Voices of Moderate Catholicism and the Liturgical Reforms

[stpurl]

You know, it’s always best to hear both sides of the story. I wish I could find a copy of that book myself because while you know I sympathize with the more traditionalist bent and with all that’s been published from their POV, I have not been able to really check out the ‘other side’. I hope you’ll keep posting as you read; a lot of people will appreciate it and be grateful for getting more information in order to make a better and more informed judgment!

 

[edwest211]

I was there pre-Vatican II. We knew exactly what we were saying. Any other account is fiction. We sang and we knew the significance of what the priest was doing. Catholics were taught about the Mass, about what the priest was doing and the significance of everything.

 

[edwest211]

I never believed that. I was never taught that. There was a Latin class at the local Catholic high school that was well attended but it suddenly ended in the early 1970s.

 

[Pattylt]

This is only one outsiders view and hold no weight but I went to several Masses with my friend when young. As I had not been raised or educated in Latin or the Mass, it made no sense to me. It was pretty, even beautiful at times but I understood nothing.

Fast forward many years, I went to Mass a few months ago and at least understood everything being said. It was still pretty and beautiful from my perspective but I also understood it.

I think there were most likely Catholics that were happy to finally understand the words and those that didn’t feel they needed to. Probably some understood the Latin having been trained. If some really left ONLY because there was no more Latin, then there were probably some that stayed for the same reason. Personal tastes in humans come in wide varieties and generalities seldom work.

As far as bringing in outsiders, a Mass that is completely non understandable isn’t going to work. If that’s not one of the goals, it doesn’t matter. If it is one of the goals, Latin isn’t a good tool.

 

[edwest211]

A simplistic view. Prior to Vatican II there were many converts. God, not secular wisdom, at work.

 

[Dovekin]

Again, I think this is a personal feeling rather than something that can be said about everyone.

Yes, that is pretty much my point. Different people experienced it in different ways. The idea that the EF is more reverent seems naive to me, given the 100s of masses I experienced before the OF was published. What people appreciate is people of faith actively participating in the worship of God, not Latin or English or how long an offertory, etc. When those things become more important than the presence of Christ, something has gone wrong.

I have a sibling who has never returned to the Church, since and due to the changes.

Part of the 50% who never learned what the Eucharist really is?

 

[Dovekin]

I was there pre-Vatican II. We knew exactly what we were saying. Any other account is fiction. We sang and we knew the significance of what the priest was doing. Catholics were taught about the Mass, about what the priest was doing and the significance of everything.

I think that is something some people will say from preVatican II days but not all. More of a personal experience.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

I was there pre-Vatican II. We knew exactly what we were saying. Any other account is fiction.

I have no doubt this was true for you and perhaps even true for those you knew personally, but I’m not sure how on earth you could possibly know it to be true for tens of millions of other Catholics across the globe.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

The idea that the EF is more reverent seems naive to me, given the 100s of masses I experienced before the OF was published.

So, I think this is what I mean. You are explaining your experience or your feelings but not everyone felt the same about the changes. There was those that loved the 100’s or more Masses they attended before the OF. Throughout the years these Catholics who attended the TLM loved it and built parishes and spread the Catholic faith. They all did it without the OF.

What people appreciate is people of faith actively participating in the worship of God, not Latin or English or how long an offertory, etc

So, what I am saying is it would be more appropriate to say, “what I appreciate”. rather than “what people appreciate”. To some people that TLM was everything to them. The Roman Canon, the Latin, the music, all of it…

Part of the 50% who never learned what the Eucharist really is?

He was an altar boy right at the time of the changes. As he put it a it was like a light switch going off when everything he was being taught (at the altar)suddenly changed.

I am not sure we can always say that is it necessarily not being taught or not learning what the Eucharist really is but people coming to doubt or question the True Presence due to the changes and the lack of reverence we see today.

As a nurse I cared for an elderly woman back in the 80’s who also was very hurt when the changes happened. On her death bed she refused an offer to have a priest called because she said the Church she knew, loved and grew up with was gone.

Anyhow my point is, not everyone was greatly relieved when the Mass and prayers were translated into English.

God bless.

 

[pnewton]

Well, the Propers are always listed first in the order of possible musical options.

That would be one definition of elevated, that is first in a listing. But by that same reasoning hymn #201 is elevated over 506.

 

[edwest211]

Nice try. You have nothing to back that up. I have a Church full of people every Sunday.

 

[edwest211]

Study Catholic history. The same Mass, celebrated the same way throughout the world.

 

[edwest211]

Too dramatic. There was no light switch. One day I go to Church, there is a small altar below the high altar, the priest facing the people and speaking in the vernacular. I obeyed Holy Mother Church.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Yes we should definitely obey Holy Mother Church.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

Study Catholic history. The same Mass, celebrated the same way throughout the world.

Perhaps (though I doubt it because we have testimony that some priests skipped over or omitted parts of the liturgy), but you’re not just talking about the mass itself. You are claiming that every Catholic in the world knew exactly what the words they were saying meant and why were saying them. How could you possibly know that?

 

[QwertyGirl]

I would like to reccomend a wonderful book entitled “Who Moved My Cheese” by Dr. Spencer Johnson. It is available on Amazon and has been around for quite some time. It will help everyone who has trouble accepting change, learn how to embrace it and make it work for them.

 

[Dovekin]

Nice try. You have nothing to back that up. I have a Church full of people every Sunday.

I have nothing to back up what? That your personal experience was your personal experience? What are you trying to deny?

How many people do you think attended the EF in your diocese today? And how many attended the OF? Your “church full of people” is probably one of three or four with the EF, in a diocese with 100+ churches.

 

[Dovekin]

not everyone was greatly relieved when the Mass and prayers were translated into English.

I never said anything other than that. OTOH,

I had a feeling that back in the old days, Catholics knew what the Mass was and the prayers and chants were simply there to appreciate God being present among his people.

We knew exactly what we were saying. Any other account is fiction.

You would be more believable if you would address these personal opinions, pointing out they are just personal opinions and not global experiences. “Anecdotal evidence.” I know I am describing my experience, but others seem not to know that that is what they are doing.

To some people that TLM was everything to them. The Roman Canon, the Latin, the music, all of it…

Do you really think there are people like this? How unfortunate that they have never learned about God, just the cultural trappings! I doubt that such people actually exist; most come to church to pray, to connect with God. They may prefer Latin but it is not “everything to them.” At least, I hope not.

 

[Tolle_Lege]

Maybe not those two artists you mentioned, but quite honestly there is a lot of secular music more spiritually uplifting than the stale 1970s-era songs that still occupy the majority of Masses.

 

[GiftofMercy]

Excellent post, @Pattylt