Voter’s Guide for Serious Catholics

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We can tell your heart by your actions. You support what our Church describes as intrinsic evil. Just as bad you encourage others to particpate in this abject evil . You can rationalize it all you want but in the end you are rejecting clear Church teaching . you have allowed yourslef to be blinded by your politics. The idea that one can eliminate abortion by supportng pro- abortion politicians is absurd.
Again, you presume to read my heart, a clear violation of the First Commandment which states that we may not ascribe powers that are God’s alone (heart and mind reading) to humans (you.) But no matter…---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------If you have voted for any of the major presidential candidates for the last several elections, you have supported a candidate who "supports an intrinsic evil. Period.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------What may be more absurd is your belief that supporting the partly-pro-abortion candidates is going to end abortion. The record shows otherwise.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1973 Supreme Court - Roe v. Wade - 6 Republican-appointed justices, 3 Democratic-appointed justices-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1992 Supreme Court - Casey v. Planned Parenthood (upheld Roe)8 Republican-appointed justices, 1 Democratic-appointed justice-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------In almost 36 years since Roe, we have had 24 years of Republican presidents and 12 or Democratic presidents. The end result? The abortion mills have kept rolling along
 
Again, you presume to read my heart, a clear violation of the First Commandment which states that we may not ascribe powers that are God’s alone (heart and mind reading) to humans (you.) But no matter…---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------If you have voted for any of the major presidential candidates for the last several elections, you have supported a candidate who "supports an intrinsic evil. Period.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------What may be more absurd is your belief that supporting the partly-pro-abortion candidates is going to end abortion. The record shows otherwise.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1973 Supreme Court - Roe v. Wade - 6 Republican-appointed justices, 3 Democratic-appointed justices-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1992 Supreme Court - Casey v. Planned Parenthood (upheld Roe)8 Republican-appointed justices, 1 Democratic-appointed justice-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------In almost 36 years since Roe, we have had 24 years of Republican presidents and 12 or Democratic presidents. The end result? The abortion mills have kept rolling along
So you have convinced yourslef you cant vote for pro-life canidates beucase they dont meet your standards-how does that then lead to it being OK to support people who state unequivocably they want the slaghter of the innocents to continue?

There has not been an evil in the History of the world that people havent rationalized supporting.
 
So you have convinced yourslef you cant vote for pro-life canidates beucase they dont meet your standards-how does that then lead to it being OK to support people who state unequivocably they want the slaghter of the innocents to continue?

There has not been an evil in the History of the world that people havent rationalized supporting.
How does a Catholic rationalize voting for a candidate who “states unequivocably that they want the slaughter of the innocents to continue” for victims of rape and incest? Is this not yet another “evil in the history of the world that people (have) rationalized supporting?”
 
Let’s take my ‘offending statement’ one section at a time:

“But both indicated that the were inclined to defer to legal precedent with regards to abortion…”

Here is a Google Search on “Roberts abortion precedent”:

google.com/search?hl=en&q=Roberts+abortion+precedent

I’m not sure if results and order vary, but I get about 94,000 results, and the first one reads:

Here is a Google Search on 'Alito abortion precedent":

google.com/search?hl=en&q=Alito+abortion+precedent

Again, my first of 63,000 hits reads:

These should be of no surprise. In their sworn confirmation testimony, both Roberts and Alito affirmed the concept of “stare decisis”, a legal principle of adhering to principles laid down in previous decisions.

This is not some vague legal notion, but a pretty fundemental legal principle, for example, an appeals court is “bound by decisions of prior panels unless an en banc decision, Supreme Court decision, or subsequent legislation undermines those decisions.” United States v. Washington, 872 F.2d 874, 880 (9th Cir. 1989).

This is, of course, contrary to a strategy of ‘stacking’ a court with folks of a different mindset, but that is the point: “It is . . . a fundamental jurisprudential policy that prior applicable precedent usually must be followed even though the case, if considered anew, might be decided differently by the current justices. This policy . . . ‘is based on the assumption that certainty, predictability and stability in the law are the major objectives of the legal system; i.e., that parties should be able to regulate their conduct and enter into relationships with reasonable assurance of the governing rules of law.’” (Moradi-Shalal v. Fireman’s Fund Ins. Companies (1988) 46 Cal.3d 287, 296.)

So this is wholly what one would expect from a Supreme Court Justice nominee. A justice is not supposed to use the court and its decisions to perform judicial activism, that is, to put his/her own beliefs into law. The justices are supposed to uphold the law and dutifully and unformly apply it to each case. Being mindful of their obligation to a stable and predictable legal system is part of the job.

So, it was widely reported that both Alito and Roberts accepted that there was important legal precedent and both accepted the standard and important legal concept of precedent in their sworn testimony. If there is anything remotely false in the first part of my statement, it alludes me.

Moving on, I continued:

“and did so, supporting Roe and Casey as law without comment in Carhart.”

The Gonzales v. Carhart decision can be read in its entirety here:

supremecourtus.gov/opinions/06pdf/05-380.pdf

The court opinion does not uphold a ban on certain abortion procedures on the basis of a change to either Casey or Roe. The prevailing opinion holds that the ban is fully conforming to existing law (the short argument is that the ban is legal, because there is no medical necessity to use the banned procedures instead of legal alternatives). Rather than going through that lengthy opinion, let’s examine the concurring opinion, from Justices Scalia and Thomas. It is very short:

Look at the first highlighted text (“accurately applies…”) Scalia and Thomas join the court in applying “stare decisis”. That is, they profess to be applying Roe and Casey precisely as intended in the original court rulings.

Now, look at the second highlight (“I write…”) Scalia and Thomas are applying “stare decisis” with comment. That is, they are indicating that they are applying the existing legal precedents, but do not wish their doing so to give the precedents any additional legal weight in future cases. They are specifically doing this in a seperate opinion because the majority opinion does not.

Last, we have an interesting comment (“I also…”) suggesting that the ban would possibly have been considered unconstitutional had the question of the commerce clause of the constitution been raised. Scalia’s opinions on abortion are well known (and even reiterated here), but note that he and Thomas are still indicating that they would apply law over opinion if properly asked.

Since Thomas and Scalia interpretted the opinion joined by Alito and Roberts the same way I have, I do not see how it could be claimed that my interpretation is inarguably false!

You have now made extreme allegations against me in very personal and derogatory terms on at least three seperate occassions. On each occassion the accusations have been without demonstrable merit and, as the case here, at odds with verifiable facts.

So far, you have failed to indicate any remorse when confronted with these errors. And, since the trend persists, there is little indication that you are learning from past mistakes.

If you are concerned about being the target of false or misleading accusations, you might give some consideration to Matthew 7:12. Or, perhaps some of the writings of St. Ignatious of Loyola, who is quoted in CCC 2478.
Nice spread on the typical obfuscating scattergun response, but no hits. The challenge was to quote Roberts or Alito saying they SUPPORT abortion. You failed. Case closed.

I encouraged people to read Carhart themselves because I knew you would do what you did in response; throw a bunch of dust in the air and claim it means something it doesn’t mean. Again, I encourage people to ignore both SoCalRC and me, and read it for yourselves to see whether Roberts or Alito ever say they support abortion.

And I do not care at all about your judgment of me, either. You are trying to persuade Catholics to vote for abortionist candidates; lately by your slander of Roberts and Alito, but certainly not limited to that improvisation. And you’re right about one thing. I have absolutely no remorse in calling you on it.
 
Nice spread on the typical obfuscating scattergun response, but no hits. The challenge was to quote Roberts or Alito saying they SUPPORT abortion. You failed. Case closed.
Let’s review. I made a statement. You delcared it to be false, slanderous even.

I ignored the obvious cheap shot of pointing out that slander is an untruthful oral statement (my lips do not move when I type), and focused on establishing the absolute truthfulness of my remark, exactly as I made it and exactly as you quoted it.

I cited news reports with quotes from the justices themselves, congressional testimony, and Justice Scalia from the supreme court ruling in question.

Now you are saying, ‘Nice try! You did not prove something you did not say!! You lose!!!’

I’m sorry, but in what reality am I responsible to prove the truthfulness of anything other than what I actually write?!

Was the proper response to your post not verifiable fact but, instead, sneering “Oh yeah! I DOUBLE DOG DARE YOU to prove you were abducted and probed by aliens!!!” ?

Honestly, it would be one thing if you were just so blinded by emotion that you had failed to actually read and process my original statement correctly, but to persist after I have taken the time to treat your diatribe seriously and establish the truthfulness of each fragment of my statement? I’m sorry, that’s just sad. :confused:
 
How does a Catholic rationalize voting for a candidate who “states unequivocably that they want the slaughter of the innocents to continue” for victims of rape and incest? Is this not yet another “evil in the history of the world that people (have) rationalized supporting?”
By your “logic”(but not the logic of the Church) a Catholic could not have vored for either Kery or Bush. Yet you voted for kerry-a man who supported 1,199,5000 more abortions a year than his opponent. You “logic” is a perfect example of the mental mastrubation a Catholic must to go through to support the party of death.
 
By your “logic”(but not the logic of the Church) a Catholic could not have vored for either Kery or Bush. Yet you voted for kerry-a man who supported 1,199,5000 more abortions a year than his opponent. You “logic” is a perfect example of the mental mastrubation a Catholic must to go through to support the party of death.
Estesbob, you have to come to one of two conclusions:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1. We should vote for a truly pro-life candidate (or not vote at all), rather than support a candidate who supports an intrinsic evil (both Bush and Kerry)-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------2. We have to apply concepts of proportionality and limiting harm and do, as the Church says, careful deliberation and make the reluctant decision to vote for a candidate who supports an intrinisic evil.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------It appears you have opted for #2. Your logic seems to be based on Kerry supporting more “intrinsic evil.” That can be a legitimate conclusion, but using that purely mathematical approach is not mandated by the Church. That aside, despite your 500 vs 1,000,000 slogan, the reality is that the abortion mills rolled merrily along during the Bush presidency at the same clip of 1,000,000. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Another Catholic could also choose option #2. His conclusion might take into account his doubts about the likelihood of the Republican president doing somethign about it,and his doubts about the Republican presidential candidate acutally wanting to do something about it, especially when he tells us things like “America isn’t ready to outlaw abortion.” He might also look at the Republican dominance of the two Supreme Courts that gave us the two pro-abortion decisions. He might also look at other sanctity of life issues and other Church teachings and reach a different conclusion. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I have no problem with a Catholic who opts for #1. But I do have a problem who a Catholic who opts for #2, but then claims that his compromise is the only acceptable one and that anyone who makes a different compromise should not call themselves Catholic.
 
Estesbob, you have to come to one of two conclusions:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1. We should vote for a truly pro-life candidate (or not vote at all), rather than support a candidate who supports an intrinsic evil (both Bush and Kerry)-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------2. We have to apply concepts of proportionality and limiting harm and do, as the Church says, careful deliberation and make the reluctant decision to vote for a candidate who supports an intrinisic evil.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------It appears you have opted for #2. Your logic seems to be based on Kerry supporting more “intrinsic evil.” That can be a legitimate conclusion, but using that purely mathematical approach is not mandated by the Church. That aside, despite your 500 vs 1,000,000 slogan, the reality is that the abortion mills rolled merrily along during the Bush presidency at the same clip of 1,000,000. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Another Catholic could also choose option #2. His conclusion might take into account his doubts about the likelihood of the Republican president doing somethign about it,and his doubts about the Republican presidential candidate acutally wanting to do something about it, especially when he tells us things like “America isn’t ready to outlaw abortion.” He might also look at the Republican dominance of the two Supreme Courts that gave us the two pro-abortion decisions. He might also look at other sanctity of life issues and other Church teachings and reach a different conclusion. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I have no problem with a Catholic who opts for #1. But I do have a problem who a Catholic who opts for #2, but then claims that his compromise is the only acceptable one and that anyone who makes a different compromise should not call themselves Catholic.
I can see that mental masturbation comment really hurt.
 
Estesbob, you have to come to one of two conclusions:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1. We should vote for a truly pro-life candidate (or not vote at all), rather than support a candidate who supports an intrinsic evil (both Bush and Kerry)-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------2. We have to apply concepts of proportionality and limiting harm and do, as the Church says, careful deliberation and make the reluctant decision to vote for a candidate who supports an intrinisic evil.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------It appears you have opted for #2. Your logic seems to be based on Kerry supporting more “intrinsic evil.” That can be a legitimate conclusion, but using that purely mathematical approach is not mandated by the Church. That aside, despite your 500 vs 1,000,000 slogan, the reality is that the abortion mills rolled merrily along during the Bush presidency at the same clip of 1,000,000. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Another Catholic could also choose option #2. His conclusion might take into account his doubts about the likelihood of the Republican president doing somethign about it,and his doubts about the Republican presidential candidate acutally wanting to do something about it, especially when he tells us things like “America isn’t ready to outlaw abortion.” He might also look at the Republican dominance of the two Supreme Courts that gave us the two pro-abortion decisions. He might also look at other sanctity of life issues and other Church teachings and reach a different conclusion. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I have no problem with a Catholic who opts for #1. But I do have a problem who a Catholic who opts for #2, but then claims that his compromise is the only acceptable one and that anyone who makes a different compromise should not call themselves Catholic.
Youn have all sorts of problems-not the least being your convoluted reasoning to go against the clear teachings of the Churrch. There simply is not way you for , as a Catholic, to justify voting for Kerry. So instead of trying to justify it you take shost at thse who are doing there best to end the evil you suport.

Il ask one more time. What issue of combination of issues trumped John Kerrys advocacy of taxpayer funded abortion on demand?
 
From the USCCB Consciences for Faithful Citizenship:

Section 34:

“A Catholic cannot vote for a canidate who takes a postion in favor in an intrinsic evil such as abortion”

That they dont understand.
All the Repbulican presidential candidates for the past several electins have taken “a position in favor of an intrinsic evil such as abortion” for babies brought into this world through rape or incest.

According to what you see as crystal-clear logic, a Catholic may not vote (or have voted) for one of those candidates.

I patiently await your tireless efforts to correct all those Republican voters who “don’t understand.”
 
Youn have all sorts of problems-not the least being your convoluted reasoning to go against the clear teachings of the Churrch. There simply is not way you for , as a Catholic, to justify voting for Kerry. So instead of trying to justify it you take shost at thse who are doing there best to end the evil you suport.
Yes, I did try to justify it. Check Post 87. Never mind, I’ll post it below. I am not “taking shots at those who are doing their best to end the evil (I) support,” I am taking shots at those who say that their compromise in voting for a candidate who “supports and intrinsic evil” is the only comprimise allowed and that those who make a different compromise should not call themselves Catholics. But I’ll repeat that question below.
l ask one more time. What issue of combination of issues trumped John Kerrys advocacy of taxpayer funded abortion on demand?
This was answered back in Post 87. Don’t you remember it? You responded with a really clever remark about dead babies having “better day care” and never actually engaged the issue. But I’ll reproduce the post below…
You call yourself more “pragmatic” than ideal in regards to this issue. As such, you say that is morally sound to support a candidate who supports some abortion over one who supports none on the basis that you don’t believe the truly pro-life candidate has a chance of winning.

A vote for John Kerry over George Bush could be justified in a similar manner. You justifiy your pro-choice vote by saying “I think he won’t get elected.” One could justify* their* pro-choice vote by saying, “I don’t think he’ll end abortion.” Both you and he would be making “pragmatic” decisions.

I do not know exactly what factors went into your conclusion tht a truly pro-life candidate “cannot win.” A Catholic who reaches a conclusion that a semi pro-life candidate “cannot or will not end abortion” might take in a variety of factors. This might include his statements about abortion before, during, and after the election. He might consider his Supreme Court nominees (if any) during his presidency. He might also consider the previous performance of other “pro-life” presidents of his party and the entire history of Roe and Casey and the relationship between those decisions and the party who helped make them possible. He may end up, like you, making a “pragmatic” decision that the candidate cannot or will not end abortion.

Beyond that “pragmatic” decision, he might consider other issues which directly address Catholic teaching on the sanctity of life. He likely would especially take into account the hundreds of thousands killed by the war (not to mention the millions more injured and displaced.) He might examine other life issues, both in terms of their victims and their contributions to what Mother Church calls a “culture of death.”

The social programs that you dismiss so readily might further solidify his “pragmatic” decision. He might think about circumstances that help fuel more, rather than less, abortion. He might thing about circumstances that violate Catholic social justice teachings on “vast inequalities” which demonstrate a lack of respect for human dignity. He might look at Catholic teaching on human rights. He might look at particulars of Catholic social justice teaching, especially those of the magisterium here in America that have applied Catholic teaching to American issues, such as health care, the environment, global warming, welfare, taxes, affirmative action, immigration and a host of other issues that the Church deems important.

Mind you, he could recognize that abortion is a more important issue, but having already made (just like you) a “pragmatic” decision about what he think a president cannot or will not do, these dozens of other issues can further cement his decision to vote for Kerry.

Both of you are compromising. Both of you are voting for a candidate who supports an “intrinsic evil.” You made what you view as a “pragmatic” decision as the basis for your compromise. He did likewise.

My question remains: why is your “pragmatic” decision/compromise (arrived at in good faith and with “careful deliberation”) acceptable, but the Kerry voter’s “pragmatic” decision/compromise (arrived at the same way) categorically illicit?
I’ll repeat that question again: Why is your “pragmatic” decision/compromise (arrived at in good faith and with “careful deliberation”) to support a candidate who supports an intrinsic evil acceptable, but the Kerry voter’s “pragmatic” decision/compromise (arrived at the same way) to support a candidate who supports an intrinsic evil categorically illicit?
 
Yes, I did try to justify it. Check Post 87. Never mind, I’ll post it below. I am not “taking shots at those who are doing their best to end the evil (I) support,” I am taking shots at those who say that their compromise in voting for a candidate who “supports and intrinsic evil” is the only comprimise allowed and that those who make a different compromise should not call themselves Catholics. But I’ll repeat that question below.
You have pointed out the fallacy of the argument of those that say it is okay to support the ‘lesser’ of two evils. It becomes subjective as to which candidate is the ‘lesser’ evil and is a slippery slope to more and more acceptable evils. One should not compromise on Church teaching when it comes to intrinsic evils. When a foundation is shaky, it crumbles.
 
When a foundation is shaky, it crumbles.
Well said:
“When political activity comes up against moral principles that do not admit of exception, compromise or derogation, the Catholic commitment becomes more evident and laden with responsibility. In the face of fundamental and inalienable ethical demands, Christians must recognize that what is at stake is the essence of the moral law, which concerns the integral good of the human person.”
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.html
 
Mental masturbation is spot on.

You’ll find these very same catholics being OK with opposing church teachings that they don’t like.
 
Formal versus Material Cooperation in Evil

The moral distinction between formal and material cooperation allows Catholics to choose imperfect candidates as the means of limiting evil or preventing the election of a worse candidate. The justification of doing that is described above. Formal cooperation is that degree of cooperation in which my will embraces the evil object of another 's will. Thus, to vote for a candidate because he favors abortion is formal cooperation in his evil political acts. However, to vote for someone in order to limit a greater evil, that is, to restrict in so far as possible the evil that another candidate might do if elected, is to have a good purpose in voting. The voter’s will has as its object this limitation of evil and not the evil which the imperfect politician might do in his less than perfect adherence to Catholic moral principles. Such cooperation is called material, and is permitted for a serious reason, such as preventing the election of a worse candidate. [cf. *Gospel of Life
74]

Many Catholics are troubled by the idea of a lesser of two evils or material cooperation with evil. They conclude that they can only vote for a person whose position on the gravest issues, such as abortion, coincides exactly with Catholic teaching. To do otherwise is to betray their conscience and God.
Code:
                Sometimes this view is based on ignorance of Catholic teaching, a sincere doubt that it is morally permissible to vote for someone who would allow abortion in some circumstances, even if otherwise generally pro-life. It is also perhaps the confusing expression "lesser of two evils," which suggests the choice of evil...
A good summation. Of course, it is consistent with Catholic teaching.
 
Mental masturbation is spot on.

You’ll find these very same catholics being OK with opposing church teachings that they don’t like.
Do you mean like the death penalty, contraception, societys protection of minors, protecting the family against attacks like divorce and gay unions? No, I’m with the Church on those as well. In fact, I even accept that masterbation is a sin.

What I find very strange about this discussion is that folks who choose to vote for an intrinsic evil postion on abortion and euthanasia and also buck the Church on things like IVF, stem cell research, and the death penalty, are so quick to shout about the alledged hypocricy of others.

It seems to me that once a Catholic decides not to hold his/her ground on abortion, something as close to an absolute as we have, complaining about others shortcomings in following the Church is probably not the best of ideas.
 
A good summation. Of course, it is consistent with Catholic teaching.
Wouldn’t John Paul II be a better interpreter of exactly how broad or narrow the concept of “Limiting the Harm” he introduced in EVANGELIUM VITAE?

In this Doctrinal Note, which he approved (and which then Cardinal Ratzinger wrote), applications which involve compromise on fundemental values appear to be declared illicit:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.html (see #4)

This reasoning is quoted by the USCCB in its document on voting:

usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/FCStatement.pdf (see #30)

In the Bishop’s document, an application of proportionate reasons is broached, but only in the situation where all candidates have intrinsically evil positions.
 
Wouldn’t John Paul II be a better interpreter of exactly how broad or narrow the concept of “Limiting the Harm” he introduced in EVANGELIUM VITAE?

In this Doctrinal Note, which he approved (and which then Cardinal Ratzinger wrote), applications which involve compromise on fundemental values appear to be declared illicit:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.html (see #4)

This reasoning is quoted by the USCCB in its document on voting:

usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/FCStatement.pdf (see #30)

In the Bishop’s document, an application of proportionate reasons is broached, but only in the situation where all candidates have intrinsically evil positions.
We have a living magisterium and the link I gave is consistent with what is taught. We have posted links from bishops, archbishops, and cardinals who teach the same as what is in the link.

What is your authority to claim your private understanding is superior to theirs?

Nothing in your links contradicts what was posted.
 
Nothing in your links contradicts what was posted.
Then prove it. I have just given you Rome’s position on voting and the USCCB’s position on voting (which quotes Rome’s). Both documents are addressed to the lay faithful.

Show me where in either document were the viability of a candidate takes precedence over the morality of a candidate when intrinsic evil is involved.

That is the living Magisterium, it is the Vicar of Christ and Princes of the Church working in a group. Both address you directly, on the subject of voting. If the position is licit, it should be in the documents. Why not just show me where if you are so certain that you are correct?
 
Do you mean like the death penalty, contraception, societys protection of minors, protecting the family against attacks like divorce and gay unions? No, I’m with the Church on those as well. In fact, I even accept that masterbation is a sin.
Wow. That’s mighty big of you. YOU accept masturbation is a sin. What an ego!🤷
What I find very strange about this discussion is that folks who choose to vote for an intrinsic evil postion on abortion and euthanasia and also buck the Church on things like IVF, stem cell research, and the death penalty, are so quick to shout about the alledged hypocricy of others.

It seems to me that once a Catholic decides not to hold his/her ground on abortion, something as close to an absolute as we have, complaining about others shortcomings in following the Church is probably not the best of ideas.
Yes we choose to vote for the lesser evil and then attack the lesser evil after gaining a foothold. You choose to stand on the sideline with your vote and perform the thought process so well described by estesbob.🤷

Now I know why I had you on ignore. Back you go.
 
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