Voter's Guides

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Suppose there was a candidate who said that the first office act of his Presidency would be to nuke Australia.

Would the correct Catholic response be to then enquire what his health care policy would be?
Assuming this candidate is pro-life and is running against a pro-choice Australian-lover…

The correct vote goes for the pro-lifer.

The fact of the matter is, the President does not have the power to nuke Australia. Period.
 
It’s a case by case issue as well.

Candidate A. Pro-choice

Candidate B. Pro-Life, He is also a Militant Anti-Catholic Seventh Day Adventist. This person plans issue and executive order banning Catholic Services and authorizing the Destruction of our Churches.

Would you still vote for B?
 
Suppose there was a candidate who said that the first office act of his Presidency would be to nuke Australia.

Would the correct Catholic response be to then enquire what his health care policy would be?
Candidate A : pro-lfe and has said that the first office act of his Presidency would be to nuke Australia.

Candidate B : pro-choice
 
Suppose there was a candidate who said that the first office act of his Presidency would be to nuke Australia.

Would the correct Catholic response be to then enquire what his health care policy would be?
Even better scenario?

Candidate A : pro-lfe and has said that the first office act of his Presidency would be to nuke Vatican City.

Candidate B: pro-choice
 
…This person plans issue and executive order banning Catholic Services and authorizing the Destruction of our Churches.
:rotfl:

What about Candidate C who knows that To Serve Man is really a cookbook, but doesn’t care because he’s getting kickbacks from the aliens?

Or, what about sticking with examples that are at least remotely realistic?

– Mark L. Chance.
 
It’s a case by case issue as well.

Candidate A. Pro-choice

Candidate B. Pro-Life, He is also a Militant Anti-Catholic Seventh Day Adventist. This person plans issue and executive order banning Catholic Services and authorizing the Destruction of our Churches.

Would you still vote for B?
No-you dont get. Being pro-life is merely an entry level qualification to get my vote. The fact I cant vote for A does not mean I have to vote for B. BTW-the postion supported by B is not nearly as evil as the position supported by A
 
Even better scenario?

Candidate A : pro-lfe and has said that the first office act of his Presidency would be to nuke Vatican City.

Candidate B: pro-choice
Both advoacte the slaughter of innocents so neither get the vote. The sad thing is that although you see how bad it would be to vote for A you would support B who stance is every bit as evil as A’s.
 
I am not aware that the Church requires us to vote and/or make a choice between two pro-abortion canidtaes. They give us guidance if we do vote in such a situaiton but there is no teaching that says we have to vote at all.
I’ll go through the documents I have to see if I can find where I came across that…it’ll take a while, but I’ll get back to you on that.
 
It’s a case by case issue as well.

Candidate A. Pro-choice

Candidate B. Pro-Life, He is also a Militant Anti-Catholic Seventh Day Adventist. This person plans issue and executive order banning Catholic Services and authorizing the Destruction of our Churches.

Would you still vote for B?
The checks and balances in place for our form of government safeguard the common good here…

It doesn’t matter what ONE elected official plans to do once in office since NO ONE elected official has the power to execute his own personal agenda.

So, yep, we still vote for Candidate B.
 
Even better scenario?

Candidate A : pro-lfe and has said that the first office act of his Presidency would be to nuke Vatican City.

Candidate B: pro-choice
A: Pro-life.

The person, if he wins, does not have the power to nuke Vatican City so it’s a blind threat.

If the person loses despite my vote for him/her, the I have the faith and confidence of knowing, had I died walking out of the voting booth, that I won’t have to worry about that vote in purgatory.
 
Assuming this candidate is pro-life and is running against a pro-choice Australian-lover…

The correct vote goes for the pro-lifer.

The fact of the matter is, the President does not have the power to nuke Australia. Period.
In such a case, the nuker is not a pro-lifer.

C’mon, what if Hitler said he was against abortion, knowing what we know now? A line has to be drawn somewhere.
 
In such a case, the nuker is not a pro-lifer.

C’mon, what if Hitler said he was against abortion, knowing what we know now? A line has to be drawn somewhere.
Being pro-life does not mean you automatically get the vote BUT being pro-abortion automatically disqualifies you. In a pinch you dont vote.
 
The Catholic Answers Voter guide is very much in line with Catholic teaching. Can you tell us what specifically you take offense with?
The voters guide that I was handed in 2004, which I believe is the same as this one, stated that the only reason a voter could vote for a pro-choice candidate was if both candidates were prochoice. It didn’t include the statement by Pope Benedict XVI that a voter could vote for a prochoice candidate for “proportionate reasons” or the decision put forth by the US Conference of Catholic Bishops that is was not a sin to vote for a prochoice candidate if you voted for that candidate for reasons other than their stance on abortion. It is obvious that both the Pope and the Bishops are stateing that the voter can vote for a prochoice candidate if they believe they have justification for voting for the prochoice candidate for reasons other than that candidates stand on abortion. The statement that the only reason a Catholic voter can vote for a prochoice candidate is if both candidates are prochoice is close, but not the same as what the Pope or Bishops have stated. There is a difference in the two positions. There are any number of “proportionate reasons” a voter can have for voting for a prochoice candidate. Suppose the voter doesn’t believe a prolife candidate is really prolife, if the candidate has no credibility on the issue, then that would be a proportionate reason for voting for a prochoice opponent. If the candidate has no credibility with the voter, then there would be no reason for the voter to vote for that candidate at all. Suppose the voter believes abortion is a constitutional issue and not a legislative issue, then there would be no reason for the voter to vote for a legislative candidate specifically because of the candidates stand on the abortion issue. There are an infinate number of “proportionate reasons” why a voter can vote for a prochoice candidate over a prolife candidate and it is the voters right and obligation to vote how he believes is best for his country and in line with the teaching of the Catholic Church. Catholic voters should be free to judge the candidates for themselves without being intimidated by political activists in the Catholic Church who are USING the Catholic Church to promote their own politically partisan agendas by distributing pamphlets that are not wholy representative of the official teaching of the Catholic Church.
 
The voters guide that I was handed in 2004, which I believe is the same as this one, stated that the only reason a voter could vote for a pro-choice candidate was if both candidates were prochoice. It didn’t include the statement by Pope Benedict XVI that a voter could vote for a prochoice candidate for “proportionate reasons”
Maybe because Pope Benedict XVI wasn’t Pope yet??? You can blame CA for a lot of things but you can’t really expect them to have ESP do you?
 
I’ll go through the documents I have to see if I can find where I came across that…it’ll take a while, but I’ll get back to you on that.
Estesbob:

Ok, it’s not my complete list but for the sake of this discussion these are the bits and pieces which helped me reach the conclusion that not voting is not being morally responsible:

From the CCC #2240
Submission to authority and **co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory **to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one’s country.

From the USCCBs Faithful Citizenship
“Our responsibility is to measure all candidates, policies, parties, and platforms by how they protect or undermine the life, dignity, and rights of the human person, whether they protect the poor and vulnerable and advance the common good.”

"In the Catholic tradition, responsible citizenship is a virtue; participation in the political process is a moral obligation. All believers are called to faithful citizenship, to become informed, active, and responsible participants in the political process. As we have said, "We encourage all citizens, particularly Catholics, to embrace their citizenship not merely as a duty and privilege, but as an opportunity meaningfully to participate [more fully] in building the culture of life. Every voice matters in the public forum. Every vote counts. Every act of responsible citizenship is an exercise of significant individual power.

From the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Doctrinal Note on some questions regarding The Participation of Catholics in Political Life
“By fulfilling their civic duties, «guided by a Christian conscience», in conformity with its values, the lay faithful exercise their proper task of infusing the temporal order with Christian values, all the while respecting the nature and rightful autonomy of that order, and cooperating with other citizens according to their particular competence and responsibility.The consequence of this fundamental teaching of the Second Vatican Council is that «the lay faithful are never to relinquish their participation in ‘public life’, that is, in the many different economic, social, legislative, administrative and cultural areas, which are intended to promote organically and institutionally the common good».This would include the promotion and defence of goods such as public order and peace, freedom and equality, respect for human life and for the environment, justice and solidarity.”

And yet according to the new CA Voter’s Guide:
Pg. 12…“In such a case you may vote for the candidate who takes the fewest such positions or who seems least likely to be able to advance immoral legislation, or you may choose to vote for no one…Not voting may sometimes be the only moral course of action, but we must consider whether not voting actually promotes good and limits evil in a specific instance.”

Note, however, that the CA quotations are the opinion/view of the CA authors’ interpretations of Church teaching so it doesn’t carry the same weight as their included CCC citations and quotations from Popes and such.

I tend to favor the Church’s position over that of Catholic Answers when it comes to not voting. From what I gather from the Church documents there is no mention of not voting when the choice is dismal.

While the CA position allows a voter faced with a near impossible choice to walk away with a clear conscience, I personally get from the CCC and the other USCCB writings that turning away would be failing to do what we had the opportunity to in order to minimize the damage the obvious outcome of that particular race might inflict upon society.

By voting for the lesser of evils we at least do something to protect our fellow brothers and sisters as best we could. Not voting abandons our brothers and sisters to their own ignorance and misguided actions. I don’t see how that could be considered a charitable and viable option for a responsible member of Christ. Perhaps your take on the matter would differ from mine. I’d be interesting in reading your thoughts on the matter.
 
You bring up good points. These statements that the pope has made - obviously after 2004 and the other statements made by the previous pontiff on voting: would those statements be considered infalliable? Are they ex-cathedra? Are they in themselves part of the doctrine of the church.

I had an argument with another poster on the Iraq War. I quoted both the popes condemning the US invasion, but a politically conservative pro-Iraq war poster just said the statements of the pope were not doctrine so he didn’t have to agree with them. Could the same be said for all these points regarding “how to vote?”

Just curious.

In Peace,
DS
 
In such a case, the nuker is not a pro-lifer.

C’mon, what if Hitler said he was against abortion, knowing what we know now? A line has to be drawn somewhere.
Hitler was Catholic and based on what they knew then the people voted him into office. Of course that political structure was not the same as ours.

You also can’t say the nuker is not a pro-life just because he wants to nuke Australia…remember, war is weighed on a different scale than abortion according to Church teaching.

As for ‘knowing what we know now’, that’s just the problem - none of us can see into the future about our votes. We are obliged to do the best we can according to God’s guidance with what we know.

What I “know” about your nuker is if he wins he would not have the power, nor the ability, to nuke Australia no matter how much he stomps his feet and holds his breath.

What I “know” about the pro-choicer yet social justice guru, is that he’s a hypocrite because you can’t profess to care for the little guy if you’re willing to put forward legislation which murders the littlest of guys - the unborn.

That is one of the things I do like about the CA Voter’s Guide they use the following words of Pope John Paul II:

“The common outcry, which is justly made on behalf of human rights - for example, the right to health, to home, to work, to family, to culture - is **false and illusory if **the right to life, the most basic and fundamental right and the condition for all other personal rights, is not defended with maximum determination” (Christifideles Laici 38)
 
You bring up good points. These statements that the pope has made - obviously after 2004 and the other statements made by the previous pontiff on voting: would those statements be considered infalliable? Are they ex-cathedra? Are they in themselves part of the doctrine of the church.

In Peace,
DS
Coming from the pro-choice, anti-war position I held for a long, long time (though I’m still anti-Iraq war) I can only state that for me, **after **reading what the Church teaches on the matter, I came to the conclusion that my limited mind cannot begin to comprehend the complexity of the matter to such a degree that I could - with confidence - second guess the magesterium. Who am I to declare - through my actions - the Church’s wisdom on these matters to be wrong?

For me, they don’t need to be ex-cathedra, or infallable. It is enough that they were written for the faithful by the Pope after much prayer and with the guiding hand of the Holy Spirit. No, the voting statements aren’t doctrine, but they are supported by magesterial teaching which is infallible (faith and morals) and if you follow all the footnote references it’s evident that the teachings are based on Scripture and Tradition.

My husband likes to ask at random points in time “Who could beat up whom? Batman or Superman… the Aflack duck or the Geico gecko…” With that take, “Who could beat up whom - the sources behind Chruch teaching on voting, or the sources behind Secular teaching on voting…?” There is no argument - The Church sources whoop secular ones with the first punch. So even though I may not understand completely why I should vote pro-life over pro-choice when given the opportunity I can at least do so in good conscience because I trust the sources of the teaching which guides me to do so.
 
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