VOTF

[Theodred]

Weeorphan:

Dear Theodred:

It seems we can’t quote Scripture OR Church history without your expressing clerical indignation. One might infer from your bitter, indignant tone that you still hold to that justified medieval attitude spawned in the dark ages where only clerics could read, write, understand or quote Scripture and Church history. You might consider uncollaring your biased perspective on occasion to draw in a breath of fresh air, to finally notice that times have dramatically changed, that we First-world peoples are much better educated in all disciplines, that the Internet has loosed a torrent of once arcane information now easily accessed by unlettered, unfettered lay folks. You may finally come to realize that neither the medics nor the attorneys nor the clergy have exclusive access to their respective domains anymore. It must be so threatening to prestigious professionals who cling to concepts of privileged knowledge, to pedestals of high status, but the great leveler, the great humbler called Advanced Technology is at work here — with no turning back.

Without high technology’s swift, uncensored communication, perhaps the clergy scandal would have continued undetected and unheralded. This tectonic shift in technolgy might also explain the multimillion dollar tsunami settlements sweeping the Church through SNAP’s internet collaborations, and why the computer literate laity in VOTF is gathering more support for participation in the governance and guidance of its Church. It is understandable that professionals like yourself would resist this threatening change from high technology, so we forgive you. But again we have to request, *please refrain from your ‘put down’ comments which only belie the grace and dignity of your spiritual calling. *

That is probably the best example of nonsensical rhetoric that I’ve seen in a long time. At any rate, I commend you on your purchase of that thesaurus. Or are you using an online one?

 

[Theodred]

It should be becoming increasing clear from reading this thread that there are two currents at work here. One current moves toward changing our church. The other current realizes that only God can change His Church through His grace moving to change us. The second current is how all legitimate reform has taken place in Christ’s Church, and only a brief survey of the Clunaic and Gregorian reforms could have revealed this Mr. Weeorphan. Instead of doing real historical research, however, he would rather use meaningless rhetoric and ideological slogans in an effort to re-write history. That is a common tactic by the fascist liturgical left—to mention just enough history to sound legitimate in effort to fool the common “computer literate” laity, who sadly in this culture are still not historically literate. In the end though, the fascist liturgical left always shows its hand:

the computer literate laity in VOTF

is gathering more support for participation in the governance and guidance of its Church.VOTF’s Church, not God’s. I certainly get your point weeorphan.

 

[Theodred]

Isn’t it revealing that both weeorphan and Katherine assumed that what I meant by “origins of reform” was “clerics”? That’s so typical of their camp. They think first of human solutions, and human machinations, and in the end, their results are just that—human machinations. It’s obvious that they haven’t even attempted to understand what I’ve posted above—that true reform has at its root in conversion of hearts and greater fidelity, not managerial manipulations at odds with what the Church has always taught.

No you don’t need a license to reform the Church, but you do need prayer, fidelity, a desire for truth and not ideology, and above all love for Christ’s Church. Otherwise you are “a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.”

 

[katherine2]

Théodred:

Isn’t it revealing that both weeorphan and Katherine assumed that what I meant by “origins of reform” was “clerics”? That’s so typical of their camp. They think first of human solutions, and human machinations, and in the end, their results are just that—human machinations. It’s obvious that they haven’t even attempted to understand what I’ve posted above—that true reform has at its root in conversion of hearts and greater fidelity, not managerial manipulations at odds with what the Church has always taught.

No you don’t need a license to reform the Church, but you do need prayer, fidelity, a desire for truth and not ideology, and above all love for Christ’s Church. Otherwise you are “a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.”

I don’t disagree with anything you have posted.

 

[Theodred]

katherine2:

I don’t disagree with anything you have posted.

With everything?

If you are willing to criticize your own position, then go ahead. It would save me some typing.

 

[Fiat]

katherine2:

I don’t disagree with anything you have posted.

Hi Katherine2:
I’m glad you were able to see the weaknesses in your position.

Fiat

 

[katherine2]

If I was unclear, I am sorry. Let me reaffirm, I dont; disagree with the statement below.

you don’t need a license to reform the Church, but you do need prayer, fidelity, a desire for truth and not ideology, and above all love for Christ’s Church. Otherwise you are “a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.”

 

[Fiat]

Too bad you don’t agree with other statements. I’m beginning to see this isn’t really a dialogue as much as it is two monologues talking past one another. Given the results of the poll, you have a lot more talking to do on this one…

Fiat

 

[Weeorphan]

****Dear Theodred: ****

---

If you came across a church filled with worshipers at night just starting to burn, would you:
**** a. debate who has license to put out the fire, fumbling around in shock and confusion while hoping proper church ‘authorities’ will take care of it? ****
or ****
**** b. run to the church to alert and rescue its endangered inhabitants — without regard for license or protocol?

---

To its great credit, VOTF is attempting a vitally important rescue, despite its membership flaws.

---

****Apparently the many (119 to 9) on this forum who voted for ‘Status Quo’ have not fully realized how serious the conflagration upon our Church. The article below should help you, the many, clearly see the mounting flames of criminal conduct by our formidably untaintable, untouchable ‘Hierarchy’. ****

---

****It has become abundantly apparent from this clergy scandal of historic proportions, that Holy Orders does not guarantee salvation nor divine wisdom nor moral authority. It is high time for our clergy and laity to realize this fact: that the outward trappings of institutional religion, its rituals and homilies, its rich trappings, soaring cathedrals, and its pomp and circumstance, valuable as these can be for spiritual formation, are all merely pointers … guideposts and road signs to the sanctifying grace of divine union with the indwelling Christ. ****

---

*****“The time shall come when men worship not in temples of stone, but in spirit and truth.” *****

---

****When religion makes its clergy and rituals the revered goal, the end in itself rather than the means to reverent holiness, then the Church has become foolish and corrupted, … in desperate need of renewal. ****VOTF may not be the vehicle for this purgation, but it is long overdue, and the Holy Spirit’s flames are seizing upon Her now.

---

---

---

I********ncriminating Documents Prove Church Tried To “Keep Lid” on Child Rape

 

[Weeorphan]

Unique New Lawsuit To Be Filed Showing Archdiocesan Cover Up**

For First Time Ever, Written Records of Secrecy & Deception are Revealed**

Diocese Insists Police “Not to be Told” Of New Assaults By Priest

After Criminal Conviction, Priest Is Transferred & Molests More Kids

What:

At a sidewalk news conference, 24 pages of incriminating, previously unpublished internal church documents will be released as part of a lawsuit being filed which charges local Catholic officials with fraud and covering up for a serial predator priest. Documents are posted on SNAPnetwork.org

When:

Thursday, Feb 10, 11:00 A.M.

Where:

In front of the Cousins Center, headquarters of Milwaukee’s Catholic Archdiocese, 3501 S. Lake Drive

Who:

Several victims of clergy sexual abuse and a Minnesota attorney who is handling hundreds of such lawsuits across the country

Details:
Different than other cases filed by Wisconsin clergy abuse victims, for the first time, secret church records will be revealed that clearly show the Archbishop of Milwaukee and top archdiocesan officials intentionally defrauded Catholics as to the true nature of pedophile priests being assigned to parishes and schools.

This case centers on Fr. Siegfried Widera and his abuse of a boy from a devout family that attended St. Andrew’s parish in Delavan in the mid 1970’s. Widera, now deceased, was convicted and on probation for child sexual abuse before his transfer to St. Andrew’s. Still, Milwaukee church leaders moved Widera to this remote parish, failing to warn anyone of his criminal conduct. Widera assaulted another child while at St. Andrew’s and a top church official wrote of trying “to keep the lid on the thing, so no police record would be made” and “convince [the victim’s mother] not to go to the police…” Widera was then transferred to a parish in California where he continued to assault children.

Last year, the California Appeals Court, in a unanimous decision in favor of California plaintiffs abused as children by Widera, wrote that church leaders in Milwaukee were operating what amounted to a pedophile “lend-lease” program by intentionally placing a dangerous sex offender in their state.

Today’s lawsuit is being filed in Milwaukee County on behalf of a man now in his 30s. He will not be present at the event but other Widera victims will speak on his behalf.

Contacts:
Peter Isely, SNAP Midwest Director, cell: 414-429-7259 (SNAPnetwork.org)
Mary Guentner, Local Leader, SNAP Milwaukee, cell 414-418-3191
Jeff Anderson, St. Paul attorney, cell: 612-817-8665 (andersonadvocates.com)

 

[fix]

What makes you think the laity are in better moral shape than the clergy?

 

[wcknight]

Unique New Lawsuit To Be Filed Showing Archdiocesan Cover Up

For First Time Ever, Written Records of Secrecy & Deception are Revealed

Diocese Insists Police “Not to be Told” Of New Assaults By Priest

After Criminal Conviction, Priest Is Transferred & Molests More Kids
…

)

WeeOrphan, what is the purpose for bringing up such allegations on this forum ???

I find such postings dispicable, as it tends to paint the entire clery as being guilty. No matter what the actual numbers may be, even one bad priest is one too many. However you do all the clery a great disservice by bringing up such allegations on a public forum

We already hear far too much of it from our anti-Catholic foes, bantering it about here only gives them more ammunition to justify their prejudices.

We all know about the scandals and the poor direction that some have taken in this regard.

We have some bad apples and those need to be weeded out, fine. The Church needs to handle that, neither VOTF nor any other entity has dominion over how the Church handles that.

The Church hierarchy and the Pope, as guded by the Holy Spirit will make whatever decisions need to be made. Christ did not hand over guidance of His Church to some lay organization, no matter how well thought of, or how objective it may be.

IF you believe Christ’s statement that He entrusted Peter and his successors to lead His Church and that Jesus is with us as long as 2 or more gather in His name, then you will allow the Pope and the Magisterium to govern as the Holy Spirit guides them.

WC

 

[David_Oatney]

Well, since no one else has had the intestinal fortitude to ask, I will:

Despite Katharine’s assertions that VOTF is “faithful,” we know there are a lot of “Call To Action” people involved in VOTF. We all know what CTA’s agenda is.

---

There are many times that reading katharine2’s posts, I am seriously led to believe that she’d fit right in with CTA…

---

So…does she support Call To Action, as well as VOTF?

 

[Weeorphan]

As St. Peter denied our Lord three times when faced with incrimination and damages, so too our clergy and Pope are failing at the crucial hour of need. You want to know why I took the time to write out this scandalous indictment of Milwaukee’s Catholic Archdiocese? Too many Catholics are sweeping the dirt under the rug, and in violent denial of the widespread corruption in our Church. Too many cloaked wolves guard the flock, stalking the pews and confessionals for unwitting prey. They leave nothing undone to persuade young innocent boys to practice homosexuality, and to become priests twofold worse than themselves.

I read in our local Lay Catholic newspaper, ‘Newsnotes’, March 2005 edition, the outrageous fact that Father James Mott, a former pastor of local Saint Patrick’s in North Park, notorious for his homosexual involvement in an online site for homosexual priests, has been given access to the over 700-member student body at the local St Augustine High School. In 2000 Bishop Brom was forced to remove him. The watchdog group Roman Catholic Faithful exposed Father Mott as prominent in the obscene website St Sebastion’s Angels… This diabolical man has been recruiting homosexuals into our clergy for a long time. He has expressed no public repentance for his homosexual reruiting efforts. Despite his outpatient psychological treatment, many parents at St Augustine are refraining from entering their children there, because Fr. Mott has confessional access to them, because there is no gruarantee that he is reformed. Too often such treatment just makes the patient smarter with his deviant behavior, and these parents know it. Here is one good reason Church attendance is down. We don’t trust our clergy anymore, lumping the good with the bad and the ugly.

Do you call this responsible stewardship by Bishop Brom? So many bishops are publicly demonstrating such gross incompetence, it makes it difficult for many of us to believe our lax Hierarchy has the wherewithal to bring about the tough reforms needed in our church. In fact, they seem part of problem, not the solution.

Furthermore, do you really think that the Holy Spirit would confine its renewal activities to a corrupt Hierarchy? Do you not believe that holy layfolk have the authority to speak up? If not, then all of St Paul’s teachings on which our Church is structured must be invalid, since he was not ordained. The laity is as much of a royal priesthood as any clergyman, without the heavy burden of career-climbing prejudice. High ambition has a way of gagging what should be said and done to right a wrong.

Enough. A word to the wise is sufficient.

 

[aimee]

Well, since no one else has had the intestinal fortitude to ask, I will:

Despite Katharine’s assertions that VOTF is “faithful,” we know there are a lot of “Call To Action” people involved in VOTF. We all know what CTA’s agenda is.

---

There are many times that reading katharine2’s posts, I am seriously led to believe that she’d fit right in with CTA…

---

So…does she support Call To Action, as well as VOTF?

So far as I know Katherine2 has never denied she supported CTA, is she still suspended?

 

[4_marks]

I know a couple of the priests and sisters who are solidly associated with and supportive of it. They are quite liberal and were instrumental in my decision not to present myself as a candidate for ordination to the priesthood.

 

[David_Oatney]

4 marks:

I know a couple of the priests and sisters who are solidly associated with and supportive of it. They are quite liberal and were instrumental in my decision not to present myself as a candidate for ordination to the priesthood.

4Marks, this is truly a shame. Perhaps the Lord is still calling you to the priesthood…

---

There are orthodox religious orders out there. Perhaps you can join one and study for the priesthood as a member of one of these religious orders?

 

[4_marks]

4Marks, this is truly a shame. Perhaps the Lord is still calling you to the priesthood…

---

There are orthodox religious orders out there. Perhaps you can join one and study for the priesthood as a member of one of these religious orders?

I am afraid that is unlikely now as I am happily married, and I am certainly not in favor of promoting a married clergy over a celibate one.

Even so, I serve as an active layperson in the life of the parish community to which I have been called.

I am considering pursuing the diaconate. As you may be aware, to do so entails a commitment to another four years of intensive theological and pastoral training while balancing my profession and family life. Yet, despite these difficulties, I am willing to make personal sacrifices once I am convinced that this is the direction that God would have me serve.

 

[ElizabethAnne]

Weeorphan:

However, doesn’t the Church do the same thing, – cater to liberals–, by muffling the fire and brimstone sermons into stale ‘Wonder Bread’ synthetics, as I described in an earlier post? Why? The Church knows who butters its bread, and cannot offend the vast numbers of liberal cafeteria Catholics in the audience, for fear of losing tithes every Sunday.

You seem to be implying that the Catholic Church doesn’t want to lose liberal members because it doesn’t want to decrease its membership. Is that the real motivation? Or is it more that the Catholic Church doesn’t want to push people away from the one, true faith?

It begs the question, do we help cafeteria Catholics more by getting rid of them or by inviting them to Mass with us and calling them to a deeper conversion? And the second question, which is better for the Church?

I would argue that it’s better for the Church not to contain members who openly oppose Church teaching and work against it. Though the membership would be down, I think it’s better to have a few good Catholics than a larger group with those that fight the Church on certain issues.

But is it better for those people to cast them out? I don’t know. I once didn’t understand all of the teachings of the Church, and I thank God that no one threw me out before I came to full understanding. At the same time, more of an effort needs to be made to let them know what they are doing is not permissable.

 

[4_marks]

ElizabethAnne:

You seem to be implying that the Catholic Church doesn’t want to lose liberal members because it doesn’t want to decrease its membership. Is that the real motivation? Or is it more that the Catholic Church doesn’t want to push people away from the one, true faith?

It begs the question, do we help cafeteria Catholics more by getting rid of them or by inviting them to Mass with us and calling them to a deeper conversion? And the second question, which is better for the Church?

I would argue that it’s better for the Church not to contain members who openly oppose Church teaching and work against it. Though the membership would be down, I think it’s better to have a few good Catholics than a larger group with those that fight the Church on certain issues.

But is it better for those people to cast them out? I don’t know. I once didn’t understand all of the teachings of the Church, and I thank God that no one threw me out before I came to full understanding. At the same time, more of an effort needs to be made to let them know what they are doing is not permissable.

The problem with this type of thinking is that when you give 'em an inch, they will take a mile. Cave on divinely revealed tradition, cave on morality, cave on proper liturgical practice, become indistinguishable from Episcopalians.

If this happens, and it could, I’d be seriously tempted to quit Roman Catholicism and flee toward one of the Eastern Orthodox communions.