Voting for Pro Abortion candidates

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So can a Catholic in good conscience support a “pro-choice” candidate? The answer is:* I can’t and I won’t*. But I do know some serious Catholics — people whom I admire — who will. I think their reasoning is mistaken. But at the very least they do sincerely struggle with the abortion issue, and it causes them real pain. And even more importantly: They don’t keep quiet about it; they don’t give up their efforts to end permissive abortion; they keep lobbying their party and their elected representatives to change their pro-abortion views and protect the unborn. Catholics can support “pro-choice” candidates if they support them despite — not because of — their “pro-choice” views. But they also need a compelling proportionate reason to justify it.
  1. What is a “proportionate” reason when it comes to the abortion issue?It’s the kind of reason we will be able to explain, with a clean heart, to the victims of abortion when we meet them face to face in the next life — which we most certainly will. If we’re confident that these victims will accept our motives as something more than an alibi, then we can proceed.
Archbishop Chaput
 
Nice cut n paste BUT you can not vote for him if there is no viable pro-lifternative.Proportionality comes into play only when both candates are equal to in there stance on abortion. We have previously posted comments from Cardinal Burke, Pope Benedict and , Archbishop Chaput ,among others, pointing this out. In fact the what is you cut and pasted supports this when taken in context of the entire voting guide and in the context of the totality of the teachings of the church on abortion

It is strange that you claim to be pro-life but have no problem empowering those who have vowed to keep abortion legal.
Well, if facts won’t convince you, I don’t know what will. The fact is FCFC doesn’t take the position you do.

I realize you don’t know me, but it would be grossly inaccurate to say that I have no problem empowering those who have vowed to keep abortion legal. Anybody who knows me knows that.
 
Well, if facts won’t convince you, I don’t know what will. The fact is FCFC doesn’t take the position you do.

I realize you don’t know me, but it would be grossly inaccurate to say that I have no problem empowering those who have vowed to keep abortion legal. Anybody who knows me knows that.
I have posted Vatican documents, documents from the US Council Catholic bishops as well as direct quotes from archbishops, Cardinals, and two different popes clearly stating the teachings of the church on this issue. You cut and pasted an excerpt from the US Council of Catholic bishops voting guide, gave your personal interpretation of what it meant and claimed that settled the issue.

You’re right =I don’t know you I only know but what you post… An you are misleading other Catholics into believing they can safely vote for pro-abortion candidates and not be rejecting the teachings of the church . It is bad enough when you mislead yourself-even worse when you try to mislead other Catholics
 
Such a party would be illegal to be elected to office in the United States. “Separation of Church and State” is ordered in the 1st Amendment. So you can’t mention anything Christian about your party or about your policies. You just have to act in accordance with them, without “because it’s the Catholic thing to do” being the reason you give.
No, the only thing that would be illegal would be if we tried to force others to participate in our religion, or used public resources to further it. On the other hand, I can see somebody arguing that we shouldn’t have access to state maintained ballots.

Maybe the thing to do is form a voting bloc? We would only vote for candidates that support the entirety of the Church’s social doctrine. There’s a lot of Catholics in the USA. Can you imagine what would happen if we got a significant number to participate?
 
I have posted Vatican documents, documents from the US Council Catholic bishops as well as direct quotes from archbishops, Cardinals, and two different popes clearly stating the teachings of the church on this issue. You cut and pasted an excerpt from the US Council of Catholic bishops voting guide, gave your personal interpretation of what it meant and claimed that settled the issue.

You’re right =I don’t know you I only know but what you post… An you are misleading other Catholics into believing they can safely vote for pro-abortion candidates and not be rejecting the teachings of the church . It is bad enough when you mislead yourself-even worse when you try to mislead other Catholics
You are unable to make a cogent or factual argument for your position, so you start slinging mud and saying that I am misleading people. You have not posted anything in FCFC that contradicts anything that I have said, and if you have looked at it you know that it supports what I have been saying. Moreover, you have failed to explain how a document that takes the single issue position, yet talks about the gravity of other issues as FCFC does would even be cogent. On the contrary, it is you who are trying to spiritually intimidate Catholics into voting for candidates of your choosing.
 
The other night on the internet I spoke to someone who is a seminarian, he said “is disappointed at some of the people he follows on here; the Republican Party isn’t the “Catholic Party”, and voting Democrat is okay”

I replied “well its not catholic to vote for any candidate who supports abortion, stem cell research or homosexual marriage”

they went on to say

“Republicans aren’t very pro-life themselves. Supporting an unjust war, the death penalty, embryonic stem cell research. GoBama”

and “We aren’t single issue voters. We need to participate in the future of our country while preserving Catholic Social Teaching”

and

“The dignity [of human life] goes beyond abortion. Also defending others from unjust war, the death penalty, pro-healthcre.”

I said that voting for a pro abortion candidate no matter what is wrong because in a way you are supporting them in everything that they are doing by voting them into office.

He replied with "No, I am not. Is the bus driver who drives the girl to the street where the abortion clinic is guilty? "

Am I wrong with what I was saying? Was he going along with church teaching in what he was saying? I am sort of thinking about this because he is learning to be a priest and I thought he would know better than I do about voting. He is correct?
In addition, you can point out that before he while he was the Cardinal Ratzinger, Pope Benedict XVI stated that Catholics can have a legitimate diversity of opinion on the death penalty (or words to that effect), so some of the issues that your seminarian friend are bringing up are simply not on the same level as abortion.

My apologies if someone already posted this.
 
You are unable to make a cogent or factual argument for your position, so you start slinging mud and saying that I am misleading people. You have not posted anything in FCFC that contradicts anything that I have said, and if you have looked at it you know that it supports what I have been saying. Moreover, you have failed to explain how a document that takes the single issue position, yet talks about the gravity of other issues as FCFC does would even be cogent. On the contrary, it is you who are trying to spiritually intimidate Catholics into voting for candidates of your choosing.
I explianed it, teo Popes explained it, the cardinal explained it, the archbishop explained it, the USCCB explained it-it didnt fit your politics so you ignored it.
 
But if the bishops meant to say that when there are two candidates, one pro-life and the other pro-abortion, you must vote for the pro-life candidate, they would have simply said that. They didn’t.
How explicit do they need to be? Did this document recieve the 2/3rd vote?

Burke, who is the prefect of the Supreme Tribunal of the Apostolic Signatura, the Church’s “Supreme Court” gave an interview to Thomas McKenna, President of Catholic Action for Faith and Family.

“As a bishop it’s my obligation in fact, to urge the faithful to carry out their civic duty in accord with their Catholic faith,” Burke said.

“You can never vote for someone who favors absolutely the right to choice of a woman to destroy a human life in her womb or the right to a procured abortion,” he added plainly.

He said his words are not meant as a criticism of how people vote, but they are “simply announcing the truth, helping people to discriminate right from wrong in terms of their own activities.”

In the 25-minute interview, Burke reminded Catholics they are **bound in conscience **to vote for political candidates who oppose aborting babies, embryonic stem cell experiments, and euthanasia.

“Millions of Catholics have no idea it’s **a sin to vote for candidates **who favor these grave evils, which attack the very foundations of society,” he told LifeNews.com. “This matter-of-fact, pointed interview granted to me by Archbishop Raymond Burke in Rome last week makes it very clear what the responsibility of every American Catholic will be next Tuesday.” lifenews.com/2010/10/27/nat-6799/
What are other grave moral concerns? “Racism and other unjust discrimination, the use of the death penalty, resorting to unjust war, the use of torture, war crimes, the failure to respond to those who are suffering from hunger or a lack of health care, or an unjust immigration policy are all serious moral issues that challenge our consciences and require us to act. These are not optional concerns which can be dismissed.” (FCFC, sec. 29.)
Which US politician/party supports racism?

Pope JPII notes that all these things are false and illusory if the “right to life, the most basic and fundamental right and the condition for all other personal rights, is not defended with maximum determination.”
If these bishops are directing the Catholics in their dioceses to vote in this manner, then that is exactly what those Catholics should do. I would never suggest to any Catholic that he disobey the directive of his own bishop.
Would these Bishops then be contradicting Faithful Citizenship?
A pro-abortion candidate, on the other hand, may actually be able to get certain things done,
Like less pro life people on the supreme court?
****such as ending our involvement with torture, or getting health coverage for those unable to access it.
Abortion tortures a baby
Abortion doesn’t give babies health care, it kills them.
"It must be noted also that a well-formed Christian does not permit one to vote for a political program or an individual law which contradicts the fundamental contents of faith and morals.
And the most basic of all human rights, all others illusionary without it, is the right to life. Vatican II said abortion was an abominable crime and Pope John Paul II spoke inffalibly on abortion. Divine Law, no less, says “thou shalt not kill.”
and thus it is incoherent to isolate some particular element to the detriment of the whole of Catholic doctrine.
1.5 million Americans are aborted each year. Maybe once we stop the holacaust, then we can look at other issues. When Hitler was gasing people did anyone say “we’ll yes that’s bad but what about health care, and poverty and…”?

Bishop Vasa: “Abortion needs to be in our country a defining issue and we ought not be afraid to make it a defining issue because when we do that we will have an end of abortion in this country.”
 
I explianed it, teo Popes explained it, the cardinal explained it, the archbishop explained it, the USCCB explained it-it didnt fit your politics so you ignored it.
Yeah, okay.

Anybody who wants to read Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship put out by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops in order to decide for themselves may read it on their website.
 
Yeah, okay.

Anybody who wants to read Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship put out by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops in order to decide for themselves may read it on their website.
They don’t have to decidfe for themselves That is why we have a Church -to instruct us the fact the Church teaching interferes with your politics is irelevant
 
They don’t have to decidfe for themselves That is why we have a Church -to instruct us the fact the Church teaching interferes with your politics is irelevant
Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship is put out by the bishops. People can read it for themselves to see if you are accurately representing what the Church’s position is on Catholic voting. I can understand why you wouldn’t want them to do that.
 
In my state (Massachusetts), Independents can vote in any primary, but Republicans can’t vote in Democratic primaries and vice-versa.
Heavens to Betsy, I wish California had open primaries.

Are we sure that there could not be a caucus independent of either party which proclaimed pro-Humanae Vitae, pro-Rerum Novarum, &c. political values?

Moreover, the First Amendment doesn’t have to be called the Catholic Party, but surely to claim antecedence from these encyclicals would be enough for people to get the hint? And, by the way the party system is set up, primaries don’t have to determine the nominee — that’s a free choice the parties made back in the '70s, if I remember correctly — so the party could ensure a solidly Catholic nominee each year. There’s nothing preventing a candidate from being solidly religious or speaking to congregations of religious or organizing the laity to form his political base, only from the government at any level establishing religion. As long as party membership is freely offered or declined, there’s really nothing stopping the American Christian Democrats, is there?
 
Maybe we should start a Catholic party that follows all of the teachings of the Church. Isn’t that how the Christian Democrats in Europe got started?
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There is merit to your idea along these lines,however,as someone already suggested the issue of church/state thing complicates this.Also if you use the word “Catholic” then you would need the Bishops approval and before long THEY would want to control this party–Bishops have enough on their plate and not all have a good appetite or a good political mind!!

But if you cannot reform a party from within then;there is no reason why a new party could not be started by a group of catholic lay people; with its’ social moral principles as the basis.It could have a secular name like The Traditional Republican Party or The Reformed Democratic Party.!!

The person on this Utube link belongs to such an off shoot from a major party:he belongs to the Democratic Labour Party (DLP)–the parent Party is called The Australian Labour Party(ALP).Without going into to much history here,basically this party supported the Irish Catholic workers and generally the underclass of society.In the early fifties,the communists,with the support of the unions which they infiltrated–kicked out all the Catholic leaders from the Party–because they opposed the reds–hence The DLP.

Under the great leadership of Archbishop Mannix-a lay catholic movement was started by a young lawyer called Bob Santamaria in Melbourne.This movement with the support of this great Irish saintly man,was really a catholic action group; but set up as a secular organization away from the clutches of the Australian Bishops–this brought a bitter division amongst some catholics who still were “loyal” to a party;even though it’s leaders were communists!!

This new group never were politically a major party but it’s influence kept the Communist controlled Labour Party(ALP) out of power;until recent times–as the catholic faith of lay people became weaker.

This battle of ideas is what is occuring now in the United States,I would liken your leaders like Rev.Bourke,Chaput,Dolan etc–to what Archbishop Mannix stood for.The weaker Bishops in your country(unfortunatly the majority) are like some of the Australian Bishops who still supported the Australian Labour Party even though they were run by “reds”!!Substitute “abortion supporters” instead of communists and you have the present picture here in Australia and I suspect America?

Is there anyone in the United States with the vision of a Bob Santamaria(worth googling up the name-his father was an Italian migrant-a worker!!)Palin perhaps??
 
How explicit do they need to be? Did this document recieve the 2/3rd vote? .
Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship is put out by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. I don’t know what the vote breakdown was. And if they wanted to tell us that we are to vote for the candidate who takes the pro-life position regarding abortion regardless of the other issues involved, then they would have said something like that. Instead they told us that we may vote for the other candidate if there are grave reasons for doing so (as opposed to, say, lining our pockets reasons for doing so). But we are not to vote for a pro-abortion candidate because he is pro-abortion. It’s the same rule for all morally grave issues.
Burke, who is the prefect of the Supreme Tribunal of the Apostolic Signatura, the Church’s “Supreme Court” gave an interview to Thomas McKenna, President of Catholic Action for Faith and Family.

“As a bishop it’s my obligation in fact, to urge the faithful to carry out their civic duty in accord with their Catholic faith,” Burke said.

“You can never vote for someone who favors absolutely the right to choice of a woman to destroy a human life in her womb or the right to a procured abortion,” he added plainly.

He said his words are not meant as a criticism of how people vote, but they are “simply announcing the truth, helping people to discriminate right from wrong in terms of their own activities.”

In the 25-minute interview, Burke reminded Catholics they are **bound in conscience **to vote for political candidates who oppose aborting babies, embryonic stem cell experiments, and euthanasia.

“Millions of Catholics have no idea it’s **a sin to vote for candidates **who favor these grave evils, which attack the very foundations of society,” he told LifeNews.com. “This matter-of-fact, pointed interview granted to me by Archbishop Raymond Burke in Rome last week makes it very clear what the responsibility of every American Catholic will be next Tuesday.” lifenews.com/2010/10/27/nat-6799/ .
I followed your link, and found an article about an interview with Archbishop Burke, with some quotes. I’d like to see the whole interview. If Archbishop Burke now has authority to speak for the whole Church, other than just heading up the Church’s Supreme Court, and if the article is giving a correct rendition of what he was saying, then we have new marching orders, because hitherto what we have been told is that we cannot vote for a pro-abortion candidate because he is pro-abortion, clearly leaving room to vote for him if there are grave reasons for doing so.
Which US politician/party supports racism?
Years ago it was the Democrats. Now all the old dixiecrats have become Republicans along with the neo-Wilsonians, better know as neoconservatives.
Of course, no party is going to say that it’s in favor of racism, even if it is. Still, I don’t think either party is, strictly speaking, in favor of racism. As to the others, death penalty, resorting to unjust war, the use of torture, war crimes, the failure to respond to those who are suffering from hunger or lack of health care, or an unjust immigration policy, I would have to say that it is the Republicans that nowadays champion those causes, although they wouldn’t put it in those terms. You may disagree with me, and that’s okay because the purpose of the bishops’ statement is to get Catholic voters to weigh these things for themselves.
Pope JPII notes that all these things are false and illusory if the “right to life, the most basic and fundamental right and the condition for all other personal rights, is not defended with maximum determination.”
I’m not sure what “things” he’s referring to here, but there is no doubt that abortion is a ghastly and horrible crime against God and humanity. But being pro-life means more than being against abortion. If someone is against abortion, but in favor of the unjust war against Iraq, that person is only selectively pro-life (and yes, the Pope spoke decisively on the immorality of the US invasion of Iraq). Someone who says he is against abortion except in cases of rape, incest, or to preserve the life or health of the mother is only selectively pro-life.
Would these Bishops then be contradicting Faithful Citizenship?
Well, the way they were quoted they would be, but I haven’t read the entire statement. [continued]
 
Like less pro life people on the supreme court?
Like greater access to health-care for the poor and ending the policy of torture of foreign combatants to cite two examples.

Don’t forget that Earl Warren was appointed by Eisenhower. A President can’t control what his Supreme Court appointee does once the appointment is confirmed. Even a conservative justice may decide that Roe v. Wade is entitled to deference because it is precedent. And even if Roe v. Wade is overturned, that doesn’t mean abortion will become illegal. It may become illegal in South Dakota, but anyone who wants an abortion in that state will simply pack up the van and drive to Oregon or California. I’ve said elsewhere that the overturning of Roe v. Wade will cause a boom in the California abortion business. And let’s not forget about the fact that there’s a lot of folks that don’t respect the law, and will commit abortions anyway. The goal isn’t simply to make abortions illegal but to stop them. That’s why Democrats for Life support such things as the Pregnant Women Support Act.
Abortion tortures a baby

Abortion doesn’t give babies health care, it kills them.
Right on both counts. Abortion must end.
And the most basic of all human rights, all others illusionary without it, is the right to life. Vatican II said abortion was an abominable crime and Pope John Paul II spoke inffalibly on abortion. Divine Law, no less, says “thou shalt not kill.”
Yes people should stop killing people.
1.5 million Americans are aborted each year. Maybe once we stop the holacaust, then we can look at other issues. When Hitler was gasing people did anyone say “we’ll yes that’s bad but what about health care, and poverty and…”?

Bishop Vasa: “Abortion needs to be in our country a defining issue and we ought not be afraid to make it a defining issue because when we do that we will have an end of abortion in this country.”
Well, I don’t think anyone said that it doesn’t bother them if Hitler conquers Europe so long as he stops gassing people.

Abortion should be a defining issue. But I disagree that we should simply ignore all other human atrocities until we put an end to abortion. Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship cautions against Catholics being one-issue voters. Keep in mind, I am not telling you how you or anyone else should vote in order to be in compliance with Catholic teaching. You should vote according to your conscience, not mine. And your conscience should be informed by Catholic teaching. What I object to is when someone has weighed the issues and reached a conclusion they proceed to question the sincerity of Catholics who reach different conclusions. It divides Catholics along political lines, and it’s wrong. Moreover, they have no Church mandate for behaving this way.
 
youtube.com/

There is merit to your idea along these lines,however,as someone already suggested the issue of church/state thing complicates this.Also if you use the word “Catholic” then you would need the Bishops approval and before long THEY would want to control this party–Bishops have enough on their plate and not all have a good appetite or a good political mind!!

But if you cannot reform a party from within then;there is no reason why a new party could not be started by a group of catholic lay people; with its’ social moral principles as the basis.It could have a secular name like The Traditional Republican Party or The Reformed Democratic Party.!!

The person on this Utube link belongs to such an off shoot from a major party:he belongs to the Democratic Labour Party (DLP)–the parent Party is called The Australian Labour Party(ALP).Without going into to much history here,basically this party supported the Irish Catholic workers and generally the underclass of society.In the early fifties,the communists,with the support of the unions which they infiltrated–kicked out all the Catholic leaders from the Party–because they opposed the reds–hence The DLP.

Under the great leadership of Archbishop Mannix-a lay catholic movement was started by a young lawyer called Bob Santamaria in Melbourne.This movement with the support of this great Irish saintly man,was really a catholic action group; but set up as a secular organization away from the clutches of the Australian Bishops–this brought a bitter division amongst some catholics who still were “loyal” to a party;even though it’s leaders were communists!!

This new group never were politically a major party but it’s influence kept the Communist controlled Labour Party(ALP) out of power;until recent times–as the catholic faith of lay people became weaker.

This battle of ideas is what is occuring now in the United States,I would liken your leaders like Rev.Bourke,Chaput,Dolan etc–to what Archbishop Mannix stood for.The weaker Bishops in your country(unfortunatly the majority) are like some of the Australian Bishops who still supported the Australian Labour Party even though they were run by “reds”!!Substitute “abortion supporters” instead of communists and you have the present picture here in Australia and I suspect America?

Is there anyone in the United States with the vision of a Bob Santamaria(worth googling up the name-his father was an Italian migrant-a worker!!)Palin perhaps??
What might be a good idea is a voting bloc. Anyone becoming a member would agree to vote with the entire organization. The bishops wouldn’;t run it, but we would take a position on a number of issues based on Church teaching. In order to get our votes, a politician would have to support our position on each issue. If none of them do that, then nobody would get our votes. There’s a lot of Catholics in the USA. This could be something that would unite both conservative and liberal Catholics, and could be a formidable way of making Catholic social teaching public policy.
 
cam.org.au/stateelection

Here is a link that the Catholic Bishops of Victoria issued to every parish within the State.It is two years too late–as Victoria has the worst Abortion Bill in the Western World.

I suspect that the USA will catch up sooner or later!!!

In one way I suspect that it will not count for much as here only twelve percent of Adult Catholics got to Mass anyway!!
Thanks for the link and reference! I’m in the U.S., so it’s nice to hear (name removed by moderator)ut from “down under” (hope that’s ok!). As I said, your bishops are teaching on issues, as they should, not specific candidates. Best wishes.
 
youtube.com/

History has a way of teaching lessons if we wish to learn from it.From what I can gather Americans are passionately either for the Republic or the Democratic Party, with a lot of apathy in between.
I’m in the U.S., my observation is that there is not a lot of apathy in between the two major parties, but rather a lot of sincerely concerned folks who are dissatisfied with what the two major parties have done. The so-called “Tea Party” groups are clearly not apathetic (and while likely mostly Republican, are equally objecting to what both parties have done).
 
Such a party would be illegal to be elected to office in the United States. “Separation of Church and State” is ordered in the 1st Amendment. So you can’t mention anything Christian about your party or about your policies. You just have to act in accordance with them, without “because it’s the Catholic thing to do” being the reason you give.
No, it wouldn’t be illegal.

If you disagree, please share where U.S. law would say such a party is illegal?

Thanks.
 
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