Vocations Needed. Why are parents so stingy?

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This has been an interesting read. I’ve seen both sides of the coin on this one:

A friend in college was discerning a call to the priesthood - he used to talk with me about how upset his mother was every time he brought it up. He was an only child and she would continually throw out “don’t you want children?” even though both his parents raised him to be the kind of man who would answer God’s call. It upset him deeply… though in the end, he discerned he was not called to the priesthood and is now married with two beautiful children.

One of my co-workers has been working as an engineer for four or so years, but has been going through a major discernment process… and he just put in his notice so he could go to the seminary this fall. His family (lots of sisters, only one brother, I think) is THRILLED for him. (I am, too - since we see each other at daily mass, I’ve known for months!)

And as a side note, when my fiance and I were walking out of our Engaged Encounter weekend a couple months ago, he turned to me and said, “I hope we have some boys so we can give them to God for the Church” (or something like that)… did God find me a winner or what? 🙂 I pray He gives us the grace necessary to remember that any children He blesses us with are ultimately HIS.
 
As mentioned above, I speak as a grandfather, cradle Catholic. I do not believe that a married priesthood would lead to a corrupt, hereditary caste. My parish was chosen a few years ago to host a priest transferring from the Anglican communion. He became a priest in the Catholic Church and our curate. His wife and 2 children came with him and the whole family became much loved and he was a greatly respected priest. He is now in charge of a neighbouring parish and much loved there too. If it was right to welcome this man–and it surely was–why are we so frightened of letting our own priests marry if they so choose?

I would go further and ordain women priests. My experience as a Catholic layman over many years has led me to the conclusion that in almost every parish there are women called to the priesthood but debarred by a man-made rule which is not God-inspired or just in human terms.
 
As mentioned above, I speak as a grandfather, cradle Catholic. I do not believe that a married priesthood would lead to a corrupt, hereditary caste. My parish was chosen a few years ago to host a priest transferring from the Anglican communion. He became a priest in the Catholic Church and our curate. His wife and 2 children came with him and the whole family became much loved and he was a greatly respected priest. He is now in charge of a neighbouring parish and much loved there too. If it was right to welcome this man–and it surely was–why are we so frightened of letting our own priests marry if they so choose?

I would go further and ordain women priests. My experience as a Catholic layman over many years has led me to the conclusion that in almost every parish there are women called to the priesthood but debarred by a man-made rule which is not God-inspired or just in human terms.
It sounds like the Anglican decided to believe like a Catholic and that you decided to believe like an Anglican.
 
i cannot speak for anyone else but my mom and dad dont want me to be a brother of the sacred heart because they want grand children.
Seek the Lord’s will for your life, not your parents. You should follow your heart to Your vocation, not your parent’s vocation. They’ll just have to adopt.
 
I can’t understand how good, faithful Catholics can feel this way toward priesthood, ie not want their children to be priests or enter religious orders. I’m now expecting my first baby and pray that if it is God’s will that my child serves Him in this way. I would be the most proud woman on earth if my son decided to be a priest.
 
I would go further and ordain women priests. My experience as a Catholic layman over many years has led me to the conclusion that in almost every parish there are women called to the priesthood but debarred by a man-made rule which is not God-inspired or just in human terms.
Oh dear. Perhaps you could go and read about the last supper, what Jesus did there, and who was with him. Just a thought.
 
Well, I have read about the Last Supper, as you might expect, and can see no relevance to the woman priest debate.

Throughout my adult Catholic life I have attempted to understand the point of view of those who oppose the ordination of women. In most of life’s great debates you can at least understand where your opponents are coming from and in some cases learn to respect their views and in a very few cases have your ideas changed by their arguments. However, despite listening respectfully, I have never heard yet an argument against the ordination of women which is coherent or worthy of respect. In all cases, it has boiled down to asinine comments about the Apostles all being men or some such nonsense. Sometimes we get the desperate “The Church has spoken therefore no debate” attempt to bully although this is less common as people realise where this sort of clericalism got us in the child abuse crimes by priests.

This is relevant to the debate about parents being stingy about vocations, just as the debate about celibacy is. An inclusive Church needs an inclusive priesthood. Could someone just spell out in simple and logical language why women are debarred from the priesthood?
 
I think its a little of everything with parents. Parents wants there kids to suceed and sometines the priesthood isnt what they have in mind. Some parents are too over protected and dont want anything happening to them and most want grandchildren.But no matter how good their attentions are the devil takes many forms and we should be more open to kids being interested in serving the Holy Roman Catholic Church
 
I’m from a quite a Catholic family and there was a time when my cousin, who was the only son, and he had three sisters, felt he was being called to be a priest. His parents didn’t seem bothered by it, and at the same time my brother was also wondering, and my brother and this particular cousin were very close, so there was often jokes about them becoming priests together! My dad, who was a convert wasn’t too happy, especially since the family name was very important to him - so much so he wouldnt’ let my mum allow them to adopt male chidlren because he didn’t want non-biologically related kids carrying on his last name! In the end, both discerned that marriage was their vocation and now they’re good Catholic husbands to their good Catholic wives.

The other side of this, which makes me laugh, is our Sittee (gran) is really old skool Catholic, Lebanese and gives a lot of time to Marian devoution - she even got arrested outside an abortion clinic when she was in her 70s! When my bro and cousin were discerning priesthood, no one dare mentioned it to our Sittee because we knew she’d get on the bandwagon and really push them for it. She had often joked that, though sometimes it wasn’t sounding like a joke, that there should be a priest and a nun from each generation of a family!

I’ve been discerning being a nun for years, (first got the “call”? perhaps, when I was 5) and while my mum knows, no one else knows in the family, except for my aunty who actually asked my mum if I was discerning this vocation because she got a spiritual sense abotu it. My mum is happy for me to do this, however, she thinks I need to do it for the right reasons and can’t rush into it because I dont’ have a relationship or I’m tryign to escape the real world or whatever.

So from my experience it tends to be everyone has a different opinion, some parents are happy for their kids to go down that path, while others are not. everyone has their own reasons, but at the end of the day, its the child being called to the vocation not the parent, so the parent shouldn’t force the kid into it. It could end up doing a lot of harm.

I mean, who wants to go see a priest who’s only a priest because he was forced into it?
 
Gallowglass,

The church is inclusive, surely, because it is catholic. But this cannot be adduced as an argument in favor of the ordination of women; Paul’s principle in Corinthians counters this. A body has many members, i.e., organs with different positions and functions. To use the church’s catholicity as an argument for the ordination of women seems to be, in the end, a begging of the question.

What’s more important is the question of reasons for reserving the priesthood to men only.

The structure of Revelation is this: God reveals and we accept in faith. Theology is backwards. Theology takes what has been revealed and offers explanations for why it is the case.

The problem with the (irreformable) church doctrine which restricts ordination to men is that it is a revealed given. It has been handed on to us in the deposit of the faith.

Some people mistakenly turn things around. They seem to think that we have particular principles by which we reason to this doctrine, thus establishing it as a certain demonstration. Thus, they reasonably conclude, that if they lack or cannot see these reasons, that they are free from accepting the conclusion. But this could not be further from the truth.

Rather, we are given the doctrine, and once given the doctrine we seek to understand it. This is the classic fides quarens intellectum– faith seeking understanding. We try to find reasons to support what we must accept in faith.

Any Catholic who balks at accepting this doctrine because the reasons seem deficient has thus, at least to some degree, missed the point. Theology is about finding reasons for what we must accept on God’s authority. We must accept, as a tenet of the faith, that ordination is reserved for men. Theology has the job of trying to find reasons for this. Now surely God has reasons for this, but we are not always privy to God’s reasons, and we cannot see the world in the way God sees it. Thus our theological reasoning often falls short. But we should not, on this account, not accept any given doctrine of faith. If our reasoning merely falls short, then we truly accept the doctrine on faith. If on the other hand, our reasoning detects a contradiction, then we must labor to remove whatever that contradiction is.

The one who bases his acceptance of a doctrine of faith on demonstrative reasoning treats doctrines of the faith as though they were naturally knowable truths and not revealed truths. This must be borne in mind especially with the doctrine whereby the church declares that she has not been given the power to ordain women to the priesthood. It is not a doctrine reachable by natural reasoning, because it was God’s free choice to make His church in this way.

So, to answer your question: the theological speculation about the doctrine is just that: speculation. It undoubtedly will fall short. The church merely teaches that it has not received the authority to ordain women, and we speculate as to why God only gave the church the authority to ordain men, instead of women as well.

Now, I think I’ve adequately answered why one need not 1. adduce arguments in favor of doctrines of the faith. On the other hand, if you have any 2. arguments which you think contradict the faith, i.e., reasons which seem to show that the church is wrong, then I’d be happy to help you to refute them. I am most concerned with pushing obstacles out of the way. Accepting the doctrine is a work of grace, which you yourself must grapple with, through the difficult act of putting your will into obedience to the Lord… and I know how difficult it is. But if I can be of help is getting rid of supposed reasons why the church must be wrong… then I’ll have done my part. 😃 God bless,

Rob
 
I experienced being hindered by my parents to enter the seminary.
 
RobNY

I appreciate your thoughtfulness and kindness in putting your ideas forward. I mean no disrespect to you personally when I say that I do not understand a word of the reasoning.

My layman’s experience of Catholicism and long studying of the arguments have led me to the view that no reasonable assessment of Christ’s teaching would give any support to the idea that he meant to debar 50% of human beings from the priesthood because they are women.Why would He? And experience of parishes and individuals suggest to me that many women are eminently suited to the priesthood.

I think the arguments in favour are quite clear and capable of being expressed in clear, coherent language. The arguments against are always like yours ie swathed in obscure language and convoluted and --forgive me–incomprehensible reasoning.
 
My layman’s experience of Catholicism …
And yet, the universal tradition of the Church supports this doctrine, as well as the living magisterium. This is the sure sign by which we know doctrine to be true. How can a Catholic safely reject universal tradition and the living magisterium, and still think himself to be wading in safe waters? Aren’t these reason enough for holding to the doctrine?
Why would He? And experience of parishes and individuals suggest to me that many women are eminently suited to the priesthood.
I think the prime error that people make when treating the question of priesthood and women is to treat the priesthood as if it is an ordinary job which people can have or not based on merit.

Discrimination, particularly sexism, is an evil of which we are especially conscious at this time. The world always fluctuates in evaluating its favorite causes and its favorite vices, and the ‘first-world’ countries have-- God be praised-- come to understand how evil racial discrimination and sexism are.

I think that’s the background where most of us come to the question of women and the priesthood. And so it comes naturally to us to treat it as we would any other job… say as a police officer or firefighter, a carpenter or a lawyer… we ask merely well, she’s qualified, isn’t she? And we can’t see anything else as being relevant.

I’ve very sympathetic with this intuition. I’ve thought over it a lot, and I see that it plays into your own response. See how you note that women are eminently suited for priesthood. What else are you saying except this: when I look at a list of functions which priests need to be excellent at, it seems that women are equally as qualified at fulfilling any of these functions. Could women preach well? Counsel well? Of course. Well, then one has no basis on which to deny women the priesthood, if they can fulfill all of these functions equally as well.

On further reflection, I’ve found that the error in this line of reasoning is very subtle and very fundamental-- so much so that it is hidden from our view.

Why is sexism so bad? Isn’t it because it is a form of injustice? Why is it so bad for someone to deny a job to an equally qualified women? Well, because it is an injustice. And justice and injustice are a fairly simple matter for us to understand, conceptually. Justice is simply giving to others what you owe to them. Injustice is depriving others of what is owed to them. Sexism is an injustice because it deprives women of what is rightfully theirs. It is a textbook case of injustice.

The problem with treating the priesthood as a matter susceptible to sexism is that it assumes that it is susceptible to injustice, i.e., to the entire context of being just or unjust. I may not be clear. Let me explain.

Between God and man there is no strict obligation of any sort. God does not and cannot owe any creature anything on the basis of Who He is. It would be a defect in His supreme perfection if His creatures could obligate Him or put Him into a relationship of obligation to them. I think this is why St. Paul insists that we cannot be justified before God by works of the law. After all, the worker enters into a relationship of strict justice with his employer. The worker does specific work, and as a result, the employer is obligated to pay him a wage. Or, as St. Paul says in the Epistle to the Romans, “Now to one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due.” (Rom 4:4). That’s why we relate to God by faith and not by works.

The whole problem with assuming that there would be something wrong with God or the Church disbarring women from entering the priesthood seems to fundamentally assume that priesthood is an honor which human beings ascend to based on merit of some sort. In other words, if you are sufficiently pious and otherwise well qualified, you ought to be a priest, and no one ought to deprive you of it. But the Scriptures are clear that the opposite is the case. Hence the Epistle to the Hebrews says that “And one does not take the honor upon himself, but he is called by God, just as Aaron was” (Heb 5:4). In other words, priesthood is a gift, not something due.

Referring back to Paul’s verse from Romans above, this should be a clear indication that priesthood does not come to human beings on the basis of merit, but purely as a gift.

If priesthood is purely a gift, then God is not obligated to give it to anyone. Furthermore, if it is purely a gift then God is not unjust is depriving anyone of it. It simply cannot be unjust to fail to give to someone what is not owed to that person. So God simply cannot be unjust in failing to make women to be priests. It is literally impossible that this be a ‘sexist’ action on God’s part, for to be sexist, an act has to be unjust… and this simply cannot be unjust.

I grant you, to our contemporary mindset it seems surprising that God didn’t choose women to be priests. But that doesn’t mean that God isn’t within His rights to act this way. It is an opportunity for reflection and humble submission to God.
I think the arguments in favour are quite clear…The arguments against are always like yours ie swathed in obscure language and convoluted and --forgive me–incomprehensible reasoning.
I could definitely be clearer. It is a vice of mine. On the other hand, there are principles and ways of thinking that one must learn in order to do theology. There is no promise from God that all doctrine will be readily understandable to any layman. Therefore, if one balks at holding to a doctrine because one doesn’t understand the explanation, then one is not making a responsible decision in faith, for it is possible that one simply lacks the tools by which to evaluate it.

God bless,
Rob
 
By the way, you mentioned arguments which you think are very clear and simple, which are in favor of women’s ordination. I mentioned in my last post that I would be happy to discuss these arguments with you, and find refutations of them. As Catholics, we hold that there can be no true demonstrations of truths which contradict doctrines of the faith, and so I would like to help you to find whatever errors may subtly lurk in these arguments. If you’d prefer, I’d be happy to discuss these arguments with you by private message instead of over the public forum, if that would make you more comfortable. In either case, if you’d give me a sketch of the arguments in favor, I’d be happy to try to find its best and strongest expression and then deal with it. God bless,

Rob
 
Hi RobNY,

Your post (#51) is an absolutely clear, brilliant defence of the priesthood, one of the best I’ve seen! :clapping:
 
My mom would have loved for me or my brother to be a priest. My brother is now married and I feel no calling at all to that kind of life.
 
I have three young son sons. When each child was born, I had this feeling of what each child’s vocation might be. Whether or not those inclinations were accurate only God knows. I just pray that they would follow the Lord all the days of their lives and that they would have clear discernment of their vocations whatever they may be. I also pray that God would help me to train them in His ways. I am so grateful that our Blessed Mother understands this awesome responsibility that we have in caring for the children that God has placed in our care, and I ask for her intercession.

“Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help or sought thy intercession was left unaided. Inspired with this confidence, I fly unto thee, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother. To thee I come, before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy, hear and answer me. Amen.”:byzsoc:
 
Excellent points RobNY!
People simply see priesthood in terms of rights. That’s how contemporary secular mindset works these days. But if we dare and question such logic, look at what Christ did and wanted, then it is a completely diferent matter. If we believe that the Church was established by people, then we are not Catholic. The Church belongs to Christ and I’m more that happy to trust him about the way it should be organised, whether that is PC or not.
 
Jesus calls us to be his disciples and its a life of sacrifice.

Matthew 8:19,20
19Then a scribe came and said to Him, “Teacher, I will follow You wherever You go.”
20Jesus said to him, “The foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.”
Luke 9
23 And He was saying to them all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.
24 "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it.
Living out your vocation is not easy. I recently felt called to the priesthood and noticed almost everyone has a problem with it. Many will say thats good but you should…(insert worldly temptation). Others say “Why do you just become a protestant pastor they can do this and that…”

Unless you have people around you who are good Christians/Catholics then you’ll basically feel like the world is pitted against you. By this I mean GOOD Christians/Catholics because even other Catholics will say things like “you know they don’t make much money right?” Christ doesn’t call for a life of mediocrity.He tells us “I send you forth as lambs among wolves”. If you find your self without the comfort of others because you try to live your vocation so be it (not in an apathetic way.) I do have to say I will get the occasional “thats good we need more of that in this world” (without giving me a hesitation I should have) which begins a fruitful conversation. Then again this is rare! 😃
 
Also put it this way if you were to tell people that you are becoming a Millionaire NObody would stop you and say “are you sure?”

but why is it if you want to show others Jesus and give them the gift of eternal life through him, you will get 1000s of excuses and reasons why you shouldn’t do that! At only is it this point its “are you really sure?”
 
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