Voting for Pro Abortion candidates

[AndrewF1995]

The other night on the internet I spoke to someone who is a seminarian, he said “is disappointed at some of the people he follows on here; the Republican Party isn’t the “Catholic Party”, and voting Democrat is okay”

I replied “well its not catholic to vote for any candidate who supports abortion, stem cell research or homosexual marriage”

they went on to say

“Republicans aren’t very pro-life themselves. Supporting an unjust war, the death penalty, embryonic stem cell research. GoBama”

and “We aren’t single issue voters. We need to participate in the future of our country while preserving Catholic Social Teaching”

and

“The dignity [of human life] goes beyond abortion. Also defending others from unjust war, the death penalty, pro-healthcre.”

I said that voting for a pro abortion candidate no matter what is wrong because in a way you are supporting them in everything that they are doing by voting them into office.

He replied with "No, I am not. Is the bus driver who drives the girl to the street where the abortion clinic is guilty? "

Am I wrong with what I was saying? Was he going along with church teaching in what he was saying? I am sort of thinking about this because he is learning to be a priest and I thought he would know better than I do about voting. He is correct?

 

[DallasCatholic]

The other night on the internet I spoke to someone who is a seminarian, he said “is disappointed at some of the people he follows on here; the Republican Party isn’t the “Catholic Party”, and voting Democrat is okay”

I replied “well its not catholic to vote for any candidate who supports abortion, stem cell research or homosexual marriage”

they went on to say

“Republicans aren’t very pro-life themselves. Supporting an unjust war, the death penalty, embryonic stem cell research. GoBama”

and “We aren’t single issue voters. We need to participate in the future of our country while preserving Catholic Social Teaching”

and

“The dignity [of human life] goes beyond abortion. Also defending others from unjust war, the death penalty, pro-healthcre.”

I said that voting for a pro abortion candidate no matter what is wrong because in a way you are supporting them in everything that they are doing by voting them into office.

He replied with "No, I am not. Is the bus driver who drives the girl to the street where the abortion clinic is guilty? "

Am I wrong with what I was saying? Was he going along with church teaching in what he was saying? I am sort of thinking about this because he is learning to be a priest and I thought he would know better than I do about voting. He is correct?

You can look up “The 5 Non-Negotiables” on google, here is a link to one site that lists them:
saviorquest.com/news1/catholicvoters.htm

To answer your friends question; if the bus driver is a Catholic and knows that the girl is going to the abortion clinic to procure an abortion then…yes, he has committed a sin.

 

[tonyg]

The greatest injustice and evil in the world today is the horror of abortion. There is no greater evil than to destroy what God has created in His image and likeness. We have entered into a time where middle ground no longer exists. We are either at the north pole faces upward to God and heaven, or, at the south pole facing downward to hell by following the deceptions of the evil one that is confusing and minipulating even God’s chosen ones; that includes some religious.

 

[Julian0404]

The other night on the internet I spoke to someone who is a seminarian, he said “is disappointed at some of the people he follows on here; the Republican Party isn’t the “Catholic Party”, and voting Democrat is okay”

I replied “well its not catholic to vote for any candidate who supports abortion, stem cell research or homosexual marriage”

they went on to say

"Republicans aren’t very pro-life themselves. True some can be as “democrat(ic)” oriented as the democrats and they generally lose their elections to democrats.

Supporting an unjust war, The war was declared “unjust” by the Vatican, but the “just war theory” was in place before WMD’s, so that whole definition has to be revisited. In order to protect your life in todays modern weapons theater, you may not get a chance for “defense” - which is what the Just War Theor is founded upon. However, that being said, both sides are armed and dangerous.

the death penalty,The death penalty is another issue that needs to be revisted by some nations, as we now have the means to keep a dangerous person locked up for life. However, a major point here is that we are not dealing with “innocent” victims. Yes there have been a few very sad occasstion, but generally we are dealing with people who have lost their conscience for killing us.

embryonic stem cell research -the Pope has recently called out Jeremiah 1;5 as biblical proof that life begins at conception, so killing embryo’s is murder. Secondly - there has NEVER been anything cured with embryonic stem cells, ALL the cures have come from ADULT stem cells, which are o.k. to harvest.

. GoBama"

and "We aren’t single issue voters. political spin to make you feel guilty. No we are not single issue voters, but we ALWAYS vote to save life first, then vote the other issues, and therefore, if a candidate wants the Catholic “faithful’s” vote, do not put up a firewall issue like abortion, in front of their proclaimed agenda.

We need to participate in the future of our country while preserving Catholic Social Teaching"-That is exactly the goal of the PROLIFE efforts within the Catholic Church. If you embrace the murder of innocents within the “safest place on earth” - their mothers wombs- then you cannot even enter into a disucssion of Catholic Social Teaching, because you “just don’t get it”.

and

“The dignity [of human life] goes beyond abortion. Also defending others from unjust war, the death penalty, pro-healthcre.” -except when the healthcare is discovered (after finally reading it) to contain government funded abortion through “our” tax dollars. That is not “…defending others…”

I said that voting for a pro abortion candidate no matter what is wrong because in a way you are supporting them in everything that they are doing by voting them into office.

He replied with "No, I am not. Is the bus driver who drives the girl to the street where the abortion clinic is guilty? " - “IF” the bus driver knew he was driving the girl to an abortion, then YES, he would be guilty by complicity. Most bus drivers do not have that kind of knowledge, but if we assist or help or suggest or provide money, rides, phone calls, emotional support etc. all designed to assist someone with an abortion, we are as guilty of murder as an accompolice.

Am I wrong with what I was saying? NO, you are right on. Hang tough and pray for the seminarian, that the HOLY SPIRIT will a grip on his soul and make it a home for the truth

Was he going along with church teaching in what he was saying? I am sort of thinking about this because he is learning to be a priest and I thought he would know better than I do about voting. He is correct? -"he is HORRIBLY wrong and will be the source of many mortal sins if he is ordained and adivses others as he is advising you. Pray to release souls from Purgatory with the petition that they in turn fly into heaven and petition before the throne of GOD for the intercession of the HOLY SPIRIT upon this mans soul.

 

[GIR]

All these other “rights” that he mentions ring kind of hollow when you realize that a human being can be killed legally at its most defenceless stage.

 

[Canto]

Pope John Paul II apostolic exhortation on the vocation and mission of the laity, Christifideles Laici, states:

“The inviolability of the person which is a reflection of the absolute inviolability of God finds its primary and fundamental expression in the inviolability of human life. Above all, the common outcry, which is justly made on behalf of **human rights **-- for example, the right to health, to home, to work, to family, to culture – is false and illusory if the right to life, the most basic and fundamental right and the condition for all other personal rights, is not defended with maximum determination…. The human being is entitled to such rights, in every phase of development, from conception until natural death; and in every condition, whether healthy or sick, whole or handicapped, rich or poor” (38).

CCC 2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I would note that Cardinal-to-be Burke is the Church’s highest legal authority. On the other hand a seminarian is probably near the lowest. I’ll go with Cardinal-to-be Burke.

 

[JackQ]

You can look up “The 5 Non-Negotiables” on google, here is a link to one site that lists them:
saviorquest.com/news1/catholicvoters.htm

To answer your friends question; if the bus driver is a Catholic and knows that the girl is going to the abortion clinic to procure an abortion then…yes, he has committed a sin.

The five non-negotiables were not promulgated by any official Church body. The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops has a document entitled Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship that is up at their website. Even that document probably doesn’t rise to the level of magisterial, but since it is put out by the USCCB, it is probably a little more authoritative than the five non-negotiables. Here’s the link:

/www.usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/FCStatement.pdf

 

[AndrewF1995]

Thank you everyone for all this information! I think I should forward this to them… I am glad that I was standing up for the right thing and not just making my self look stupid…

 

[Vince1022]

The other night on the internet I spoke to someone who is a seminarian, he said “is disappointed at some of the people he follows on here; the Republican Party isn’t the “Catholic Party”, and voting Democrat is okay”

I replied “well its not catholic to vote for any candidate who supports abortion, stem cell research or homosexual marriage”

they went on to say

“Republicans aren’t very pro-life themselves. Supporting an unjust war, the death penalty, embryonic stem cell research. GoBama”

and “We aren’t single issue voters. We need to participate in the future of our country while preserving Catholic Social Teaching”

and

“The dignity [of human life] goes beyond abortion. Also defending others from unjust war, the death penalty, pro-healthcre.”

I said that voting for a pro abortion candidate no matter what is wrong because in a way you are supporting them in everything that they are doing by voting them into office.

He replied with "No, I am not. Is the bus driver who drives the girl to the street where the abortion clinic is guilty? "

Am I wrong with what I was saying? Was he going along with church teaching in what he was saying? I am sort of thinking about this because he is learning to be a priest and I thought he would know better than I do about voting. He is correct?

You’re saying “well its not catholic to vote for any candidate who supports abortion, stem cell research or homosexual marriage” is not exactly correct.

Yes, Catholics cannot vote for abortion, some forms of stem cell research, and homosexual marriage, as the Catholic Church teaches. Those are ISSUES.

The Catholic Church does not teach about voting for or against certain CANDIDATES. Only ISSUES.

 

[Holly3278]

I think that first abortion needs to be made absolutely and totally illegal with the punishment of life imprisonment for anyone who procures or performs an abortion. Those who advise for an abortion should get the same. Also, anyone who votes for someone who is pro-abortion needs to be excommunicated and imprisoned until total repentance comes!

 

[JackQ]

I think that first abortion needs to be made absolutely and totally illegal with the punishment of life imprisonment for anyone who procures or performs an abortion. Those who advise for an abortion should get the same. Also, anyone who votes for someone who is pro-abortion needs to be excommunicated and imprisoned until total repentance comes!

Well, that’s what you think. But can you point us to any authoritative Church documents that say this is what should happen?

 

[JackQ]

The five non-negotiables were not promulgated by any official Church body. The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops has a document entitled Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship that is up at their website. Even that document probably doesn’t rise to the level of magisterial, but since it is put out by the USCCB, it is probably a little more authoritative than the five non-negotiables. Here’s the link:

/www.usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/FCStatement.pdf

I’m sorry, I tried the link myself and couldn’t get it to work. But you can find it on the USCCB website.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Well, that’s what you think. But can you point us to any authoritative Church documents that say this is what should happen?

You might check some of Archbishop Burke’s statements

Catholics who support abortion should not receive Communion, says Archbishop Burke

The prefect of the Apostolic Signatura, Archbishop Raymond Burke, said this week that Catholics, especially politicians, who publically defend abortion should not receive Communion, and that ministers of Communion should be responsibly charitable in denying it to them if they ask for it, “until they have reformed their lives.”

Note that the Apostolic Sibnatura is the highest court in the Catholic Church.

Holy Father and Archbishop Burke On Abortion and Voting

I

n an interview with Catholic Action, conducted shortly after the announcement that he would be elevated to the College of Cardinals in November, the former Archbishop of St. Louis said flatly that one 'can never vote for someone who favors absolutely the right to choice of a woman to destroy a human life in her womb or the right to a procured abortion.’"

Is it a sin to vote for a pro-choice candidate?

Sl.Today.com reported the Archbishop as saying “Catholics in St. Louis who vote for political candidates supportive of abortion rights have committed a grave sin in the eyes of the church, and should confess and do penance before receiving Communion.”

Try Archbishop Burke and abortion in Google and you will get many more.

 

[JackQ]

You might check some of Archbishop Burke’s statements

Catholics who support abortion should not receive Communion, says Archbishop Burke

Note that the Apostolic Sibnatura is the highest court in the Catholic Church.

Holy Father and Archbishop Burke On Abortion and Voting

I**Is it a sin to vote for a pro-choice candidate?**

Try Archbishop Burke and abortion in Google and you will get many more.

I’m well aware of what Atchbishop Burke’s position is (isn’t he a Cardinal now?).I have immense respect for him, but he is not the Pope, nor is he an ecumenical council unto himself. He is a bishop, and if he was my bishop I would be compelled to vote as he directed. But he is not my bishop, and I believe that the position that he has taken on this issue betrays a fundamental lack of appreciation of how the American system of governance works. I have laid out my position elsewhere on these forums, if you are curious. Suffice it to say for present purposes that his position would make more sense if we were electing one person with dictatorial powers every four years. But in my view, his position lacks coherency as applied to a federalist system with separation of powers. Having said that, I have no problem at all with the position that legislators who support abortion should be denied communion.

 

[Vince1022]

I’m well aware of what Atchbishop Burke’s position is (isn’t he a Cardinal now?).I have immense respect for him, but he is not the Pope, nor is he an ecumenical council unto himself. He is a bishop, and if he was my bishop I would be compelled to vote as he directed. But he is not my bishop, and I believe that the position that he has taken on this issue betrays a fundamental lack of appreciation of how the American system of governance works. I have laid out my position elsewhere on these forums, if you are curious. Suffice it to say for present purposes that his position would make more sense if we were electing one person with dictatorial powers every four years. But in my view, his position lacks coherency as applied to a federalist system with separation of powers. Having said that, I have no problem at all with the position that legislators who support abortion should be denied communion.

He will be installed as a Cardinal at the next consistory.

 

[karoleck]

youtube.com/watch?v=y3WHP7Q5dp8

I posted this clip on Ignore This—a non issue thread which I enjoy all the same—however it was suggested by a learned person called The Reginator and seconded by Peggy in Burien that I start a new thread using this Link as a topic.However I think that this thread rather fits this topic without starting another one.I hope this is OK. “On Ignore This” ,I asked prayers for Victoria—not a person(though it effects human life directly) but the State of Victoria.After seeing this movie clip you will see how this debate crosses to other countries and nations.(there is a world that exists outside the wonderful United States of America!!)

I believe there is an axis of evil going on,a battle of ideas and moral values,in the political and social structures around the world.One of the places that the evil one has got a hold of is the State of Victoria,Australia.The movie clip is set in the town of Melbourne,the film is self explanatory–links up the USA & Victoria very well.Even as I type the Ambassador of the USA–Hilary Clinton is in the heart of this City(guest of the head man who’s government voted in the" worst Aborton Bill in the Western World" quote from the clip…From this city Peter Singer,the animal “rights” man who now teaches at Princeton University USA came from–he teaches that a sick baby has no right to be born!!

An election will be held in Melbourne towards the end of this month.The ArchBishop has issued a letter asking Catholics to vote only for people who uphold life.I wonder if people will heed his message? As for ArchBishop Bourke(soon Cardinal) he is such a shining light–I happen to wear a St.Benedict Cross that he kindly blessed in Rome–hope I am worthy of it!I hope I am not out of line.God Bless.

 

[John21652]

Well, that’s what you think. But can you point us to any authoritative Church documents that say this is what should happen?

Holly 3278 had the courage to let us know how much she hates abortion and she gave us an opinion on what she thinks should be done to those who advocate abortion. You come out and denigrate her for expressing what she clearly stated was what she thinks. Now why the blazes should she point you in the direction of “…authoritative Church documents that say this is what should happen”? It is people like Holly, not scared of saying what she thinks, that will give some backbone to Church leaders in making a stand on these issues. Your pointed remark to Holly was uncalled for.

Here’s what I think - those who support, procure and practice abortions should be placed in stocks in the public square and mercilessly pelted with rotten fruit and then be dealt with harshly by the Law. And no, there are no “…authoritative Church documents to say this is what should happen”!!

 

[estesbob]

I’m well aware of what Atchbishop Burke’s position is (isn’t he a Cardinal now?).I have immense respect for him, but he is not the Pope, nor is he an ecumenical council unto himself. He is a bishop, and if he was my bishop I would be compelled to vote as he directed. But he is not my bishop, and I believe that the position that he has taken on this issue betrays a fundamental lack of appreciation of how the American system of governance works. I have laid out my position elsewhere on these forums, if you are curious. Suffice it to say for present purposes that his position would make more sense if we were electing one person with dictatorial powers every four years. But in my view, his position lacks coherency as applied to a federalist system with separation of powers. Having said that, I have no problem at all with the position that legislators who support abortion should be denied communion.

So legislators who support abortion are guilty of grevious sin but Catholics who vote them into office are not? At the end of World War II would it have a been your contention that we should punish those who ran the gas chambers but not those who appointed them to do so?

It appears to me that you’re trying to twist Catholic teaching in a futile attempt to support your political views . If you reject the Church teaching on abortion that is between you and God-if, however, you try to convince other Catholics that such a rejection is in any way shape or form in accordance with the teachings of the Church you need to be publicly corrected.

 

[JackQ]

Holly 3278 had the courage to let us know how much she hates abortion and she gave us an opinion on what she thinks should be done to those who advocate abortion. You come out and denigrate her for expressing what she clearly stated was what she thinks. Now why the blazes should she point you in the direction of “…authoritative Church documents that say this is what should happen”? It is people like Holly, not scared of saying what she thinks, that will give some backbone to Church leaders in making a stand on these issues. Your pointed remark to Holly was uncalled for.

Here’s what I think - those who support, procure and practice abortions should be placed in stocks in the public square and mercilessly pelted with rotten fruit and then be dealt with harshly by the Law. And no, there are no “…authoritative Church documents to say this is what should happen”!!

Gee I hate to boast, but what I do is repeatedly articulate a pro-life position, on my own program, on a “progressive” radio station to an audience hostile to that position, with open phone lines. On said program I have articulated my position that abortion should be punished with the same penalty as manslaughter, as was the case at common law.

Now this is a thread dealing with how Catholics should vote. It is appropriate to interpret everything that is said in this thread in that context. It is also appropriate to point out that there are no magisterial documents stating that Catholics should vote in the manner described, with abortion as a litmus test, and that, indeed, the document put out by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops on faithful citizenship precisely does not take such a position. Yet there are numerous posters here, and many who state the same position elsewhere, that a politician’s articulation of pro-life views as it pertains to abortion requires all Catholics to vote for him, regardless of his position on other issues. Often this is presented as something other than a personal opinion, which it most surely is.

In the last analysis, the source for all of this is a cynical attempt to spiritually intimidate sincere Catholics into voting for Republicans. The positive proof for this is the way that a vote for the latest health care reform legislation has been equated with a pro-abortion vote. Representative Bart Stupak, a Democrat, took positive steps to ensure that the legislation could not be legitimately interpreted to allow for abortion funding, which would be in violation of the Hyde Amendment anyway. As you probably know he was visited with ill-informed hysteria that he had sold out to the abortionists. Well, he did not sell out to the abortionists, nor did any of the other pro-life Democrats in Congress. Nonetheless, I came upon a “pro-life” website crowing that a number of pro-life Democrats had been voted out in the recent election (because, of course, only a Republican can be authentically pro-life). Meanwhile, a vote against the recent health-care reform had nothing to do with being pro-life, and everything to do with enriching insurance companies.

So, I’m sorry if Holly was offended, although I suspect she’s a better judge of that than you are. But I will resist with all my might the attempt to co-opt the Catholic vote into the Republican party, as was done with the Evangelical vote, so that the neoconservatives can pursue their bellicose and robberbaron policies. That will include opposing with firmness the false doctrine that a Catholic vote is a Republican vote. In the meantime, I will pray for the conversion of those who support and practice abortion while you’re throwing rotten fruit at them.