Volunteer Firefighters VS Living Wage Principle

[Darrel]

Again, it is not the volunteers’ fault nor the towns fault. It is joe taxpayer who refuses to pay for it though his taxes.

I was a part paid firefighter and every year when the vote for taxes came it it was a very hard thing to get the money we needed let alone more.

As to what the union thinks, they think what all unions think, that volunteer steal jobs. I am not a pro-union guy so I will leave it at that.

Police departments also use volunteers, they are called auxiliaries (there is another term some places use but I can’t think of it right now) and they are police and carry weapons. Some departments place some limits on them but some do not.

I’ve worked with many volunteers over the years. I admire what they do. I guess I’ve just always felt like they should be getting paid for the service. It just never made sense to me, we could do the same for doctors, nurses, radiologist, and lawers yet they are paid for the work they do. Then again I know that people enjoy the community and brotherhood connected to the volunteers.

-D

 

[mary_bobo]

I’ve worked with many volunteers over the years. I admire what they do. I guess I’ve just always felt like they should be getting paid for the service. It just never made sense to me, we could do the same for doctors, nurses, radiologist, and lawers yet they are paid for the work they do. Then again I know that people enjoy the community and brotherhood connected to the volunteers.

-D

Many organizations such as hospitals, humane societies, literacy programs and ever so many more could not operate without the help for dedicated volunteers. I can’t think of one who expected or even wanted to be paid for their service. There are clinics where doctors, nurses, etc. do volunteer. Lawyers the same. If you start paying them for that which they chose to give, it is no longer volunteer service. I work as a volunteer at our local Catholic hospice and I would never expect payment for what I do. I do it for love of God and to help the patients and their families thru a very difficult time in their lives. As a volunteer coordinator in three different venues, I can tell you that volunteers feel more than rewarded by the satisfaction they get in being of service.

 

[Darrel]

Many organizations such as hospitals, humane societies, literacy programs and ever so many more could not operate without the help for dedicated volunteers. I can’t think of one who expected or even wanted to be paid for their service. There are clinics where doctors, nurses, etc. do volunteer. Lawyers the same. If you start paying them for that which they chose to give, it is no longer volunteer service. I work as a volunteer at our local Catholic hospice and I would never expect payment for what I do. I do it for love of God and to help the patients and their families thru a very difficult time in their lives. As a volunteer coordinator in three different venues, I can tell you that volunteers feel more than rewarded by the satisfaction they get in being of service.

Thats great to hear Mary. I’m glad your doing so much good and I’m sure people are very grateful.

-D

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I’ve worked with many volunteers over the years. I admire what they do. I guess I’ve just always felt like they should be getting paid for the service. It just never made sense to me, we could do the same for doctors, nurses, radiologist, and lawers yet they are paid for the work they do. Then again I know that people enjoy the community and brotherhood connected to the volunteers.

-D

Apples and oranges here.

Doctors, nurses, radiologist, and lawyers are all very skilled (two of them are doctors, lawyers need a masters degree, and nurses have a bachelors degree). Most police departments also require an advanced degree. Firefighters do not need any advanced degrees.

So how do you feel about volunteer ambulance services? Where I worked as a volunteer firefighter we had a volunteer ambulance service too. It was free to all those who lived within our community.

 

[Darrel]

Apples and oranges here.

Doctors, nurses, radiologist, and lawyers are all very skilled (two of them are doctors, lawyers need a masters degree, and nurses have a bachelors degree). Most police departments also require an advanced degree. Firefighters do not need any advanced degrees.

So how do you feel about volunteer ambulance services? Where I worked as a volunteer firefighter we had a volunteer ambulance service too. It was free to all those who lived within our community.

Well,

This is an interesting part of the issue. Skill and courage are required to be a good fire fighter. Many of these people are CPR AED certified or EMT’s/Paramemedics. That may not require a masters degree but then again they may save your family members life. Given that fact the work is as important as a doctor or a lawer any day of the week. This is very important work that contributes to the preservation of life and property. I think ambulance should be paid as well. These people are on the front lines. They also have to deal with horrific accident scenes full of blood and guts. And again they may save your family member if they get into an accident. I’m sure they feel great about helping people and volunteering. Then again a paycheck probably would not at all break there hearts.

-D

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Well,

This is an interesting part of the issue. Skill and courage are required to be a good fire fighter. Many of these people are CPR AED certified or EMT’s/Paramemedics. That may not require a masters degree but then again they may save your family members life. Given that fact the work is as important as a doctor or a lawer any day of the week. This is very important work that contributes to the preservation of life and property. I think ambulance should be paid as well. These people are on the front lines. They also have to deal with horrific accident scenes full of blood and guts. And again they may save your family member if they get into an accident. I’m sure they feel great about helping people and volunteering. Then again a paycheck probably would not at all break there hearts.

-D

So its not the skill or the courage, you just think they should get paid for the job, even though there are a lot of people out there who chose to do this as a volunteer while having other jobs.

You said that you were once a volunteer, are you now working in a full time paid position?

No a paycheck would not break their hearts but it would make it so they many, if not most, could not do the job as they have other jobs already.

I know many volunteers, I was one of them, who make way more money than any fire department or ems service could ever pay, even if it was paying a “living wage” (whatever that is). Some of my co-volunteers were making very high 5 figures to 6 figures. No municiple entity can ever match that.

Seems there are other issues behind this and it has nothing to do with moral issues.

No one can tell me that volunteering instead of getting paid is a moral issue.

 

[frleo]

So its not the skill or the courage, you just think they should get paid for the job, even though there are a lot of people out there who chose to do this as a volunteer while having other jobs.

You said that you were once a volunteer, are you now working in a full time paid position?

No a paycheck would not break their hearts but it would make it so they many, if not most, could not do the job as they have other jobs already.

I know many volunteers, I was one of them, who make way more money than any fire department or ems service could ever pay, even if it was paying a “living wage” (whatever that is). Some of my co-volunteers were making very high 5 figures to 6 figures. No municiple entity can ever match that.

Seems there are other issues behind this and it has nothing to do with moral issues.

No one can tell me that volunteering instead of getting paid is a moral issue.

During the day in Jordan if there is a page for an auto accident the bank looses about half of the people who work there.
The bank VP and a loan officer are both EMT-B’s. The three member insurance office located there has an EMT-B, a EMT-FRA and an grandfathered Advanced First Aid person. It is a quick run down the block to the ambulance barn. If the priest is in town (I wonder who that is?) he runs across the street to the ambulance. They all do have full time jobs, but when there is a need they drop what they can to respond. I think somebody did a count the other day and we had 52 runs in a one year period. That’s an average of a run a week. Hard to pay the bills for one run a week with a paid staff. The other thing is that the runs seem to run in streaks. We can go a couple of months without a run and then have 3 calls in 36 hours.

Another point, a lot of our runs actually recorded as two runs. We go to the scene and transport to the clinic. Our PA stabilizes the pt and then we transport 85 miles to Jordan.

 

[Darrel]

You said that you were once a volunteer, are you now working in a full time paid position?

.
Seems there are other issues behind this and it has nothing to do with moral issues

I never said I was once a volunteer. I have a full time job and have never been on a volunteer fire department. I have worked with alot of volunteers and have handeled alot of incidents involving the help of volunteers.

As far as other issues being at work here goes. I have no issues with volunteers at all. I admire what they do. My question is if it is moral for (towns) to use volunteer forces to save money.

This is not a personal or emotional issue for me at all. It an examination of the issue on a moral level. It’s about questioning an assumption that this is how a thing should be. Nothing more.

-D

 

[vern_humphrey]

The moral question,

I have no doubt that it is good and honorable to volunteer as a firefighter. In some cases volunteers have out performed payed firefighters. They choose to do good and risk there safety for others while saving lives, property, and providing medical help.

The issue I have is there existence within the town. I feel that towns save serious money sending young people into harms way under the umbrella of volunteers. Many towns can afford full blown paid firefighters and choose volunteers.

Many towns could raise taxes to pay for full blown paid firefighters. The principle I see violated is the idea of a living wage. If we are sending people into situations that could kill them, should they not make a living wage? The people who volunteer are usually young and eventualy get out for the most part. Some older people stay on as leaders.

What say ye?

What is it about the word “volunteer” that’s so hard to understand? Volunteers don’t ask for pay. Should they be forced to take it at gunpoint?

And should we get the money by reducing teacher’s salaries and cutting Meals on Wheels?

Going beyond that, should we make voluntary giving illegal – because, after all, that’s what volunteers do – they give of their time and labor.

What’s wrong with that?

 

[Darrel]

What is it about the word “volunteer” that’s so hard to understand? Volunteers don’t ask for pay. Should they be forced to take it at gunpoint?

And should we get the money by reducing teacher’s salaries and cutting Meals on Wheels?

Going beyond that, should we make voluntary giving illegal – because, after all, that’s what volunteers do – they give of their time and labor.

What’s wrong with that?

Ok,

I guess planet Earth is not in a position to look at this issue from the town leadership side. The only side of the issue is the volunteer side. The side that benefits from it does not exist nor should it ever be questioned. Because thats how it is period.

The issue is the pricipal of towns using the voluteers and the choice to do so Vern. Your points are all true but irrelevent in the context of my question

-D

 

[mary_bobo]

Again, it is not the volunteers’ fault nor the towns fault. It is joe taxpayer who refuses to pay for it though his taxes.

I was a part paid firefighter and every year when the vote for taxes came it it was a very hard thing to get the money we needed let alone more.

As to what the union thinks, they think what all unions think, that volunteer steal jobs. I am not a pro-union guy so I will leave it at that.

Police departments also use volunteers, they are called auxiliaries (there is another term some places use but I can’t think of it right now) and they are police and carry weapons. Some departments place some limits on them but some do not.

I agree that there may be folks who do not want to pay taxes for fire protection. But just think about the coal mining towns in Appalachia, or the very small and widespread towns in Wyoming, Colorado or Montana. They do not have a population sufficient to pay for these things. Personally I live in a rural area where we pay a yearly fee for fire and EMT service. They are trained, to be sure, but the government (us) does not pay for it. You bring up good points, but there are so many facets of this issue that I don’t think there is one size fits all solutions.

 

[blackrobe]

The key word here is volunteer. *If *people did not volunteer in sufficient numbers or render competent service, the municipality would have an obligation to do whatever was necessary to provide fire protection.

Personally, when I was a volunteer firefighter I found the immaterial compensation generous. When my circumstances made it impracticable to continue, I resigned and there were plenty of people in line for my place.

JSA

 

[blackrobe]

buffalo;1646860:

Fair enough,

But the next town over might be paying a guy 45,000 a year to do the same thing an 18 year old does for free. What about the towns choice to be volunteer, is it ok to use volunteers this way? Whats the reason for it?

-D

Good grief! If nobody volunteers the town can’t choose to be volunteer. Obviously people do volunteer; the volunteers are the ones making a choice. If they felt they were being used they wouldn’t volunteer. Ask volunteer firefighters and they will tell you they are using the town.

The “reason” for volunteer fire service is that people want to do it.

JSA

 

[vern_humphrey]

I can’t make it any more clear then I have. This is about about the towns not the volunteers and there good deads.

It is about the volunteers and their good deeds. The principle you are trying to establish would outlaw charity. It would cast as “immoral” those who give of their money and time to help others.

I still think in principal we should pay firefighters. We pay cops we pay soldiers.

In fact, we have police reserves who are unpaid in many jurisdictions. Here in Arkansas, we have elected constables who buy their own uniforms, vehicles, radios and equipment.

As for soldiers – in my 22 years in the Army, there was never a time when a young, married enlisted man was not qualified for foodstamps.

My theory is that volunteer departments are a wonderful tradition that became very financialy usable. It’s one of those things we ‘just accept as normal and ok’. Will they be around 50 years from now?

Will we be around 50 years from now?

What does the Firefighters union think about the issue?

What business is it of theirs?

Does the Teachers union have a right to prevent me from volunteering to teach adult reading classes – fixing what they left broke?

Does the Garment makers union have a right to prevent me from donating old clothes to those who need it?

Are alot of good jobs lost this way?

We are below 5% unemployment, which is considered full employment – there aren’t enough people to take the jobs we have.

I guess my main question is, why is it ok for us to use volunteers for dangerous important work that could equal life or death? And why not do the same for police and army?

-D

First of all, they are** volunteers**. They know the risks and accept them willingly. Would you rather force some poor person to take those risks – like mine owners of the 19th century forced poor hillbillies to go into their dangerous mines through economic power?

Secondly, as I have pointed out, there are many unpaid police in this nation, and our soldiers have never been paid well.

 

[Darrel]

This is obviously an emotional issue for volunteers and ex volunteers. Let me ask my question in a different way to hopefully be a little less likely to invoke a ‘back draft response’.

Lets say you are the person in a town governemnt who had the final say on a paid verses volunteer fire department. You can afford a paid fire department. Is it OK to choose the volunteers to save money for your budget?

You will have a paid Chief who will be responsible for recruiting large numbers of young people who will constantly turn over year after year. Some may be be injured or killed (voluntarily of course). Is it moraly right to not have the paid department strictly to save money?

-D

 

[vern_humphrey]

This is obviously an emotional issue for volunteers and ex volunteers. Let me ask my question in a different way to hopefully be a little less likely to invoke a ‘back draft response’.

Lets say you are the person in a town governemnt who had the final say on a paid verses volunteer fire department. You can afford a paid fire department. Is it OK to choose the volunteers to save money for your budget?

Okay. I’m the person in charge.

Ahem! The first item on the agenda is the Volunteer Fire Department. Before raising the question, I’d like to point out that our job is to ensure the people of this town have adequate protection. Our job is not to ensure people are so heavily taxed that little Susie’s parents cannot afford to buy her a warm coat to wear to school.

Now, does anyone have any data showing that our current Volunteer Fire Department is inadequate? No?

Let’s pass on to the next question – the Town Hospital says if they have improved diagnostic and treatment equipment, they can save 20 lives a year.

What’s that you say? The Grave Digger’s Union opposes buying this equipment, becausee it will put a grave digger out of work?

You will have a paid Chief who will be responsible for recruiting large numbers of young people who will constantly turn over year after year. Some may be be injured or killed (voluntarily of course). Is it moraly right to not have the paid department strictly to save money?

Is it morally right to deprive little Susie of a warm coat this winter? Is it morally right to put a grave digger out of work (even if it saves 20 lives a year)?

Is it morally right to force some people to take risks for money, when volunteers are standing by?

It is morally right to allow anyone to volunteer for anything? Is it morally right to allow people to give to charity, and put all those tax collectors and other bureaucrats out of work?

 

[Darrel]

Okay. I’m the person in charge.

Ahem! The first item on the agenda is the Volunteer Fire Department. Before raising the question, I’d like to point out that our job is to ensure the people of this town have adequate protection. Our job is not to ensure people are so heavily taxed that little Susie’s parents cannot afford to buy her a warm coat to wear to school.

Now, does anyone have any data showing that our current Volunteer Fire Department is inadequate? No?

Let’s pass on to the next question – the Town Hospital says if they have improved diagnostic and treatment equipment, they can save 20 lives a year.

What’s that you say? The Grave Digger’s Union opposes buying this equipment, becausee it will put a grave digger out of work?

Is it morally right to deprive little Susie of a warm coat this winter? Is it morally right to put a grave digger out of work (even if it saves 20 lives a year)?

Is it morally right to force some people to take risks for money, when volunteers are standing by?

It is morally right to allow anyone to volunteer for anything? Is it morally right to allow people to give to charity, and put all those tax collectors and other bureaucrats out of work?

lol vern,

You totally chose to ignore the part of the hypothetical that said the town** (could)** afford the paid department. Then you answered the hypothetical in a way that protected little Susie from starving to death from mommy and daddy paying taxes. The secret to an effective debate is to change the question some times I guess. Could you attempt to answer the question assuming the town could easily afford the paid department? Little Susie Loo Who will have plenty of roast beast on Christmas day.

-D

 

[vern_humphrey]

lol vern,

You totally chose to ignore the part of the hypothetical that said the town** (could)** afford the paid department.

lol Darrel,

You totally chose to ignore the reality that no town** (can)** afford everything.

Then you answered the hypothetical in a way that protected little Susie from starving to death from mommy and daddy paying taxes.

No, I said she wouldn’t have a warm coat. I know people who cannot afford to adequately clothe their children for school. I know a woman who needs back surgery, but who has to forgo it to buy things for her children.

And the taxes you’re talking about – real estate taxes and sales taxes fall hardest on elderly home owners and the poor.

The secret to an effective debate is to change the question some times I guess.

As opposed to creating a town that never existed – one that can pay for everything?

Could you attempt to answer the question assuming the town could easily afford the paid department?

That town doesn’t exist. No town has unlimited money. Therefore there is only one important question – does the Volunteer Fire Department provide adequate protection?

If it does, move on to the next item on the agenda.

By the way, what about all those poor grave diggers who will be out of work if we improve medical care?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

You totally chose to ignore the part of the hypothetical that said the town** (could)** afford the paid department.

I am still waiting for a definition of what a living wage is.

But besides that, how can you say that a town could afford a paid department? It is taxed based. A town can afford nothing, the taxpayers afford it and chose what they will afford by voting on the taxes.

I have another question. Please explain why this is a moral issue. What is immoral about a “town that can afford a paid department” but does not have one becuase the people chose to volunteer their time and energy to perform this civil service with one of the benefits of keeping some of the tax cost down.

I wonder what you think of the fire departments that are subscription based. That is if you do not pay they do not come when you have a fire. They may show up to protect your neighbors property because they paid but will let your’s burn down.

 

[Darrel]

I am still waiting for a definition of what a living wage is.

A living wage is a wage that one can live off of in normal relative comfort. The amount may depend on the price of things like houses or gas in an individual area.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_wage

But besides that, how can you say that a town could afford a paid department? It is taxed based. A town can afford nothing, the taxpayers afford it and chose what they will afford by voting on the taxes.

A play on entities? Ok I guess the town can’t afford it just like the town can’t eat a pizza. How about the tax base can absorb the expense? Will this wording work?

I have another question. Please explain why this is a moral issue. What is immoral about a “town that can afford a paid department” but does not have one becuase the people chose to volunteer their time and energy to perform this civil service with one of the benefits of keeping some of the tax cost down.

You put the egg before the chicken. You say whats wrong with a town **that can afford a paid department but (****does not have one because the people choose to volunteer?) **

If you make $70,000 a year is it ok for you to seek charity when you have no need of it? Can you go down to the soup kitchen and ask for a freebie with no guilt when you have full fridge? When a town can afford to pay a department from it’s tax base it is usery to seek volunteers. (Especialy when it comes to dangerous work). Will people line up out of goodness to do it. Yes they will and they won’t complain. Is the town right to ask this of people when they do not need to? No, they are using people.

Charity sought without a basic need for Charity seems totally dishonest and usery to me. Does the volunteer department exist because people volunteer? Or does it exist because the town recruits and seeks volunteers?

I wonder what you think of the fire departments that are subscription based. That is if you do not pay they do not come when you have a fire. They may show up to protect your neighbors property because they paid but will let your’s burn down.

This is new to me. Is this a common thing?

-D