heard of foundations that will help pay off debts to enter religious life. It seems that you need to be accepted into one though to apply for their help but I do keep them in mind. Thank you for mentioning it!
First, your comments on liturgy and vocation. To me, liturgy is primary in my life. It is my main form of worship of God and it is the way in which the Holy Sacrifice of Calvary is given to me again at Holy Mass. It is paramount, of which I know you’d agree. Of course I consider charism and apostolic work and type of community but if you’re going to serve Christ in a particular way and if you think the TLM is the best form of worship to God then you’d want them both.
As to your problems with the argument that kneeling while receiving Our Lord and Gregorian Chant being inherent in the TLM and not in the NO: the issue is that the TLM requires these things. I’ve never seen a TLM without them while I have seen 98% of NO’s without them. Your experience of the Novus Ordo with Latin and chant and kneeling to receive Our Lord is a true blessing I am sure but it is by far the exception. I’ve only been to one NO like that in my entire life and I was surprised by it. There is nothing in the rubrics requiring it and the common practice for reception of Holy Communion is standing (that practice has been accepted by the Bishops conferences and even the Vatican). My point is that you’d never see a TLM where people receive standing or without Gregorian chant or without kneeling. You’d never see a TLM where the priest invents new greetings like: “Welcome to Mass, did you see the football game last night?” because there isn’t an openness to innovation. That is what I mean by those actions being inherent whereas I think your experience of the Novus Ordo is by all means extraordinary and nothing in the New Mass would call for or require it.
You say my comment about the TLM is baloney but it is only baloney because of your experience which is rare. I could find hundreds of Catholics who have attended thousands of NO’s who never once had even one of those things you mentioned that are inherent in the TLM. The NO can be done with those things (and I pray the day comes when they are) but nothing in the NO requires them and it hardly ever happens.
Finally, thank you for your encouraging words on my vocation. I did not intend for this thread to become all about liturgy but it is true that I posted it in here because Tradition is very important to me so the traditional Holy Mass is important to my discernment.
It’s such a blessing to hear about getting debts paid off! I am trying to sell my car and get a far less expensive one (so if anyone wants to pray for that intention I’d be blessed by it) so I can pay more on my student loans. Your words encourage me to live a more frugal life and to make sure I get them paid down. One order I looked at today will take men up until age 40 so maybe I could get it paid off by then. I know when it comes down to it that if God wills it He’ll provide. I have to trust that.
I have heard of foundations that will help pay off debts to enter religious life. It seems that you need to be accepted into one though to apply for their help but I do keep them in mind. Thank you for mentioning it!
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