VOTF

[Coder]

Does VOTF generally represent your faith and beliefs?

 

[Fiat]

Dear Coder:

Good idea to start a poll. I voted “No.” I do not believe that VOTF represents my general interests as a Catholic. Let me clarify, though. I have had a good discussion with a friend who supports VOTF. I have also examined VOTF’s website. Based on my discussion with my friend from VOTF and their website, I can honestly say that I still have absolutely no idea what VOTF is or what it wants! The stated goal which VOTF identifies on its website is as follows:

Goal: To shape structural change within the Church: We respect the teaching authority of the Church and recognize the role that the hierarchy should exercise in discernment. It is essential, however, that all the people of God be involved in this process of discernment. We will therefore devote ourselves to advancing meaningful and active engagement of the laity in the life of the Church.

If any part of this goal makes any sense to you, and helps you understand what VOTF is all about, then you’re a smarter man than I am!

Based on my discussion of VOTF with my friend, I have learned the following:

1. VOTF is not interested in changing the teaching aspects of the Church, but they are interested in changing the aspects of the Church that are reformable and alterable.
2. VOTF is interested in a “broad range of legitimate concerns of God’s holy people.”
3. Right now, VOTF does not claim to have any answers but are starting off with a process of reflection and discernment.
4. VOTF does not yet have an agenda because their agenda is still a “work in process.”
5. VOTF does not want to undermine individual rights or promote prejudice or discrimination.

Again, I have no idea what any of the above statements mean or what practical value those statements have with regard to a mission for VOTF. Apparently no mission for VOTF exists, but there seems to be somewhat of a focus on “change.”

Your brother,
Fiat

 

[Coder]

Fiat:

Based on my discussion of VOTF with my friend, I have learned the following:

1. VOTF is not interested in changing the teaching aspects of the Church, but they are interested in changing the aspects of the Church that are reformable and alterable.

Nonsense. Believe me, I’m from Massachusetts and VOTF is run largely by dissenters.

 

[CatholicCrusade]

Catholic Culture gives them a red, not that I agree with all they say (they often give Traditionalists yellow or red). Catholic Culture is left compared to where I stand, and if they are calling VOTF far left, then I am sure they are off the deep end leftist.

 

[geezerbob]

If VOTF cannot or will not define what they represent, seems to me that supporting them is akin to giving someone you don’t knot a signed blank check. Thanks, but no thanks.

 

[aridite]

From what I know about VOTF, they are dissenters, and they are not particularly concerned about Church teaching since (leadership, at least) are not following it.

As far as structural change goes, I think they want bishops not to be able to re-assign abusive priests, which seems a laudible goal. But I think we will minimize abusive priests and maximize responsible bishops precisely by being concerned with Church teaching, not structure.

 

[katherine2]

We have a serious need for greater engagement of and consultation with the laity in the life of the Church. VOTF is the most active group addressing this concern.

However, I think the question is misphrased. VOTF’s goal is not to represent the faithful, but to encourage the laity’s representation in appropriate parochial and diocesean initiatives.

 

[Timidity]

For the benefit of the ignorant, can someone please tell me what VOTF is an acronym for?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Timidity:

For the benefit of the ignorant, can someone please tell me what VOTF is an acronym for?

Voice of the Faithful

katherine2:

However, I think the question is misphrased. VOTF’s goal is not to represent the faithful, but to encourage the laity’s representation in appropriate parochial and diocesean initiatives.

Really?

Their goal is not to represent the faithful but they chose “Voice of the Faithful” as their name.

They call for the laity’s representation in parochial and diocesean initiatives (I left out the word “appropriate” as it doesn’t really fit) which they do so by demanding that they be heard and they be part of that representation.

The diocese is the bishop’s responsibility, not the laity’s.

If the bishop wants to hear from them he will.

The Church is not a democracy.

As has been stated elsewhere in this thread, we can not really tell what the VOTF is for from reading their statements. So the only way we can tell right now is by looking who they are keeping company with and that is dissenters.

The “Voice of the Faithful” is not the voice of the faithful but it is the voice of the dissenters. So I lobby for a name change from VOTF to VOTD.

 

[Annunciata]

ByzCath:

…
The “Voice of the Faithful” is not the voice of the faithful but it is the voice of the dissenters. So I lobby for a name change from VOTF to VOTD.

:clapping: thanks Byz…I’m from Massachusetts and you are absolutely correct about them, they are leading the laity into disobedience…Where is that coming from? …As I said in a previous thread “Wolves in Sheep’s Clothing”!!!
Annunciata

 

[space_ghost]

:clapping: thanks Byz…I’m from Massachusetts and you are absolutely correct about them, they are leading the laity into disobedience…Where is that coming from? …As I said in a previous thread “Wolves in Sheep’s Clothing”!!!
Annunciata

Agreed!



inform yourselves…

peace

 

[James_the_Least]

I appreciate the time all of you have given to this topic. I’ve come to this forum to get more info. on VOTF. Space Ghost, that graphic of the wolf is great! Can it be downloaded? Purchased? Fiat, you’ve posted very strong arguments, especially the idea that sin in the Church must be dealt with spiritually. Accountability is good, but repentance will bear more lasting fruit. How about the message of repentance from pulpits and Chanceries? I know some in Rome preach it regularly and forcefully: JP II, Cardinals Ratzinger and Arinze Is anyone listening and heeding? We’re involved in much spiritual warfare, as per usual. Our enemy is not flesh and blood, but powers, principalities, evil in high places. Our weapons are spiritual weapons. Thanks be to Jesus for giving His Church, His Kingdom of which He is King, the gifts, the tools, the weapons, the means of grace and power, if we will only pick them up and use them! We’re not called “Church Militant” for nothing!

So far, there’ve been numerous menitons of the Magisterium. This authority also tells us that the Church’s Pastors (Pope and Bishops) exercise rightful governing authority as well as teaching authority, e.g. Lumen Gentium, Catechism of the CatholicChurch, etc. It was rightly pointed out that even Canon Law cannot supplant the Church’s authority to govern and teach given through the Apostles by Jesus. VOTF members like to quote from Vatican II’s Lumen Gentium on the Laity, but they stop short of the passages which speak of the governing authority in the Church, which the Council did nothing to remove or alter.

We must be vigilant. Christ warned us that wolves would come, that false prophets would arise, that many would be deceived, even the Elect, if it were possible. We hear many “ear-tickling” voices these days, and many are having their ears tickled. We must be wise as serpents, and gentle as doves, speaking the Truth in love, but not being afraid to speak the Truth when necessary, in and out of season, whether convenient or inconvenient. I’ve read discussions about Truth and how it can’t be objective, immutable, unchanging, etc., and they almost always end up nowhere, because people don’t realize that the Truth is not a thing, an ideal, a philosophy, or an idea. It is a Person! “I am the the Truth.” said Jesus. Pilate didn’t get it, even though the Truth was standing right in front of him. Thanks be to Jesus for revealing that He Himself is Truth. He is objectively real and unchangeable, “the same yesterday, today, and forever.” It stands from this, then, that His Word and His Church are also unchangeable in their essences.)

Discernment has been mentioned. Discernment is a gift of the Holy Spirit which enables the Church to see and hear the difference between the two kinds of spirits: Holy and unholy. (“di” meaning two.) That VOTF’s leaders consist of not a few dissenters from Church teaching, should tip us off to something. They’ve most likely learned the mistakes made by other modern dissenting groups such as We Are Church, Future Church, Catholics for Free Choice, etc. (A fuller list of these groups is in Dr. Brian Clowes’ Call to Action or Call to Apostasy.) These groups’ leaders are so obtuse, so obvious in their dissent, that the Faithful can easily hear and discern and reject. VOTF’s approach appears to be clandestine, stealthy, hit-em-with-aleft-hook-when-they-come-to-trust-you-because-you-
appear-so-benign. Does VOTF expect thinking people to accept that they are a “work in-process” regarding their lack of a clear agenda? Be on guard, Church! These leaders have too much education in 'em to waste their time with agenda-less groups. As a replacement acronym for VOTF, how about Voice Of Insurgent Dissenters?

I am grateful for alternative Catholic media through which we can stay informed. Thanks to all who have contributed to this topic.

-James the Least

 

[katherine2]

ByzCath:

Really?

Yes, really.

Their goal is not to represent the faithful but they chose “Voice of the Faithful” as their name.

Yep. Just like The Society of Jesus and The University of Notre Dame.

They call for the laity’s representation in parochial and diocesean initiatives (I left out the word “appropriate” as it doesn’t really fit) which they do so by demanding that they be heard and they be part of that representation.

No. VOTF has never suggested this lay consultation ne exclusively with VOTF members.

The diocese is the bishop’s responsibility, not the laity’s.

If the bishop wants to hear from them he will.

Well, the quick answer would be if the diocese is his responsibility, let him finance it.

But the truth is that the Church is the responsibility of all of us, each in different ways. Flippant comments like yoru simply are not reconcilable with a serious understanding of the Catholic Church.

The Bishop has a moral and canonical duty to consult with the laity.

The Church is not a democracy.

Nor is it an autocracy. It is the Pilgrim People of God; the Mystical Body of Christ.

As has been stated elsewhere in this thread, we can not really tell what the VOTF is for from reading their statements. So the only way we can tell right now is by looking who they are keeping company with and that is dissenters.

Ah, yes, judgement by website review.

Each faithful Catholic is free to make their own judgement about VOTF. But it is clear that some people have a distaste for reflection and a bias towards the reguritation of tired old formulas.

The “Voice of the Faithful” is not the voice of the faithful but it is the voice of the dissenters. So I lobby for a name change from VOTF to VOTD.

Why don’t you bring that up at the next meeting.

 

[Gratias_Grace]

According to Deal W. Hudson’s article "When Wolves Dress Like Sheep: A Close Look At “The Voice Of The Faithful” presented at the website of Catholic Exchange, VOTF are not what they pretend to be.

Enjoy the article. It’s very informative:

catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=2&art_id=14843

G.G.

 

[katherine2]

Gratias Grace:

According to Deal W. Hudson’s article "When Wolves Dress Like Sheep: A Close Look At “The Voice Of The Faithful” presented at the website of Catholic Exchange, VOTF are not what they pretend to be.

Enjoy the article. It’s very informative:

G.G.

Imagine that. Deal Hudson writing about wolves dressed like sheep. How about wolves dressed like a university professor getting his underage student drunk and perfoming a sex act on her.

 

[Pandora]

Voices of the Unfaithful bled us to death here. The are the cause of church closings. They told people to withhold money and now they cry that the churches close. Avoid them at all cost. They are all disenting catholics and yes the small c was intentional.
Kathy

 

[AmyS]

Pandora:

Voices of the Unfaithful bled us to death here. The are the cause of church closings. They told people to withhold money and now they cry that the churches close. Avoid them at all cost. They are all disenting catholics and yes the small c was intentional.
Kathy

We don’t have them out here… Why did they tell people to withhold money? If you don’t mind me asking.

 

[Pandora]

Amy I will have to send you a private message as the Boston problem is very long and sad. Tonight I am tired so I will send you a PM tomorrow. And no I don’t mind you asking. I also know a number of VOTF or unfaithful as I call them. One is my older sister.
Kathy

 

[AmyS]

Pandora:

Amy I will have to send you a private message as the Boston problem is very long and sad. Tonight I am tired so I will send you a PM tomorrow. And no I don’t mind you asking. I also know a number of VOTF or unfaithful as I call them. One is my older sister.
Kathy

Thanks Kathy… I am really sorry to hear all that. Tomorrow so great.

 

[aridite]

katherine2:

Imagine that. Deal Hudson writing about wolves dressed like sheep. How about wolves dressed like a university professor getting his underage student drunk and perfoming a sex act on her.

Ah, yes, judgment by character assassination. As Deal admits, this was reprehensible. He’s repented and made restitution (of course not fully – but as the lawyers demanded) and continues to pay with his reputation. That said, is the article false?