Voting for Pro Abortion candidates

[Vince1022]

How explicit do they need to be? Did this document recieve the 2/3rd vote?

Burke, who is the prefect of the Supreme Tribunal of the Apostolic Signatura, the Church’s “Supreme Court” gave an interview to Thomas McKenna, President of Catholic Action for Faith and Family.

“As a bishop it’s my obligation in fact, to urge the faithful to carry out their civic duty in accord with their Catholic faith,” Burke said.

“You can never vote for someone who favors absolutely the right to choice of a woman to destroy a human life in her womb or the right to a procured abortion,” he added plainly.

He said his words are not meant as a criticism of how people vote, but they are “simply announcing the truth, helping people to discriminate right from wrong in terms of their own activities.”

In the 25-minute interview, Burke reminded Catholics they are **bound in conscience **to vote for political candidates who oppose aborting babies, embryonic stem cell experiments, and euthanasia.

“Millions of Catholics have no idea it’s **a sin to vote for candidates **who favor these grave evils, which attack the very foundations of society,” he told LifeNews.com. “This matter-of-fact, pointed interview granted to me by Archbishop Raymond Burke in Rome last week makes it very clear what the responsibility of every American Catholic will be next Tuesday.” lifenews.com/2010/10/27/nat-6799/

Which US politician/party supports racism?

Pope JPII notes that all these things are false and illusory if the “right to life, the most basic and fundamental right and the condition for all other personal rights, is not defended with maximum determination.”

Would these Bishops then be contradicting Faithful Citizenship?

Like less pro life people on the supreme court?

Abortion tortures a baby
Abortion doesn’t give babies health care, it kills them.

And the most basic of all human rights, all others illusionary without it, is the right to life. Vatican II said abortion was an abominable crime and Pope John Paul II spoke inffalibly on abortion. Divine Law, no less, says “thou shalt not kill.”

1.5 million Americans are aborted each year. Maybe once we stop the holacaust, then we can look at other issues. When Hitler was gasing people did anyone say “we’ll yes that’s bad but what about health care, and poverty and…”?

Bishop Vasa: “Abortion needs to be in our country a defining issue and we ought not be afraid to make it a defining issue because when we do that we will have an end of abortion in this country.”

Archbishop Burke’s opinions are not binding Catholic teaching.

 

[Vince1022]

They don’t have to decidfe for themselves

Yes, they do. All Catholics, as taught by the Catholic Church, have the responsibility to form their conscience in accord with Catholic teachings.

 

[Gift_from_God]

I would never support someone who supports murder.

Then again, I live in Canada, where politicians are too scared to even bring up the issue so…yeah, we got it bad

 

[Vince1022]

I would never support someone who supports murder.

Then again, I live in Canada, where politicians are too scared to even bring up the issue so…yeah, we got it bad

Good luck finding a politician who is 100% against abortion and the death penalty! I wish we had some here in the U.S.!

 

[elts1956]

The five non-negotiables were not promulgated by any official Church body. The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops has a document entitled Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship that is up at their website. Even that document probably doesn’t rise to the level of magisterial, but since it is put out by the USCCB, it is probably a little more authoritative than the five non-negotiables. Here’s the link:

/www.usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/FCStatement.pdf

Please, please do not take this document as a clear guide to forming your conscience. No where in the whole document is there clarity regarding the hierarchy of good and evil that a Catholic can take verbatim unless they have had direction from such clergy as someone like Cardinal designate Burke. This document was written by a committee in which there were conservative Bishops as well as Liberal. Some conservative Bishops say it is a compromise. In other words conservative bishops were out shouted by the liberals. This document is ambiguous for those Catholics not having solid theological instruction and very very unclear.

To get a clearer picture of what should have been said and wasn’t in the document Forming Conscience, go to the USCCB site and read their instructions called “Living the Gospel of Life” which is based on Pope John Paul II’s encyclical Evangelium Vitae.

 

[elts1956]

The five non-negotiables were not promulgated by any official Church body. The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops has a document entitled Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship that is up at their website. Even that document probably doesn’t rise to the level of magisterial, but since it is put out by the USCCB, it is probably a little more authoritative than the five non-negotiables. Here’s the link:

/www.usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/FCStatement.pdf

Archbishop Burke’s opinions are not binding Catholic teaching.

Especially when wants to stubbornly resist the TRUTH Archbishop Burke is stating. It is natural moral law, not an opinion.

 

[elts1956]

The five non-negotiables were not promulgated by any official Church body. The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops has a document entitled Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship that is up at their website. Even that document probably doesn’t rise to the level of magisterial, but since it is put out by the USCCB, it is probably a little more authoritative than the five non-negotiables. Here’s the link:

/www.usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/FCStatement.pdf

The five non negotiables were listed as Intrinsic Evils. Intrinsic evils can in no instance be supported as they have no natural end to good. These five non-negotiables were the ones on the front burner during the last POTUS elections. There are more than these five, but these are the ones which lie at the base of all other Intrinsic evil. Read Evangelium Vitae. They are listed as Intrinsic Evil

 

[Vince1022]

Especially when wants to stubbornly resist the TRUTH Archbishop Burke is stating. It is natural moral law, not an opinion.

Where does Archbishop Burke claim this is a natural moral law? Thanks.

Anyway, back to my original question, are you claiming that Archbishop Burke’s thoughts are binding on all Catholics? Why? Where does the Catholic Church teach that? Again, thanks.

 

[elts1956]

Where does Archbishop Burke claim this is a natural moral law? Thanks.

Anyway, back to my original question, are you claiming that Archbishop Burke’s thoughts are binding on all Catholics? Why? Where does the Catholic Church teach that? Again, thanks.

It should be understood by all practicing Catholics that abortion is against the natural law, just as all killing is morally wrong. There are exceptions to this as in instances of a Just War which is an issue of prudential judgement wherein we as individuals can have “opinions”, voice support, or not, because all War cannot be said to be Intrinsically evil. Some wars, such as WWII were fought to spread justice throughout Europe and the Pacific and in defense of our country.

Abortion is an Instrinsic Evil which never has a just nor moral end. The Church teaches this. Check the Catholic Catechism. Archbishop Burke is expressng a truth which some of our more liberal Bishops avoid.

Hope this helps.

 

[Vince1022]

It should be understood by all practicing Catholics that abortion is against the natural law, just as all killing is morally wrong.

Of course. I was asking about your reference to Burke.

Abortion is an Instrinsic Evil which never has a just nor moral end.

Again, of course. That does nothing to clarify an individual’s choice regrading voting.

 

[elts1956]

Where does Archbishop Burke claim this is a natural moral law? Thanks.

Anyway, back to my original question, are you claiming that Archbishop Burke’s thoughts are binding on all Catholics? Why? Where does the Catholic Church teach that? Again, thanks.

Of course. I was asking about your reference to Burke.

Again, of course. That does nothing to clarify an individual’s choice regrading voting.

Please give me the post number as I don’t know exactly what you are asking.

As far as a person’s individual choice when voting, isn’t there something about Jesus saying, do good, avoid evil. Abortion is about as evil as it gets. What good, other than opposing abortion, can override the evil of abortion.

 

[JackQ]

Please, please do not take this document as a clear guide to forming your conscience. No where in the whole document is there clarity regarding the hierarchy of good and evil that a Catholic can take verbatim unless they have had direction from such clergy as someone like Cardinal designate Burke. This document was written by a committee in which there were conservative Bishops as well as Liberal. Some conservative Bishops say it is a compromise. In other words conservative bishops were out shouted by the liberals. This document is ambiguous for those Catholics not having solid theological instruction and very very unclear.

To get a clearer picture of what should have been said and wasn’t in the document Forming Conscience, go to the USCCB site and read their instructions called “Living the Gospel of Life” which is based on Pope John Paul II’s encyclical Evangelium Vitae.

What you’re saying is that the bishops gave us an inadequate guide on forming our consciences for voting. The document doesn’t seem that unclear to me, unless you’re looking for direct marching orders on who to vote for, which the bishops specifically declined to give. Of course, that doesn’t stop certain laypeople from anointing themselves for the task with an air of magisterial authority.

Nobody here is saying that abortion should be legal. But let’s not kid ourselves into thinking that we’re off the hook for other evils as long as we’re against abortion. You don’t get to close your eyes to things such as unjust war, which kills people as well, just because you’re against abortion. John Paul II was against the U.S. invasion of Iraq, and if you’re in for the John Paul penny, you’re in for the John Paul pound.

Now, I’ve been trying to make the point that Catholic social doctrine is a seamless garment. But this creates a problem for those in the United States who want to embrace all of Catholic teaching, since the Republicans seem to support some aspects of Catholic social doctrine and the Democrats seem to support others. I say “seem” because what they’re really about is maximizing the allocation of resources to their more powerful donors, but I digress. This causes a split in the Catholic vote, and I think a more mature approach to this situation is needed than the AM radio talk show method of simply accusing others of insincerity or ignorance. Our society is becoming increasingly polarized between the political left and the political right, but it would be tragic for Catholics to split along the same lines. What we need is a specifically Catholic method of addressing political issues, and we need to stick together if we hope to see any social change in a Catholic direction, including in the area of abortion. Otherwise, we confront such spectacles as Catholics rejoicing over the defeat of pro-life Democrats.

What I propose is the formation of a nation-wide Catholic voting bloc. Every Catholic who joins the bloc would agree to vote in concert with the bloc. If a politician agrees with everything the Church teaches on social issues, we would vote for him or her. If he or she doesn’t agree with everything the Church teaches on social issues, we wouldn’t vote for him or her. After the candidate took office, if he or she voted for any bill that was opposed by the USCCB, he or she would lose our vote permanently; if he or she voted against any bill that was supported by the USCCB, the same thing would happen. The bloc would operate on the state level in the same way in relation to the state bishop’s conferences.

There are a lot of Catholics in the United States. We could get a lot done if we cooperated. But will we cooperate? Pray that we do.

 

[JackQ]

Especially when wants to stubbornly resist the TRUTH Archbishop Burke is stating. It is natural moral law, not an opinion.

Nobody is saying that abortion isn’t a sin. Nobody is saying that abortion isn’t a mortal sin. Nobody is saying that abortion doesn’t violate natural law. The question is how Catholics should weigh issues when voting.

 

[JackQ]

Please give me the post number as I don’t know exactly what you are asking.

As far as a person’s individual choice when voting, isn’t there something about Jesus saying, do good, avoid evil. Abortion is about as evil as it gets. What good, other than opposing abortion, can override the evil of abortion.

If your child was killed in a bombing raid in Iraq, you might have an answer for your question.

 

[elts1956]

Nobody is saying that abortion isn’t a sin. Nobody is saying that abortion isn’t a mortal sin. Nobody is saying that abortion doesn’t violate natural law. The question is how Catholics should weigh issues when voting.

When voting, faithful Catholics, need to weigh issues according to the hierarchy of evils. Abortion is at the apex. In our affluent society we have forgotten the word and action of “sacrifice”. In the last POTUS election over 54% of US Caholics chose the issue of economy over the lives of unborn children. The “me” society and lack of Faith in God (remember the smallest sparrow) was very apparent. Worrying about having food on the table, or our next Lexus car is not the stuff of which Saints are developed.

I wonder if the folks who suffered through the first great depression would have voted for a party that promised the deaths of millions of innocents but ignoring the care and safety of their own souls, placing their HOPE in a man rather than God.

I don’t think so. They had more grit and determination than the 56% bilked catholics who voted the wrong path.
This is the result of our watered down Catholicism we have been given for the past fifty years.

 

[elts1956]

Nobody is saying that abortion isn’t a sin. Nobody is saying that abortion isn’t a mortal sin. Nobody is saying that abortion doesn’t violate natural law. The question is how Catholics should weigh issues when voting.

If your child was killed in a bombing raid in Iraq, you might have an answer for your question.

Abortion still tops this. Abortion is the DIRECT KILLING of an innocent child. The child killed in a bombing raid, though no less precious, is unfortunately an indirect killing. The pain is great because this child has been held and loved. The unborn can never know what it is to be held and loved unless they are allowed to live.

 

[Vince1022]

It should be understood by all practicing Catholics that abortion is against the natural law, just as all killing is morally wrong. There are exceptions to this as in instances of a Just War which is an issue of prudential judgement wherein we as individuals can have “opinions”, voice support, or not, because all War cannot be said to be Intrinsically evil. Some wars, such as WWII were fought to spread justice throughout Europe and the Pacific and in defense of our country.

Abortion is an Instrinsic Evil which never has a just nor moral end. The Church teaches this. Check the Catholic Catechism. Archbishop Burke is expressng a truth which some of our more liberal Bishops avoid.

Hope this helps.

No, I was asking for a reference made to some teaching of Burke, so I was looking for a source.

Yes, of course the Catholic Church considers abortion an intrinsically evil act. That was never under question in this thread, was it?

Still, the point is about voting. And the Church does not teach that one absolutely cannot vote for a candidate whose position on abortion diverges from the Church’s teaching.

 

[The_Word]

The other night on the internet I spoke to someone who is a seminarian, he said “is disappointed at some of the people he follows on here; the Republican Party isn’t the “Catholic Party”, and voting Democrat is okay”

I replied “well its not catholic to vote for any candidate who supports abortion, stem cell research or homosexual marriage”

they went on to say

“Republicans aren’t very pro-life themselves. Supporting an unjust war, the death penalty, embryonic stem cell research. GoBama”

and “We aren’t single issue voters. We need to participate in the future of our country while preserving Catholic Social Teaching”

and

“The dignity [of human life] goes beyond abortion. Also defending others from unjust war, the death penalty, pro-healthcre.”

I said that voting for a pro abortion candidate no matter what is wrong because in a way you are supporting them in everything that they are doing by voting them into office.

He replied with "No, I am not. Is the bus driver who drives the girl to the street where the abortion clinic is guilty? "

Am I wrong with what I was saying? Was he going along with church teaching in what he was saying? I am sort of thinking about this because he is learning to be a priest and I thought he would know better than I do about voting. He is correct?

Jesus and the saints weren’t involved in politics for these reasons:

1. They were too busy preaching the gospel and looking for the chosen ones who belong to the Word.

2,.All the politicians are sinners who are in politics for popularity and other selfish acts.

1. They know that God is in control of every tiny detail so they don’t have to fear.
2. They know that this earth will be destroyed and end all this sinfulness.
3. It is impossible to elect a sinner to do a selfish act for a group of others who support him unless you’re group is very wealthy. If the citizens would have known he was going to drag us into war, he wouldn’t have been elected and his small group of rich people wouldn’t have made billions of dollars in Iraq.

 

[Ron_Conte]

The Church teaches that any knowingly chosen act is moral if all three fonts of morality are good, and that any knowingly chosen act is immoral if one or more of the three fonts of morality are bad. This teaching is found in the CCC, the Compendium, the USCCB Catechism, Veritatis Splendor, and other sources.

The three fonts of morality:

1. intention
2. moral object
3. circumstances

There is no separate set of fonts or criteria for morality on certain subjects, such as voting. The act of voting for a candidate or referendum or law is moral if all three fonts are good, and is immoral if any one or more fonts are bad.

Since voting for a person is not intrinsically evil (i.e. the moral object is not evil), the morality of the vote then depends on the other two fonts: intention and circumstances. With a good intention, in some circumstances, a Catholic might vote for a pro-abortion candidate.

 

[wjp984]

Could not one have made all the same argument to vote for Hitler and the Nazi party in Germany’s time of economic collapse that so many people are making today in favor of pro abortion candidates. So what if a few million people are killed, the rest will starve to death if not for Hitler’s economic policies. So what if a few million babies are killed, there will be more equality and justice for the survivors.

I personally don’t even think the Democrats are better for the economy or social issues irregardless of the abortion issue but for those that do, I think they need to put this reality in its correct perspective.