Voter's Guides

[estesbob]

I do NOT support abortion and I do not support fake politicians who claim to be prolife and get in office and do nothing about it. I have listened to the Republican party use this issue for 25 years and do NOTHING.

Of course you support abortion. You do so with each and every vote you cast for a pro-abortion canidate. You have decided that your politcal views take precdnece over your Faith and over the lives of 1.2 million children a year. There is nothing sadder than a man who puts his politics ahead of childrens lives.

Abortion will end, And when it ends you will have to look at yourself, covered in the blood of the innocents, and wonder how you could have willingly participated in such an abject evil.

 

[buffalo]

Of course you support abortion. You do so with each and every vote you cast for a pro-abortion canidate. You have decided that your politcal views take precdnece over your Faith and over the lives of 1.2 million children a year. There is nothing sadder than a man who puts his politics ahead of childrens lives.

Abortion will end, And when it ends you will have to look at yourself, covered in the blood of the innocents, and wonder how you could have willingly participated in such an abject evil.

estes - my signature - right on.

** “A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth.”** Pope Benedict XVI

 

[estesbob]

Your right, Buffalo…Bush wouldn’t have the guts to serve in combat himself, he sends others to do hi dirty work.

As opposed to you who let the abortionists and the Demcorat party do your dirty work. Since Bush took office those who do your “dirty work” have killed some 7 million children. Yet I am sure you will vote for them again-after all in your universe dead children are merely collateral damage to asserting your political views.

 

[phantom]

As opposed to you who let the abortionists and the Demcorat party do your dirty work. Since Bush took office those who do your “dirty work” have killed some 7 million children. Yet I am sure you will vote for them again-after all in your universe dead children are merely collateral damage to asserting your political views.

No, sin is personal, Bob. I don’t control the actions of others and you shouldn’t be trying to either. I did not commit or encourage a woman to have an abortion. I have always been against abortion when the subject was discussed. I have carried signs for a prayer chain to stop abortion. If I thought voting for one of your so called prolife candidates would stop abortion, I would vote for them. But it won’t. You are kidding yourself. You are the one who is placing govt and politics ahead of religion. You are misleading people into believing you will legislate God’s law and make our world the place God wants it to be. God’s law can’t be legislated. God’s law doesn’t enslave people, it frees people. God’s law is love, it can only be freely accepted by those who believe. You can’t impose God’s law on people, just like you can’t impose love on someone.

 

[phantom]

Do you believe our system of government is a dictatorship? :banghead:

He held the power, he led the nation, he presented the evidence to make the argument for war, he said he had proof. He didn’t.

 

[buffalo]

He held the power, he led the nation, he presented the evidence to make the argument for war, he said he had proof. He didn’t.

OK - what power does he hold? He led based on intelligence at the time.

Congress looked at the same proof he did. They came to the same conclusion after 15 MONTHS of debate.

They are at the very least as complicit. Anyone who thnks otherwise should study civics again.

 

[estesbob]

No, sin is personal, Bob. I don’t control the actions of others and you shouldn’t be trying to either. I did not commit or encourage a woman to have an abortion. I have always been against abortion when the subject was discussed. I have carried signs for a prayer chain to stop abortion. If I thought voting for one of your so called prolife candidates would stop abortion, I would vote for them. But it won’t. You are kidding yourself. You are the one who is placing govt and politics ahead of religion. You are misleading people into believing you will legislate God’s law and make our world the place God wants it to be. God’s law can’t be legislated. God’s law doesn’t enslave people, it frees people. God’s law is love, it can only be freely accepted by those who believe. You can’t impose God’s law on people, just like you can’t impose love on someone.

I suggest you pick up a great book called "Arguing About Slavery. When you read it everytime you come across the word “slavery” substitute the word “abortion” Hopefully you will soon hang your head in shame. You see, Phantom, you are not the first person who has put political allegiance ahead of what is right. You are not the first person who has abandoned a whole class of people out of political expediency. You are not the first person to excuse evil under the guise “its too hard to end” or “I cant do anything about it”. Alas you will not be the last.

When those of us who fight the abject evil you support finally defeat it you will be like those who supported slavery-anxiously telling us that you were with us all along. But the children will still be dead. And you will still be covered in blood. Its not to late to join the fight Phantom. Not too late to insist that respect for life is a prerequisite for holding office. That is the ONLY way you will expunge the harm you have done.

 

[JoeyWarren]

from: abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

WORLDWIDE
Number of abortions per year: Approximately 46 Million

UNITED STATES
Number of abortions per year: 1.37 Million (1996)

ONLY 3% Abortions occur in the United States.

Where abortions occur:

78% of all abortions are obtained in developing countries and 22% occur in developed countries.

We are not too bad

3rd World Countries 78% (This indicates that abortion is an acceptable form of Birth Control and Population Control )
U.S.A. 3%
Rest of the world 19%

 

[JoeyWarren]

1,370,000 abortions a year in the United States

Percentage Amounts are from the United States Only.

Protestants/Born-again/Evangelicals 55% = 758980

Catholics 31.3% = 428810

Jews 1.3% = 17810

Unknown 12% = 164400

United States Numbers

Protestants/Born-again/Evangelicals 758,980 / 73,000,000 = 1.04%

Catholics 428,880 / 50,000,000 = 0.85%

Jews 17,810 / 3,000,000 = 0.5%

Unknown 164,400 / 35,000,00 = 0.4%

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Maybe it’s is better to be an athiest…

 

[estesbob]

1,370,000 abortions a year in the United States

Percentage Amounts are from the United States Only.

Protestants/Born-again/Evangelicals 55% = 758980

Catholics 31.3% = 428810

Jews 1.3% = 17810

Unknown 12% = 164400

United States Numbers

Protestants/Born-again/Evangelicals 758,980 / 73,000,000 = 1.04%

Catholics 428,880 / 50,000,000 = 0.85%

Jews 17,810 / 3,000,000 = 0.5%

Unknown 164,400 / 35,000,00 = 0.4%

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Maybe it’s is better to be an athiest…

And the point is???

 

[buffalo]

1,370,000 abortions a year in the United States

Percentage Amounts are from the United States Only.

Protestants/Born-again/Evangelicals 55% = 758980

Catholics 31.3% = 428810

Jews 1.3% = 17810

Unknown 12% = 164400

United States Numbers

Protestants/Born-again/Evangelicals 758,980 / 73,000,000 = 1.04%

Catholics 428,880 / 50,000,000 = 0.85%

Jews 17,810 / 3,000,000 = 0.5%

Unknown 164,400 / 35,000,00 = 0.4%

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Maybe it’s is better to be an athiest…

If the whole world were atheist how many abortions you think there would be?

 

[mary_bobo]

Your right, Buffalo…Bush wouldn’t have the guts to serve in combat himself, he sends others to do hi dirty work./QUOTE

GET BACK ON TOPIC, PLEASE!

 

[phantom]

I suggest you pick up a great book called "Arguing About Slavery. When you read it everytime you come across the word “slavery” substitute the word “abortion” Hopefully you will soon hang your head in shame. You see, Phantom, you are not the first person who has put political allegiance ahead of what is right. You are not the first person who has abandoned a whole class of people out of political expediency. You are not the first person to excuse evil under the guise “its too hard to end” or “I cant do anything about it”. Alas you will not be the last.

When those of us who fight the abject evil you support finally defeat it you will be like those who supported slavery-anxiously telling us that you were with us all along. But the children will still be dead. And you will still be covered in blood. Its not to late to join the fight Phantom. Not too late to insist that respect for life is a prerequisite for holding office. That is the ONLY way you will expunge the harm you have done.

I do not support abortions. The govt of the US does not force women to have abortions. The women who have abortions do so of their own free will. The innocent citizens in Iraq who were killed by govts actions never got that choice. How was slavery abolished? An amendment to the constitution. That is the ONLY way abortion will be abolished by the govt. You are placing politics ahead of religion by bringing these politically biased pamphlets into our Churches and intimidateing people into accepting your political philosophy. You have allowed yourself to become “co-opted” by the republican party, just as the Pope has warned you not to do. You are driven by hatred of anyone who does not hold your political beliefs. I have not placed politics ahead of religion. Religion comes first to me, govt is irrelevent. Abortion could be ended today if women chose not to have abortions, it is their decision. If you really wanted to end abortion you would seek an amendment to the US constitution prohibiting it or simply appealed to women to stop killing their children. Instead you seek govt legislation. Govt is your answer to the problem. Jesus never sought legislation. The Devil tempted him to seek governmental power and he rejected that path. But you embrace it.

 

[phantom]

OK - what power does he hold? He led based on intelligence at the time.

Congress looked at the same proof he did. They came to the same conclusion after 15 MONTHS of debate.

They are at the very least as complicit. Anyone who thnks otherwise should study civics again.

Yes we are all complicit, but he holds the ultimate decision…even with Congressional approval, he still holds the final decison. He was given the go ahead by many people simply because they did not want to tie his hands on the matter. Alot of people warned him not to do it, including Pope John Paul II. His own secretary of state told him, if he breaks it he owns it. The govt is responsible for the actions of the military. Those civilian casualities were the result of our action. The death penalty is the result of the govts action. In the case of abortion, those who encourage abortion are complicit, but the women who have the abortions are ultimately responsible for their own actions. The govt isn’t forcing them to have the abortions and if it weren’t for their actions the abortions would not occur. I am opposed to abortion and I was opposed to the original invasion of Iraq and capital punishment for that matter. But I am not going to be a single issue voter, not unless a candidate presents me a clear way that he is going to end abortions in this country. I think it will take alot more than legislation or reversing roe v wade.

 

[estesbob]

I do not support abortions. The govt of the US does not force women to have abortions. The women who have abortions do so of their own free will. The innocent citizens in Iraq who were killed by govts actions never got that choice. How was slavery abolished? An amendment to the constitution. That is the ONLY way abortion will be abolished by the govt. You are placing politics ahead of religion by bringing these politically biased pamphlets into our Churches and intimidateing people into accepting your political philosophy. You have allowed yourself to become “co-opted” by the republican party, just as the Pope has warned you not to do. You are driven by hatred of anyone who does not hold your political beliefs. I have not placed politics ahead of religion. Religion comes first to me, govt is irrelevent. Abortion could be ended today if women chose not to have abortions, it is their decision. If you really wanted to end abortion you would seek an amendment to the US constitution prohibiting it or simply appealed to women to stop killing their children. Instead you seek govt legislation. Govt is your answer to the problem. Jesus never sought legislation. The Devil tempted him to seek governmental power and he rejected that path. But you embrace it.

I never said one word about the Republcan party-I wont vote for a pro-abortion Republcian canidate-that would make me complicit, like you, in the slaughter of the innocents. How can religion come first to you when you support the killing of 1.2 million children a year? How can you claim to follow your religion when you ignore its clear teachings on this issue? Talk is cheap-you talk the talk but dont walk the talk. when push comes to shove you give the power to the abortionists. How dare you claim your support of abortionists is in any way comparable to Jesus rebuking the devil. Thank God the abolitionists didnt feel the way you do. And thank God all of us dont follow you in puting your faith and the LIFE of the innocnets second to your poltics.

 

[corvidae]

I think it is important, especially when we have the numbers in front of us to look at what proportionate means. It means that due to something else, that something would have to do the equivalent of killing 4,000 people per day. That is really hard to do, how many people a day die of starvation, or nakedness, or anything. Yes, those things are important, but as the Pope has said, they come after the right to life, not in place of it.

I do not know or claim to know what you all think is proportionate, but I would say there is no other topic that proportionate, and so, if CA had included that quote, it may have misled people. In the same way, the bishops have claimed that it is a sin to voe for someone who is pro-abortion because they are pro-abortion. I think this is due to the cases when all involved in an election are pro-abortion.

A lone Raven

 

[phantom]

I never said one word about the Republcan party-I wont vote for a pro-abortion Republcian canidate-that would make me complicit, like you, in the slaughter of the innocents. How can religion come first to you when you support the killing of 1.2 million children a year? How can you claim to follow your religion when you ignore its clear teachings on this issue? Talk is cheap-you talk the talk but dont walk the talk. when push comes to shove you give the power to the abortionists. How dare you claim your support of abortionists is in any way comparable to Jesus rebuking the devil. Thank God the abolitionists didnt feel the way you do. And thank God all of us dont follow you in puting your faith and the LIFE of the innocnets second to your poltics.

I dont’ support abortionists so your condemnation of me is as foney as your political pamphlets. Your intimidation tactics are a disgrace to our religion. We are on the same side on the abortion issue, but you believe anyone who doesn’t agree with your politics is your enemy. Bush has endorsed the morning after pill, when he vetoed the fetal stem cell funding bill he said its not like we are banning the research it will still go on. He refused to pursue the amendment banning abortion…because he didn’t want to lose the women’s vote. If the blood of the babies is on my hands, it is on your hands more so for participating in the lie that is callling these people prolife. You political activists who bring these partisan pamphlets into our Churches are every bit as much a threat to the Gospel of Jesus as the Liberation Theologists…and every bit as wrong.

 

[phantom]

I think it is important, especially when we have the numbers in front of us to look at what proportionate means. It means that due to something else, that something would have to do the equivalent of killing 4,000 people per day. That is really hard to do, how many people a day die of starvation, or nakedness, or anything. Yes, those things are important, but as the Pope has said, they come after the right to life, not in place of it.

I do not know or claim to know what you all think is proportionate, but I would say there is no other topic that proportionate, and so, if CA had included that quote, it may have misled people. In the same way, the bishops have claimed that it is a sin to voe for someone who is pro-abortion because they are pro-abortion. I think this is due to the cases when all involved in an election are pro-abortion.

A lone Raven

You also have to have a credible candidate with a credible plan to stop the 4000 deaths per day…without that, the issue is no issue. I heard Bishop McCormick himself speak on the issue and he clearly stated that it was sinfull to vote for a proabortion candidate only if you voted for that candidate specifically because he was proabortion. That is very clear. Abortion is not the only issue we face. These intimidation tactics being used by these self described “prolifers” are disgusting.

 

[fix]

You also have to have a credible candidate with a credible plan to stop the 4000 deaths per day…without that, the issue is no issue. I heard Bishop McCormick himself speak on the issue and he clearly stated that it was sinfull to vote for a proabortion candidate only if you voted for that candidate specifically because he was proabortion. That is very clear. Abortion is not the only issue we face. These intimidation tactics being used by these self described “prolifers” are disgusting.

Perhaps you, or others, can explain something to me about this topic? From what I have read it seems all agree we may never vote for a pro abortion politician because we are in favor of abortion. The sticky points seems to be if we may vote for a politician who supports abortion for other reasons. Is that the issue?

As an example in the last presidential race there was bascially two choices. Both were pro abortion. It then came down to choosing the lesser of two evils. Which one was less pro death? Right?

Is it not fair to conclude that the democrat candidate, that time, was much more in favor of abortion and other seriously evil actions? That is why I think the CA voter’s guide gets it right.

Certain issues are so overly important that any candidiate that supports them must be rejected. If two candidates both support the same amount of evil things then we must choose the lesser evil.

That comes down to understanding how to evaluate these moral issue as all are not of the same magnitude.

Right?

 

[estesbob]

You also have to have a credible candidate with a credible plan to stop the 4000 deaths per day…without that, the issue is no issue. I heard Bishop McCormick himself speak on the issue and he clearly stated that it was sinfull to vote for a proabortion candidate only if you voted for that candidate specifically because he was proabortion. That is very clear. Abortion is not the only issue we face. These intimidation tactics being used by these self described “prolifers” are disgusting.

I suspect this is another case of you hearing what you want to hear. I have posted several times to this thread the clear, concise teachings of the Church on this. Ill post an excerpt one more time-not for you-you have cast your lot with the abortionists-but for Catholics who read this thread and might be misled by your blatant, willful distortion of Catholic Teachings:

"Thus for a Catholic citizen to vote for a candidate who supports abortion and embryo-destructive research, one of the following circumstances would have to obtain: either (a) both candidates would have to be in favor of embryo killing on roughly an equal scale or (b) the candidate with the superior position on abortion and embryo-destructive research would have to be a supporter of objective evils of a gravity and magnitude beyond that of 1.3 million yearly abortions plus the killing that would take place if public funds were made available for embryo-destructive research.

No candidate advocating the removal of legal protection against killing for any vulnerable group of innocent people other than unborn children would have a chance of winning a major office in our country. Even those who support the death penalty for first-degree murderers are not advocating policies that result in more than a million killings annually.

Certainly policies on welfare, national security, the war in Iraq, Social Security or taxes, taken singly or in any combination, do not provide a proportionate reason to vote for a pro-abortion candidate.

Consider, for example, the war in Iraq. Although Pope John Paul II pleaded for an alternative to the use of military force to meet the threat posed by Saddam Hussein, he did not bind the conscience of Catholics to agree with his judgment on the matter, nor did he say that it would be morally wrong for Catholic soldiers to participate in the war. In line with the teaching of the catechism on “just war,” he recognized that a final judgment of prudence as to the necessity of military force rests with statesmen, not with ecclesiastical leaders. Catholics may, in good conscience, support the use of force in Iraq or oppose it.

Abortion and embryo-destructive research are different. They are intrinsic and grave evils; no Catholic may legitimately support them. In the context of contemporary American social life, abortion and embryo-destructive research are disproportionate evils. They are the gravest human rights abuses of our domestic politics and what slavery was to the time of Lincoln. Catholics are called by the Gospel of Life to protect the victims of these human rights abuses. They may not legitimately abandon the victims by supporting those who would further their victimization. "