S
shannon_e
Guest
Good question, Fiat.
- Status
V
_veritas
Guest
VOTF, Fr. Greeley, Gary Wills, and all the other liberal CINOs out there have one goal – to justify their beliefs by adapting the Gospel of Jesus Christ to fit the world, instead of trying to lift the world up to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
All of them, by their angry and vehement “proposals” aimed at changing the Church, obviously are far more of the world rather than simply in the world… And if they continue in this way, I am concerned that they will remain in the “world” for all eternity (like the dwarfs in the last Narnia book) rather than find the happiness of heaven.
Pray for them and all who think that “they” have the answer instead of Christ and His Church.
+veritas+
All of them, by their angry and vehement “proposals” aimed at changing the Church, obviously are far more of the world rather than simply in the world… And if they continue in this way, I am concerned that they will remain in the “world” for all eternity (like the dwarfs in the last Narnia book) rather than find the happiness of heaven.
Pray for them and all who think that “they” have the answer instead of Christ and His Church.
+veritas+
B
Bob_Baran
Guest
Numerous groups, including VOTF, during the past forty years have tried to democratize the church with an attempt to be in a power position in order to make decisions according to their own agenda. These groups don’t realize that Jesus didn’t establish a democracy…he created a Kingdom! Enough said!
O
otm
Guest
Sounds like a smart move. One of the ways to defuse some of the heat and anger is to give them an opportunity to participate in a limited way; one out of seven is hardly going to go anywhere. O’ Mally seems to have his head on straight. Putting this guy on the panel gives O’Mally the ability to say, “See, we are listening.”
B
bbas_64
Guest
Good Day, Beachlady
I am not a Roman Catholic, but I do work Boston and live in Mass. As has been stated that one of the VOTF has been appointed to a role with in Boston. I guess if they are good or basd depends on your POV the Bishop here in Boston sees them as having some vaule in the Boston area.
Here they do have a lot of power and can bring many voices to the table for dialog, and have contributed much to the local churches and thier internal structure. Good or bad I do not know are they impacted the nature of the church in this area, I would say yes.
There are many 'Roman Catholics here who see this as a second refromation and support it with money and time and talents. This has seemed to impact the church greatly as donations are way down not a very good thing on the surface… some would say it is needed to bring about change and it has IMHO.
Peace to u,
Bill
K
katherine2
Guest
are they pretending to be “catholic answers”?
Yes, it is the same thing.
In the words chisled onto the Pope’s cathedral (Often wrongly credited to the Protestants), the Church is “ever changing.”
Yes, our Faith is eternal and the church is ever changing. Think of the changes brought about by St. Francis of Assisi or Chiara Lubich or St. Teresa or Cluny or Father Kolping.
L
Lisa_N
Guest
Gerry Hunter:
When I told my Methodist minister I was leaving partly BECAUSE of the protean qualities of Protestant churches, he said he agreed totally that it was hard to count on a faith that could change its mind about essential elements of their tradition based on who happened to attend a conference one year.
While I agree that certainly changes have occurred, the changes were more toward returning to the early church rather than breaking new ground.
Lisa N
Yes and not just the Anglicans. Many mainline Protestant churches vote on policy changes periodically. They can vote one way and then vote the other way at the next gathering. Women ministers? They’re out. They’re in. They’re out. They’re in. Gay ministers? They’re out. They’re in. They’re out. They’re in. They’re out…you get the drift.
When I told my Methodist minister I was leaving partly BECAUSE of the protean qualities of Protestant churches, he said he agreed totally that it was hard to count on a faith that could change its mind about essential elements of their tradition based on who happened to attend a conference one year.
While I agree that certainly changes have occurred, the changes were more toward returning to the early church rather than breaking new ground.
Lisa N
F
Fiat
Guest
Katherine2:
I guess I see a difference in the phrase “Catholic Answers,” and “answers from a Catholic.” The latter phrase seems to be more appropriately applied to these forums, though perhaps I shouldn’t make judgments. Let me clarify that I would be equally offended if C/A pretended to be speaking for the universal church. I don’t see evidence of that here. I am less cautious about Catholics expressing their consciences and opinions than I am about organizations rallying behind dissenting positions in an effort to impose those positions on everyone.
Also, I ask for a clarification on what VOTF means by keeping the faith and changing the church because based on what I’ve seen from VOTF, the sort of change that seems to be promoted is one of organizational change and not the spiritual renewal that St. Francis had in mind. Likewise I pray that I, as a member of the Church, am also “ever-changing” and am ever being further conformed to the Cross. Why do you assume this implies “changing the church.”
Is it VOTF’s position that in fact they are not interested in changing how the Church is ran; how its affairs are conducted; how the church is organized; etc., etc.? Is VOTF strictly interested in renewal from a spiritual perspective? Is there any evidence of this in VOTF materials?
Your brother in faith,
Fiat
I guess I see a difference in the phrase “Catholic Answers,” and “answers from a Catholic.” The latter phrase seems to be more appropriately applied to these forums, though perhaps I shouldn’t make judgments. Let me clarify that I would be equally offended if C/A pretended to be speaking for the universal church. I don’t see evidence of that here. I am less cautious about Catholics expressing their consciences and opinions than I am about organizations rallying behind dissenting positions in an effort to impose those positions on everyone.
Also, I ask for a clarification on what VOTF means by keeping the faith and changing the church because based on what I’ve seen from VOTF, the sort of change that seems to be promoted is one of organizational change and not the spiritual renewal that St. Francis had in mind. Likewise I pray that I, as a member of the Church, am also “ever-changing” and am ever being further conformed to the Cross. Why do you assume this implies “changing the church.”
Is it VOTF’s position that in fact they are not interested in changing how the Church is ran; how its affairs are conducted; how the church is organized; etc., etc.? Is VOTF strictly interested in renewal from a spiritual perspective? Is there any evidence of this in VOTF materials?
Your brother in faith,
Fiat
4
4_marks
Guest
I am unsure what to make of this group at this time. I do not believe in alienating active Catholics. There are things about the Catholic stance on certain issues that some have difficulty understanding or embracing. I believe it is wise, at least, to listen to their concerns, even if we do not concur with all of them.
K
katherine2
Guest
I guess you do see a difference. I don’t. In both cases, one should be cautious about reading too much just based on the name of an organization. “The Society of Jesus”? “The University of Notre Dame”?
I don’t think VOTF pretends to be the exclusive voice of teh laity. They are a particular organization which seek to do some good as best they can.
And what do you mean by “rallying behind dissenting positions”? It seems to me suggesting faithful lay Catholics who meet to consider aspects of Church life and practices pertaining not to dogma but the good order of the Catholic community and then presenting those thoughts and considerations to the bishops are dissenting is an attempt to silence them.
The words on the Pope’s cathedral speak to the Church as ever changing, not individual members of the faithful.
I think even a quick review of their publications make it clear they are speaking of changing the teaching aspects of the Church but clearly aspect of church life that are reformable and alterable. Fro example, policies to better protect our children.
It is not dissent to say that faithful Catholic parents might have some good ideas about protecting their children rather than suggesting they should quitely accept whatever decisions and policies bishops choose to make.
F
Fiat
Guest
So to clarify your point, do I understand you to say that VOTF is only interested in proposing policy issues regarding child safety? Also, I am assuming you meant to say that VOTF is NOT interested in changing the teaching aspects of the church…
In faith
Fiat
In faith
Fiat
G
Gerry_Hunter
Guest
The man who was in charge of the broadcasting of clandestine propaganda into occupied Europe during World War II had good insight into how to be effective. He pointed out that one of the best ways to make a man doubt the leadership of the occupiers was to say “Heil Hitler,” and then spit in his soup. Mutatis mutandis (after all, we’re not talking about Nazis here), this is the effect of groups like VOTF.
No one can doubt the need to protect our children, for example, and the actions of a small minority of priests and religious in the Church have made that an item well worth tending to. But coupling that call with calls to ordain women, marry homosexuals, or what have you, is, to say the least, somewhat suspect.
That’s a difference between groups like Catholic Answers and VOTF. In these forums, to badmouth the magisterium or its teachings is to be suspended or banned. To do so at a VOTF meeting is to be invited back.
Blessings,
Gerry
No one can doubt the need to protect our children, for example, and the actions of a small minority of priests and religious in the Church have made that an item well worth tending to. But coupling that call with calls to ordain women, marry homosexuals, or what have you, is, to say the least, somewhat suspect.
That’s a difference between groups like Catholic Answers and VOTF. In these forums, to badmouth the magisterium or its teachings is to be suspended or banned. To do so at a VOTF meeting is to be invited back.
Blessings,
Gerry
F
Fiat
Guest
Katherine2:
According to VOTF’s website, VOTF states with regard to structural change its following goal:
Also, I am curious whether VOTF’s ideal Church structure is one that has some sort of lay franchise that extends beyond an advisory role.
Likewise, is there any oral tradition or scripture that provides for a church structure which separates itself from doctrine, as VOTF seems to suggest is possible given its stated goal, or do you base your authority on an etching in a cathedral? Has the etching been infallibly interpreted?
In faith,
Fiat
According to VOTF’s website, VOTF states with regard to structural change its following goal:
How does VOTF hope to use its “discernment” to shape change that it never seeks to clarify? Is it fair to say that VOTF is still in its discernment stage in that VOTF itself isn’t clear of the direction it plans to take or the changes it wishes to effect? Please understand that I’m not trying to be flippant with my responses. I’m truly interested in learning more about the organization. I’ve heard some people whom I respect and admire in a neighboring diocese talk about the very positive influence that VOTF has had in their parish life. I’ve also heard the opposite. Personally, I’m still trying to figure out where VOTF is coming from. It’s difficult for me to come to conclusions when VOTF describes its agenda in such veiled terms.
Also, I am curious whether VOTF’s ideal Church structure is one that has some sort of lay franchise that extends beyond an advisory role.
Likewise, is there any oral tradition or scripture that provides for a church structure which separates itself from doctrine, as VOTF seems to suggest is possible given its stated goal, or do you base your authority on an etching in a cathedral? Has the etching been infallibly interpreted?
In faith,
Fiat
C
Coder
Guest
C
Coder
Guest
ketherine2:
votf.org/Educating_Ourselves/educating.html
Please note that previously on this Web site, Dr. Massimini’s and Prof. Appleby’s papers were described as “Highly Recommended Reading.” Although we have reorganized our site, VOTF still highly recommends these papers.
These are quotes from VOTF highly recommended reading:
votf.org/Educating_Ourselves/massimini2.html
“we expect and require that the bishop will finally remove from himself the “Gentile,” i.e., pagan trappings of clerical power and domination, privilege, material excess, and the absence of accountability to the laity”
“…it is time to say clearly and forcefully that it is not for the faithful, wounded and deceived Catholic laity to prove their orthodoxy; it is for the domineering and truth-obstructing bishops to prove their orthodoxy.”
“The bishop will therefore acknowledge that his authority to teach can never be exercised without first consulting the faith of the laity. This applies especially to matters of moral conduct, e.g., concerning the family, sexuality, …”
“We therefore expect and require that the bishop set up diocesan and parish mechanisms for continuous consultation with the laity, to discern the ongoing faith of the laity in matters of faith and morals.”
votf.org/Educating_Ourselves/massimini.html
c. Ignorance of the human body and sex
d. A mindset that degrades women and marriage
“The clerical culture has no basis in church teaching. It is an historic accretion that has been built up over the centuries by certain events, such as the church’s inheritance of ancient male-dominant, patriarchal society structures; the introduction of pagan notions concerning sex and women into early Christianity; the fall of the Roman Empire; the authority structure of the Middle Ages, the trauma of the Reformation, and the rise of the modern secular world.”
"Also, pagan dualism—which sees the soul as good and the body (and sex) as evil—influenced Christian thinking and teaching. If the body and sex are seen as evil, then marriage is easily seen as putting people in touch with this ‘evil.’ ”
From VOTF:
votf.org/Educating_Ourselves/educating.html
Please note that previously on this Web site, Dr. Massimini’s and Prof. Appleby’s papers were described as “Highly Recommended Reading.” Although we have reorganized our site, VOTF still highly recommends these papers.
These are quotes from VOTF highly recommended reading:
votf.org/Educating_Ourselves/massimini2.html
“we expect and require that the bishop will finally remove from himself the “Gentile,” i.e., pagan trappings of clerical power and domination, privilege, material excess, and the absence of accountability to the laity”
“…it is time to say clearly and forcefully that it is not for the faithful, wounded and deceived Catholic laity to prove their orthodoxy; it is for the domineering and truth-obstructing bishops to prove their orthodoxy.”
“The bishop will therefore acknowledge that his authority to teach can never be exercised without first consulting the faith of the laity. This applies especially to matters of moral conduct, e.g., concerning the family, sexuality, …”
“We therefore expect and require that the bishop set up diocesan and parish mechanisms for continuous consultation with the laity, to discern the ongoing faith of the laity in matters of faith and morals.”
votf.org/Educating_Ourselves/massimini.html
c. Ignorance of the human body and sex
d. A mindset that degrades women and marriage
“The clerical culture has no basis in church teaching. It is an historic accretion that has been built up over the centuries by certain events, such as the church’s inheritance of ancient male-dominant, patriarchal society structures; the introduction of pagan notions concerning sex and women into early Christianity; the fall of the Roman Empire; the authority structure of the Middle Ages, the trauma of the Reformation, and the rise of the modern secular world.”
"Also, pagan dualism—which sees the soul as good and the body (and sex) as evil—influenced Christian thinking and teaching. If the body and sex are seen as evil, then marriage is easily seen as putting people in touch with this ‘evil.’ ”
C
Coder
Guest
Continued…
ketherine2:
votf.org/Educating_Ourselves/massimini.html
"In the early Christian church, women held high positions (Acts 1:24; 12:12; 18:26; 21:9; 1 Cor. 11:5), but the male leaders, still acting under the curse, showed great ambivalence toward them. St. Paul praised women for their ministry in the church and then contradicted himself, saying that women should be silent in church (1 Cor. 14:34). (Some Biblical scholars believe that these contradictions were added by later writers.) "
"The laity are a particularly important source for discerning the Spirit’s knowledge, understanding and intentions in matters of marriage, sex, the role of women, "
(Referring to contraception and ordained women, Katherine?)
“This is the “Gentile” or pagan power which has been used by the clerical culture over the laity for centuries,…”
ketherine2:
VOTF Highly Recommended Reading:
votf.org/Educating_Ourselves/massimini.html
"In the early Christian church, women held high positions (Acts 1:24; 12:12; 18:26; 21:9; 1 Cor. 11:5), but the male leaders, still acting under the curse, showed great ambivalence toward them. St. Paul praised women for their ministry in the church and then contradicted himself, saying that women should be silent in church (1 Cor. 14:34). (Some Biblical scholars believe that these contradictions were added by later writers.) "
"The laity are a particularly important source for discerning the Spirit’s knowledge, understanding and intentions in matters of marriage, sex, the role of women, "
(Referring to contraception and ordained women, Katherine?)
“This is the “Gentile” or pagan power which has been used by the clerical culture over the laity for centuries,…”
U
utica
Guest
I have several good friends who are members of VOTF.
They are people of good will. However, they do tend to hold heterodox beliefs.
I think the leadership of VOTF used the sexual abuse scandal to try to advance a heterodox agenda.
They are people of good will. However, they do tend to hold heterodox beliefs.
I think the leadership of VOTF used the sexual abuse scandal to try to advance a heterodox agenda.
E
eddio
Guest
Does anyone recall the story of how St. Ambrose was selected to be Bishop of Milan? He was a pagan military leader sent to Milan to intervene in a struggle between Catholics and Arians. The people of the town literaly drafted him to be their bishop. He was baptized, confirmed and ordained bishop in a matter of days. The Holy Spirit clearly acted through the People of God, and He can do so today.
The crimes of the clerical scandals are only exceeded by the episcopal hubris that covered them up. We must be accountable to the pope and the bishops in matters of faith and morals. They should be accountable to the Church, including the laity, in matters of discipline and administration.
The crimes of the clerical scandals are only exceeded by the episcopal hubris that covered them up. We must be accountable to the pope and the bishops in matters of faith and morals. They should be accountable to the Church, including the laity, in matters of discipline and administration.
U
utica
Guest
My response to the scandal was to take a good look at my own sins. Was I trying to live by the teachings of the Church as fully as possible? Did I pick and choose teachings according to my own personal preferences?
Sadly, I found that I needed to clean up my own act before I attempted to instruct the bishops on how to do their jobs.
I’m still not finished. The roots of my own hubris run deep.
C
Coder
Guest
Yes, absolutely. Satan is very clever and he is a liar. Jesus says Satan is the father of all lies. The dissenting laity may not want to admit that the sexual immorality of today’s culture is evil. So in order to protect their continuing destruction of the sacredness of sexuality in marriage, they point fingers at the Church structure. This is an old reverse psychology marketing trick and it is despicable.
Few Catholics may even know the true joy and beauty of authentic Catholicism because it has been denied them by dissenting laity and priests. The same dissenting laity that largely makes up VOTF.
St. Paul warned about those whose teachings tickle our ears.
VOTF - part of the problem - not the solution. They don’t offer anything real. What we really need is the true Church and love of Jesus. Truly faithful laity and clergy is what we need.
Come Lord Jesus! We love you!
- Status