Voices of Moderate Catholicism and the Liturgical Reforms

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Are you suggesting forming a committee to figure out how the Mass should be celebrated? That’s what it sounds like.
 
edwest211 said:
Are you suggesting forming a committee to figure out how the Mass should be celebrated? That’s what it sounds like.
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I said exactly what I meant. Within the rubrics there are many options. Depending on the options the priest chooses, the mass will have a completely different tenor. No committees necessary.
 
edwest211 said:
Please. Study history. World War I? What about it? I specialize in World War II history. I also specialize in the lies and deceit that occurred after the war.
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If you “specialize in World War II” history then you know why WWI is important. This post is very confusing.
 
edwest211 said:
Please. Study history. World War I? What about it? I specialize in World War II history. I also specialize in the lies and deceit that occurred after the war.

The fiction being pedaled here is just that. Oh yes. Newspaper stories from the period. And real history. Show the attacks made against John Kennedy: “If he’s elected he’s going to take orders from the Pope!” But he was elected. Richard Nixon went down in flames.

And politics? I know it. I think it’s useless to follow as a god. The worship of Communism and/or Marxism shows the folly of men following fallible men.
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If you don’t believe that the US has had a long history of anti-Catholicism, I’m seriously doubting your chops as a historian.

I am talking about the family problems that came about because of men sent off to war who saw horrible things and never talked about them to their sons. I’m talking about sea changes in attitudes towards women in the workforce, and especially women doing jobs that it had been presumed only men could do. I’m talking about a intergenerational attitudes that were greatly affected by the rapid introduction of technology, supplanting older ways of doing things. I’m talking about the injection of televisions into homes. This wasn’t all the work of some evil-hearted cabal who hated home life and wanted to destroy Western civilization.

I have no interest in getting into a debate with you about it, though. We are wandering off-topic.
 
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edwest211 said:
Call the US Conference of Catholic Bishops.
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I have no need to. Perhaps you do?

A priest can say an OF mass ad orientium and mostly in Latin. He can opt for the Confiteor and the Roman Canon. There can be plainchant, Gregorian chant and/or polyphony. The Eucharist can be distributed at the rail. All of those options can be exercised without going outside the church because they are already included as options for the OF mass.

🤨
 
jesusalright4me said:
Just thought I would ask, has anyone else noticed this trend? Or does anyone have any counterexamples? I am more than open to being wrong.
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I am reminded of this chapter from C.S. Lewis’ Screwtape Letters:
…I think I warned you before that if your patient can’t be kept out of the Church, he ought at least to be violently attached to some party within it. I don’t mean on really doctrinal issues; about those, the more lukewarm he is the better. And it isn’t the doctrines on which we chiefly depend for producing malice. The real fun is working up hatred between those who say “mass” and those who say “holy communion” when neither party could possibly state the difference between, say, Hooker’s doctrine and Thomas Aquinas’, in any form which would hold water for five minutes. And all the purely indifferent things—candles and clothes and what not—are an admirable ground for our activities. We have quite removed from men’s minds what that pestilent fellow Paul used to teach about food and other unessentials—namely, that the human without scruples should always give in to the human with scruples. You would think they could not fail to see the application. You would expect to find the “low” churchman genuflecting and crossing himself lest the weak conscience of his “high” brother should be moved to irreverence, and the “high” one refraining from these exercises lest he should betray his “low” brother into idolatry. And so it would have been but for our ceaseless labour. Without that the variety of usage within the Church of England might have become a positive hotbed of charity and humility,

*Your affectionate uncle *
SCREWTAPE
(from Letter XVI)

If anybody thinks that they’re a better Christian than somebody else because–well, because of pretty much anything–then we know where that comes from. Never forget that there is no good end that cannot be tainted by the evil one with wrong-headed attitudes. Whenever we are tempted to regard ourselves as better than those we are on this earth to love with the perfect love that we are to learn from the example of the Trinity, we know who is at our elbow.
 
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Politics and worthless political correctness. I would like a copy of Political Correctness for All United States Citizens. It doesn’t exist yet somehow people try to sell it.

You know what? Your bias is showing. You want facts packaged your way.

What family problems? The men went off to war in Poland, in Germany, in France and elsewhere. The wives had farms and kids and homes to look after. They did their duty as good citizens not as tools of political nonsense. When the war was over they went home to lead normal lives. There were no fake ‘sea changes.’ Try to sell that now and I will call anyone on it. Technology? Big deal. So what? I study the history of technology and invention. You know what my mother called the washing machine? A mixer. It only mixed the clothes together. Decades later, a TV commentator was talking about “modern” washing machines. Same mixers with added functions and useless functions.

Television? What a joke. It was already being heavily criticized in the 1950s. It was meant to be ‘a welcome guest in our homes.’ It no longer is. No progress there

Those who hate normal living hated to be reminded that there were people who rejected loose women, who rejected profanity, who rejected illegal drugs and who cherished the lives their parents lived.

Politics worship is bad.
 
As I said, it is pointless to have this argument, let alone to have it here. Your post only reiterated that obvious reality. You can do all the la-la-la-I-can’t-hear-you you want, but I wasn’t born yesterday, either.
 
Amen! Thank you for that reminder. That is why I want to have such discussions in charity, and keeping such discussions focused on what the “candles and clothes and what not” are all focused on, namely, bringing our best to God and creating an atmosphere of reverence where we can humbly worship our Creator.

If you lose sight of this, it is easy to fall into the worship Pharisical logic. I definitely have before.

I will admit it; I am a sinner, and God’s mercy to me has been, and continues to be astounding. I don’t deserve any of it, and there are certainly much more holier people than I out there. And I think that most who carry similar sentiments concerning the mass reforms in moderate Catholic circles would say the exact same thing.

And that profound amount of thanks for all the graces He has given me is the very reason why I think we should give our best to God, and I just don’t see how some of the simplifications made to the mass in the reforms do that.
 
I am using “moderate” in a different sense than they are used in politics. I only use the term because it is helpful to disinguish between those who are rad trads or completely unorthodox in their views.

With all that said, perhaps the better term is just “orthodox Catholic”.
 
“Rad trad” is just a term used to denote someone who looks at Vatican II as pure evil, most going as far as saying the Ordinary Form is invalid.

It is certainly a term that is used often.
 
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edwest211 said:
There is no such thing as a “moderate” Catholic.
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We represent about 16% of the total population of the world, about 1.3 billion people.
Somebody among us, living quietly in some inconspicuous corner somewhere, must deserve to be considered a “moderate,” lol.
 
The worship of politics requires inventing sides or enemies. Not so in the Church. A person is Catholic or not. That’s all.
 
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