Voting for Liberty vs Conservatism

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If you have no experience working in healthcare then you may not realize that it is VERY important for anyone who is ill to be surrounded by loved ones. Patients who are in the healthcare system should be assisted and supported by anyone they choose, whether they are born into relationship with them, or not. It benefits the patient, the caregivers, and the entire system when there is more help available. Society pays a terribly high price for the care of those who have no family or loved ones to assist.
When you are admitted to the hospital, you should be able to decide who gets to visit you, having a marriage license should not affect this. Also, I still don’t see why one half of a homosexual couple should be covered by the other guy’s health insurance. This will cause health insurance costs to rise overall, and there is no reason we should be making life easier for homosexual couples on my dime.
Similarly, if a person dies, then their funeral planning and participation should be able to include all who loved them, whether they are born to them, or not.
Couldn’t you just take care of this issue by specifying people in your will?
I think there is some truth to this, but we don’t restrict marriage to those who are able to procreate. They don’t have to be cleared medically as fertile or fruitful prior to the marriage license. And couples that are not able to procreate can still contribute these things to society by adoption.
Homosexuals should not be allowed to adopt kids. The best environment for a child is a two parent heterosexual couple. If homosexuals are allowed to adopt kids, as least some of those kids will become homosexuals because of the example Daddy and Daddy set. This will prevent those kids from procreating and contributing to the survival of society.
 
theawl.com/2012/04/vancouver-supervised-drug-injection-center

What if we could change the way drugs are treated in America and do so like in the link above?

This is kinda what I have in mind with what I am trying to say. Legalized, but still controlled. Obviously there are different problems for different drugs, but its the idea.
Ummm, I see a problem with society paying for an immoral activity. It would not reflect back to individual taxpayers per se, because the cooperation is too remote, bit it would still be society’s paying for and condoning drug use. Moreover, enabling drug addicts in this way will not help them decide to quit. Unfortunately, most people don’t decide to quit doing stuff like that until they start having an unacceptable level of problems with it.
 
When you are admitted to the hospital, you should be able to decide who gets to visit you, having a marriage license should not affect this.

Yes, this is my point. There are reasons for people to want to acquire civil “unions” or privileges that traditionally belong only to spouses or blood relatives other than sex. I work with many blended families who run into horrific problems if the legal adoption or guardianship paperwork has not been done and there is some sort of medical emergency. Step parents who have been the main parenting resource are disallowed and even a child who has come of age cannot access this support. The same holds true for those who are in detention or incarcerated. Lists of visitors are limited to blood relatives, even if the teen finds another adult more supportive or attentive. It is really tragic.
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  Also, I still don't see why one half of a homosexual couple should be covered by the other guy's health insurance.  This will cause health insurance costs to rise overall, and there is no reason we should be making life easier for homosexual couples on my dime.
I don’t think this is true. Lack of health coverage for anyone is what raises the cost of health care. Adding non-relatives to a plan ulitimately reduces the burden on indigent provider systems, since those who cannot quailify for a plan ulitmately will strain the healthcare system by using resources not supported by insurance.

I wish I could add my adult sibling to my plan for just this reason. If it were legal, I would create a civil union, just because I am sure if he had sufficient treatment, he would be employable. It is much more beneficial to society to have everyone who is able to work, employed.
Couldn’t you just take care of this issue by specifying people in your will?
Yes. It is while people are still alive that problems exist.
Homosexuals should not be allowed to adopt kids. The best environment for a child is a two parent heterosexual couple. If homosexuals are allowed to adopt kids, as least some of those kids will become homosexuals because of the example Daddy and Daddy set. This will prevent those kids from procreating and contributing to the survival of society.
This is a common myth. While I don’t disagree that the best environment for a child is a two parent heterosexual couple (this is God’s plan for families) there are a number of erroneous assumptions at work in such a position. One is that a two parent heterosexual couple is healthy and able to parent. Whereas there are some that are frought with violence, substance abuse, and sexual abuse, in which cases, it causes less harm to a child to place them with ANY other kind of living situation where these problems do not exist, regardless of the sexual orientation.

People do not “become homosexual” as a result of “the example” set by others. While environment can be a factor in lifestyle choices, sexuality is hard wired prior to birth. Being homosexual also does not prevent procreating, as there are ways for homosexual couples to arrange for procreation outside of the natural marital embrace.
 
Ummm, I see a problem with society paying for an immoral activity. It would not reflect back to individual taxpayers per se, because the cooperation is too remote, bit it would still be society’s paying for and condoning drug use. Moreover, enabling drug addicts in this way will not help them decide to quit. Unfortunately, most people don’t decide to quit doing stuff like that until they start having an unacceptable level of problems with it.
This is the same position taken by the prohibition movement when the attempt was made to eliminate the use of alcohol. History can teach us some important lessons on this point.
 
This is the same position taken by the prohibition movement when the attempt was made to eliminate the use of alcohol. History can teach us some important lessons on this point.
The problem is that some drinking is not immoral. It is becoming drunk that is immoral, and for the same reason that drug use is immoral: the diminution of the use of reason that occurs.
 
The problem is that some drinking is not immoral. It is becoming drunk that is immoral, and for the same reason that drug use is immoral: the diminution of the use of reason that occurs.
Oh I agree! But there is moderation in the use of chemicals that is also not immoral. It is not a black and white issue, as many seem to think. Some mind altering substances have been used by indiginious peoples since the dawn of mankind, and have never produced immoral behavior.
 
Oh I agree! But there is moderation in the use of chemicals that is also not immoral. It is not a black and white issue, as many seem to think. Some mind altering substances have been used by indiginious peoples since the dawn of mankind, and have never produced immoral behavior.
This
 
Oh I agree! But there is moderation in the use of chemicals that is also not immoral. It is not a black and white issue, as many seem to think. Some mind altering substances have been used by indiginious peoples since the dawn of mankind, and have never produced immoral behavior.
If it’s “mind-altering,” the problem is not that it produces immoral behavior–herion seems to produce a stupor rather than any behavior–but that it alters the mind.

And the fact that indigenous peoples have done something has no bearing on Catholic teaching 😉
 
Oh I agree! But there is moderation in the use of chemicals that is also not immoral. It is not a black and white issue, as many seem to think. Some mind altering substances have been used by indiginious peoples since the dawn of mankind, and have never produced immoral behavior.
SHOULD ‘SOFT’ DRUGS BE LEGALIZED?
Pontifical Council for the Family
The legalization of drugs implies the risk of causing the opposite effect to that sought. In fact, it is easy to admit that what is legal is normal and therefore moral. Through the legalization of drugs, it is not the product that is thereby legalized, but rather the reasons leading to the consumption of this product that are justified. Now, no one will deny that drug use is an evil. Whether drugs are illegally purchased or distributed by the State, they are always harmful to man.
The difference between drug addiction and alcoholism was emphasized in these terms by the Holy Father John Paul 11: “It is true that there is a distinct difference between the use of drugs and the use of alcohol: while a moderate use of the latter as a drink does not offend moral principles, only its abuse can be condemned; instead, the use of drugs is always unlawful because it implies an unjustified and unreasonable renunciation of thinking, desiring and acting as a free person” (, 19, VII, 1992, n. 1).
I cannot see how the Church would approve of drug legalization?
 
If it’s “mind-altering,” the problem is not that it produces immoral behavior–herion seems to produce a stupor rather than any behavior–but that it alters the mind.

And the fact that indigenous peoples have done something has no bearing on Catholic teaching 😉
The fact of the matter is that Alcohol is far more dangerous and costly spiritually, mentally, physically, legally and economically than all the other substances put together.

Alcohol certainly causes stupor, as well as preciptitates vast amounts of immoral and illegal behavior. There are far more social and legal offenses related to alcohol than there are to marijuana and many other substances.
 
SHOULD ‘SOFT’ DRUGS BE LEGALIZED?
Pontifical Council for the Family

I cannot see how the Church would approve of drug legalization?
No. Not as long as the hierarchy deny that alcohol itself is drug. 🤷
 
The fact of the matter is that Alcohol is far more dangerous and costly spiritually, mentally, physically, legally and economically than all the other substances put together.
And *as I pointed out already, *the Church teaches that *drunkenness, *the source if the problems you point out. is also a sin, for the exact same reason.
Alcohol certainly causes stupor, as well as preciptitates vast amounts of immoral and illegal behavior.
When imbibed to a sinful excess, yes. But not in moral amounts.
There are far more social and legal offenses related to alcohol than there are to marijuana and many other substances.
I am quite sure you are right. Why? Because there are far more heavy drinkers than there are drug users…
 
When you are admitted to the hospital, you should be able to decide who gets to visit you, having a marriage license should not affect this.
We have still not determined that any *hospital *keeps unrelated people from visiting patients.
There are reasons for people to want to acquire civil “unions” or privileges that traditionally belong only to spouses or blood relatives other than sex. I work with many blended families who run into horrific problems if the legal adoption or guardianship paperwork has not been done and there is some sort of medical emergency. Step parents who have been the main parenting resource are disallowed and even a child who has come of age cannot access this support.
So how does this show that we should allow people of the same sex to marry? Step-parents already *are *married, so SSM would not solve any of these problems, would it?
The same holds true for those who are in detention or incarcerated. Lists of visitors are limited to blood relatives, even if the teen finds another adult more supportive or attentive. It is really tragic.
Again, how would SSM change this? Suppose a teen finds a teacher and her husband to be more supportive adults, how would SSM fix this problem?
I don’t think this is true. Lack of health coverage for anyone is what raises the cost of health care.
Lack of health care coverage is not what raises health care costs, but that is a topic for another thread.

However, even were this to be true, it is not a rationale for allowing SSM. One, that would allow coverage for under 2% of the population, even if all the uninsured people afflicted with SSA were to find and “marry” insured people with SSA.

Moreover, the rationale for extending health care to families is that families provide the future of our society. Homosexual couples do not procreate, and are therefore not contributing children to society and therefore have no claim to family benefits.
Adding non-relatives to a plan ulitimately reduces the burden on indigent provider systems, since those who cannot quailify for a plan ulitmately will strain the healthcare system by using resources not supported by insurance.
So why is SSM a solution to this problem? What about all the people who are unmarried for other reasons? How many of the homeless men would end up being covered if SSM were to go into effect?
I wish I could add my adult sibling to my plan for just this reason. If it were legal, I would create a civil union, just because I am sure if he had sufficient treatment, he would be employable. It is much more beneficial to society to have everyone who is able to work, employed.
Is the legalization of SSM going to help your brother? What if you had 3 brothers in that situation? Maybe we should just allow anyone to marry as many anybodies as they want to get on their health insurance? That sounds like it would cover way more people than SSM would.
Yes. It is while people are still alive that problems exist.
Of course it is death which necessitates funerals.
This is a common myth. While I don’t disagree that the best environment for a child is a two parent heterosexual couple (this is God’s plan for families) there are a number of erroneous assumptions at work in such a position. One is that a two parent heterosexual couple is healthy and able to parent. Whereas there are some that are frought with violence, substance abuse, and sexual abuse, in which cases, it causes less harm to a child to place them with ANY other kind of living situation where these problems do not exist, regardless of the sexual orientation.
Oh, that’s right, compare the worst heterosexual parenting situation to the “ideal” SS couple. Not a valid argument, and certainly not a valid argument for *experimenting *with other people’s children.
People do not “become homosexual” as a result of “the example” set by others. While environment can be a factor in lifestyle choices, sexuality is hard wired prior to birth.
There is no evidence for this hard-wired before birth idea.

And there is one large meta-study of children with homosexual parents done by people sympathetic to SSM which showed increased experimentation or willingness to experiment with homosexual activity. This was not considered a bad outcome by those who did the studies involved, but if homosexuality is so bad that that is itself used to justify the “hard-wired” argument (no one would be this way by choice, ergo, it must be hard-wired), then what can one make of this finding?
Being homosexual also does not prevent procreating, as there are ways for homosexual couples to arrange for procreation outside of the natural marital embrace.
Of course being homosexual does not prevent procreating; there are many stories of people marrying a person of the opposite sex, having children, and then announcing or discovering one’s homosexual temptations.

And if the procreation you are referring to through “ways for homosexual couples to arrange for procreation outside of the natural marital embrace” is what you mean, well, first, this is not “the natural marital embrace,” and second, just goes to prove the already obvious lack of procreativeness inherent in the act.
 
Yes, this is my point. There are reasons for people to want to acquire civil “unions” or privileges that traditionally belong only to spouses or blood relatives other than sex. I work with many blended families who run into horrific problems if the legal adoption or guardianship paperwork has not been done and there is some sort of medical emergency. Step parents who have been the main parenting resource are disallowed and even a child who has come of age cannot access this support. The same holds true for those who are in detention or incarcerated. Lists of visitors are limited to blood relatives, even if the teen finds another adult more supportive or attentive. It is really tragic.
Change the visiting rules, don’t change the license.
I don’t think this is true. Lack of health coverage for anyone is what raises the cost of health care. Adding non-relatives to a plan ulitimately reduces the burden on indigent provider systems, since those who cannot quailify for a plan ulitmately will strain the healthcare system by using resources not supported by insurance.
If you allow Steve to get on Joe’s plan, my payments will go up. How do I benefit from this?
I wish I could add my adult sibling to my plan for just this reason. If it were legal, I would create a civil union, just because I am sure if he had sufficient treatment, he would be employable. It is much more beneficial to society to have everyone who is able to work, employed.
It is much more beneficial to society if only the workers who are actually needed are employed.
This is a common myth. While I don’t disagree that the best environment for a child is a two parent heterosexual couple (this is God’s plan for families) there are a number of erroneous assumptions at work in such a position. One is that a two parent heterosexual couple is healthy and able to parent. Whereas there are some that are frought with violence, substance abuse, and sexual abuse, in which cases, it causes less harm to a child to place them with ANY other kind of living situation where these problems do not exist, regardless of the sexual orientation.
There are plenty of homosexual couples with similar problems.
People do not “become homosexual” as a result of “the example” set by others. While environment can be a factor in lifestyle choices, sexuality is hard wired prior to birth.
That is a silly statement, If homosexuality was the genetic code, it would have died out years ago, because homosexual couples don’t reproduce.
Being homosexual also does not prevent procreating, as there are ways for homosexual couples to arrange for procreation outside of the natural marital embrace.
But in these cases, is the child being treated as a person or a product?
 
If you allow Steve to get on Joe’s plan, my payments will go up. How do I benefit from this?
More people on health care means less people in emergency rooms. Sick people need to get treated eventually, and doctors are cheaper than emergency rooms, so more people on health care helps everyone. Anyone not on health care will go to an expensive emergency room where they cannot be turned away, and the extra cost gets passed to you.

Also, how does it benefit you for Steve’s wife to get health care? If only workers should get health care, then people should be forbidden from putting people on their plan of any gender.
That is a silly statement, If homosexuality was the genetic code, it would have died out years ago, because homosexual couples don’t reproduce
Tay-Sachs disease is an inherited, genetic disease.
People with Tay-Sachs disease usually die before they turn 15, and therefore usually do not reproduce.
Tay-Sachs disease has not died out.

Therefore, your hypothesis that any genetic change which keeps someone from reproducing will die out is proven wrong.

Which makes sense for anyone who knows anything about genetics. Assuming there is a “gay gene”, a heterosexual could carry the recessive gene, and therefore keep the trait alive indefinitely. Claiming that a genetic trait which is prohibitive to reproduction will necessarily die out just shows that you didn’t pay attention in biology class.
 
More people on health care means less people in emergency rooms. Sick people need to get treated eventually, and doctors are cheaper than emergency rooms, so more people on health care helps everyone. Anyone not on health care will go to an expensive emergency room where they cannot be turned away, and the extra cost gets passed to you.
Gay people can set up their own health insurance company then.

[quoteAlso, how does it benefit you for Steve’s wife to get health care? If only workers should get health care, then people should be forbidden from putting people on their plan of any gender.
[/quote]There is a good reason for Steve’s wife to get health care. It makes kids more affordable, and more kids means more soldiers and taxpayers, in other words, survival of the state.
Tay-Sachs disease is an inherited, genetic disease.
People with Tay-Sachs disease usually die before they turn 15, and therefore usually do not reproduce.
Tay-Sachs disease has not died out.
Therefore, your hypothesis that any genetic change which keeps someone from reproducing will die out is proven wrong.
Which makes sense for anyone who knows anything about genetics. Assuming there is a “gay gene”, a heterosexual could carry the recessive gene, and therefore keep the trait alive indefinitely. Claiming that a genetic trait which is prohibitive to reproduction will necessarily die out just shows that you didn’t pay attention in biology class.
Tay-Sachs is caused by genetic mutation and it usually but not always kills its victims before they turn 15. If homosexuality is similar as you suggest, then those who have the gay gene because of a mutation will never reproduce because they are, well you know, gay. 🤷
 
Tay-Sachs is caused by genetic mutation and it usually but not always kills its victims before they turn 15. If homosexuality is similar as you suggest, then those who have the gay gene because of a mutation will never reproduce because they are, well you know, gay. 🤷
And, like Tay-Sachs, homosexuality will keep getting passed on even though homosexuals aren’t reproducing.

My point of that statement was to refute the idea that homosexuality cannot be genetic because it hasn’t gone away. There are plenty of genetic traits that are hostile to reproduction that keep getting passed on generation after generation. I don’t know why homosexuality has to have different rules.
 
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Gay people can set up their own health insurance company then.
This is basically what Catholics did in this country. There was strong discrimination againts Catholicism, since many of the founders and all of the Pilgrims were coming here to flee Catholicism.

Catholics started their own schools and hospitals. The government is now requiring these entities to support activities against conscience.
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Tay-Sachs is caused by genetic mutation and it usually but not always kills its victims before they turn 15.  If homosexuality is similar as you suggest, then those who have the gay gene because of a mutation will never reproduce because they are, well you know, gay.  :shrug:
I see the point you are trying to make, and I am not saying that same sex attraction results from a genetic condition (though it may well at least in some cases) your conclusion is false. Apart from the self fertilization used by some couples through surrogate sex (like the way Abraham produced Ishmael), the new lab methods of IVF make it possible for anyone of childbearing capability of having a whole litter of children whether or not they are married, gay, or whatever.
 
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