Voucher System & Catholic Schools

[Brendan]

If you are comfortable with public money going to religous schools, you need to recognize that the money would go to *all *religious schools, not just Catholic, or even Christian, schools. .

Canada has state funded Catholic schools.

What each taxpayer does is to select which school system their taxes will go.

(which isn’t to say they are immune from all the government intrusion into how the Catholics schools teach religion)

 

[Michaeljc4]

I’m really not against the idea in principle; the devil, however, is in the details. The Netherlands have tax payer funded religious schools, and the sky hasn’t fallen in over there. Voucher propents just need to understand that their tax dollars most likely will be used to support schools that are non-Christian, or for the schools of denominations other than their own.

Personally I’d love to teach in a Catholic school. My wife did for a year (after being a public school teacher for four years) and she still refers to it as “teaching paradise.” Unfortunately, she had to take a $20K pay-cut when she did it. I just can’t afford to work at a Catholic school.

 

[melensdad]

As a parent of a disabled child that was kicked out of a Catholic school for behaviors she need the support of an aide for. Neither the school, the diocese or us had the funds to pay an aide. . .
I support the concept of vouchers, but will not support a plan that I am not confident makes vouchers truly available to ALL students.

We have a friend in the church who has two children who need classroom aids. These two kids are in the public school system while their oldest in the the Catholic school.

One thing that I think the voucher system can do is allow one school in a district to specialize in added care giving to students who need it. The reality is no voucher system that is flat rate based will ever give enough per student to pay for aids, but a voucher system will allow the administration to provide greater care at a few schools rather than bare-minimum care at all schools.

I do not think there will ever be a voucher system that will meet YOUR criteria (if I understand you correctly) but there could well be a benefit to you/your child under a voucher system if one of the schools decided to try to gather as many disabled children from the district as possible and then designed a program around special needs. A voucher system clearly would allow for that, and that is not a situation that exists in most traditional school districts.
"Michaeljc4:

May I ask, Melensdad, what school district that is, and where?

I’d prefer not to give the school district, but is in northwest Indiana (the county is probably the most “liberal” in the state).

We homeschool. That isn’t one of the options

Sorry, I didn’t think of that one. However, you could still respond to the survey (just pretend you have NO children and use one of those options) because while you do have children, you have no children in the school system.

 

[trentonzero]

Must be a regional thing. Around here, most teachers FIGHT for the public school jobs. Money is much better, benefits too. Almost all the teacher ed students I went to school with said “Catholic school as a last resort!” I found that sad. I wouldn’t mind teaching at a Catholic school at all. It’d be nice. But I have a husband to help “bring home the bacon”. If I was supporting a family on my own, or a single parent, I don’t think I’d be able to.

Could be. We were in Texas at the time.

Things could change from region to region, and even from person to person. But my wife’s favorite teaching job, before coming to China, was at a Catholic private school.

 

[maryj]

the first penny of my tax dollars that flows to a private school had better be followed by this level of scrutiny and accountability.

I suspect that most private schools want absolutely nothing to do with any of this. If the same laws that are applied to public schools are applied to private schools, private schools will be in trouble very, very quickly.

And in the same vein, My husband and I have paid our taxes, much of which goes into public education, and yet our daughter did not attend public schools until high school. Didn’t take much scrutiny to see that a catholic education was the right choice for us. Superior?.. ABSOLUTELY!! Just one last thought…I am a business manager of a locally run business. When kids come in looking for work, and in the education portion of the application, if a private catholic school is noted ,you can bet the first and last penny of your tax dollars that I’ll look at that application with more “interest”. Biased? maybe…but it seems to work for us. And I agree completely that our catholic schools will be in trouble if the same “Laws” that are applied to public schools are applied to private schools. “Gods Laws” are applied in catholic schools, they are actually taught, maybe if we as a country, applied those laws in our public schools we wouldn’t even be talking about this.

 

[melensdad]

I’m still trying to figure out why some people object to the concept of the “voucher system” because based on the voucher proposals I have seen, the criticism that I read here is not accurate.

There is some question about “details” and in some areas where vouchers are used they can be used for Catholic and other private schools. In other areas the vouchers can only be used in public schools. Still, what is the **real beef **with a voucher system?

As of 6pm CST today, 10 people don’t like the voucher system (6 say its bad, 4 say they would keep their kids in public school even with vouchers) while 29 think vouchers, or at least school choice, are good (15+1+13) in some way. So of the possible 10 folks who oppose it in some way, WHY?
And perhaps it is not fair to say the 4 who would keep their kids in public school really dislike the concept of vouchers, it is possible that the private schools in their area are simply not as good as the public schools.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I’m still trying to figure out why some people object to the concept of the “voucher system” because based on the voucher proposals I have seen, the criticism that I read here is not accurate.

There is some question about “details” and in some areas where vouchers are used they can be used for Catholic and other private schools. In other areas the vouchers can only be used in public schools. Still, what is the **real beef **with a voucher system?

As of 6pm CST today, 10 people don’t like the voucher system (6 say its bad, 4 say they would keep their kids in public school even with vouchers) while 29 think vouchers are good (15+1+13) in some way. So of the possible 10 folks who oppose it in some way, WHY?

And perhaps it is not fair to say the 4 who would keep their kids in public school really dislike the concept of vouchers, it is possible that the private schools in their area are simply not as good as the public schools.

Here are the problems with voucher systems:

1. If effective, they create competition in education, and the supporters of public schools are afraid they will lose the competition. This one I discount – if public schools can’t compete, shame on them!
2. They usually have poisoned pills inserted – the enabling laws are written so most children can’t qualify, and they don’t pay enough – only a fraction of what the public schools spend per child.
3. The government never gives out money without strings attached. For Catholic schools, we are handing our schools over to the government.

 

[melensdad]

1. They usually have poisoned pills inserted – the enabling laws are written so most children can’t qualify, and they don’t pay enough – only a fraction of what the public schools spend per child.
2. The government never gives out money without strings attached. For Catholic schools, we are handing our schools over to the government.

Vern, regarding #2, there is no guarantee that any voucher system will pay full private tuition. However it does offer some amount that can be used to put a child into a private school, OR it can be used for full tuition at a **different **public school.

Regarding point #3, the devil is always in the details, but just because there are some strings attached does not mean they are always bad strings. I have not seen any voucher system that would require us to hand our Catholic schools (or any school) over to the government.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Vern, regarding #2, there is no guarantee that any voucher system will pay full private tuition. However it does offer some amount that can be used to put a child into a private school,

When the average per-pupil expenditure is $8,000 per child, a voucher ought to pay that much, not $2,000. This is one of the poisoned pills.

OR it can be used for full tuition at a **different **public school.

If that school has room and** if** you can transport the child to and from school.

Regarding point #3, the devil is always in the details, but just because there are some strings attached does not mean they are always bad strings. I have not seen any voucher system that would require us to hand our Catholic schools (or any school) over to the government.

We don’t see the hook because we haven’t taken the bait yet. But many another private institution of higher learning has been forced to do things the Feds’ way, and we shouldn’t expect any better experience.

 

[KCT]

Yet, most teachers I know fight for jobs in private schools, despite lower pay in general.

My wife has taught both at private Catholic schools and in public schools. The public schools paid more. She absolutely hated it. The Catholic school paid less. She loved it. And she wasn’t even a practicing Catholic while she worked there…)

I have a degree in education. I’ve been homeschooling for 15 years. I would never consider teaching in the local public schools. The academic and behavior standards are low and the grading scale has been changed so very few kids fail. An 8th grader can get 17 out of 34 points on the pre- Algebra final, get a score of 65 and pass. 17/34 should be a 50%. --KCT

 

[melensdad]

When the average per-pupil expenditure is $8,000 per child, a voucher ought to pay that much, not $2,000. This is one of the poisoned pills.

I guess I see it differently. Our parish school has tuition of roughly $3500. It is too expensive for many parents to afford in my rural area. I’d love to get a $2000 reduction in my bill, and I think the school would probably get a lot more students too. That is good for me, good for the school and good for the children. It also will reduce the children at the public schools and create competition. All good so far.

If that school has room and** if** you can transport the child to and from school.

True. That is true for private schools too. There is no school district that has a perfect scenario for everyone, every time and voucher won’t resolve this. But they will HELP more people.

We don’t see the hook because we haven’t taken the bait yet. But many another private institution of higher learning has been forced to do things the Feds’ way, and we shouldn’t expect any better experience.

Some voucher systems already exist and I’ve not seen any of the doom & gloom, at least not yet. Perhaps we can stand up and fight to get voucher systems and also fight to keep them positive.

If we don’t do something then we are stuck with what we have, and what we have is getting worse every year. Seems logical to try something to introduce higher standards, competition, and supports greater opportunities for children. That’s all I suggest. If we keep doing what we are doing it isn’t going to get any better!

KCT:

I would never consider teaching in the local public schools. The academic and behavior standards are low and the grading scale has been changed so very few kids fail.

At my wife’s school system they are not even allowed to use red pens when they grade because red ink may hurt the self esteem of the students when they get wrong answers

 

[vern_humphrey]

I guess I see it differently. Our parish school has tuition of roughly $3500. It is too expensive for many parents to afford in my rural area. I’d love to get a $2000 reduction in my bill, and I think the school would probably get a lot more students too. That is good for me, good for the school and good for the children. It also will reduce the children at the public schools and create competition. All good so far.

Except for those children whose parents can’t afford the $1,500 difference between the $2,000 voucher and the $3,500 tuition.

Now, the parish may help those kids – but that money has to come out of someone’s pocket. And when it’s spent on tuition, it can’t be spent for other things.

True. That is true for private schools too. There is no school district that has a perfect scenario for everyone, every time and voucher won’t resolve this. But they will HELP more people.

The point is, public schools are anti-competitive. This won’t introduce much competition into the system – which is the ultimate solution.

Some voucher systems already exist and I’ve not seen any of the doom & gloom, at least not yet. Perhaps we can stand up and fight to get voucher systems and also fight to keep them positive.

Why not fight for True Choice on constitutional grounds? It is unconstitutional for some kids to get stuck in bad public schools, while other kids enjoy good public schools?

If we don’t do something then we are stuck with what we have, and what we have is getting worse every year. Seems logical to try something to introduce higher standards, competition, and supports greater opportunities for children. That’s all I suggest. If we keep doing what we are doing it isn’t going to get any better!

Which is why I say True Choice – let the parents pick any school, and pay that school from 90 to 95% of the per-pupil education expenditure. When the parents can pick the school, you have competition, and the parents have the ultimate Quality Control tool – the right to say, “I’ll take my buisiness elsewhere.”

 

[melensdad]

Except for those children whose parents can’t afford the $1,500 difference between the $2,000 voucher and the $3,500 tuition.

Now, the parish may help those kids – but that money has to come out of someone’s pocket. And when it’s spent on tuition, it can’t be spent for other things.

Vern, I think you are making my point. The current tuition cost is $3500. A $2000 voucher will not pay the entire cost, but it will make the school MORE AFFORDABLE TO MORE PARISH members. Vouchers may not resolve every issue, but they will help. You seem to be tossing out the whole concept because it is not perfect?

I agree your suggestions (which I did not include above) are better, but why not start with what we can get and work to make it better?

 

[maryj]

Except for those children whose parents can’t afford the $1,500 difference between the $2,000 voucher and the $3,500 tuition.

Now, the parish may help those kids – but that money has to come out of someone’s pocket. And when it’s spent on tuition, it can’t be spent for other things.

We were not able to afford the tuition at our local parish school. We were given credit for hours donated at school fund raisers. Bake sales, parish bazaars etc. Our local knights of columbus gives yearly a donation to the school that is to be used only for tuition asistance. Now our daughter is in college and we are financially capable of giving more money to our parish. As a matter of fact we were able to give a large donation to our capital campaign with which we just finished building a brand, spanking new school, which will be dedicated by our Bishop on September 5th 2007. Just because tuition didn’t come directly out of our pocket then, doesn’t necessarily mean that it doesn’t come out of our pocket now. We are more than thankful for those whose “pockets” that money came out of to help us. Funny how everything in life seems to balance itself out.

 

[Michaeljc4]

Why not fight for True Choice on constitutional grounds? It is unconstitutional for some kids to get stuck in bad public schools, while other kids enjoy good public schools?

Because our Constitution doesn’t address education; it would have to be ammended…which is possible, but unlikely. Education has been a local issue from the beginning, which is why there are such disparities in school systems both within, and between, states. Funding, curriculum, teacher quality, the conditions of buildings, the availability of texts, computers, extracurriculars, the rigor of mandatory achievment tests,etc. are all almost entirely dependent on local $$$. In Massachusetts, our state constitution address education, which is why our legislature has to deal with the issue on a statewide level…and why we have such good schools, in general.

At my wife’s school system they are not even allowed to use red pens when they grade because red ink may hurt the self esteem of the students when they get wrong answers

Shame on the people in that school district for tolerating such nonsense. They’re your schools, Melensdad. Fight the power, my friend. Find like minded parents, band together, and shape the policy.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Vern, I think you are making my point. The current tuition cost is $3500. A $2000 voucher will not pay the entire cost, but it will make the school MORE AFFORDABLE TO MORE PARISH members. Vouchers may not resolve every issue, but they will help. You seem to be tossing out the whole concept because it is not perfect?

I agree your suggestions (which I did not include above) are better, but why not start with what we can get and work to make it better?

There are two issues here. One is solving the general education problem, the other is Catholic schools.

For the general education problem, choice is the answer. In that sense, anything that gives parents more control over their children’s education is an improvement – although as I have said, some voucher programs have been so watered down as to be useless.

For Catholic schools, the answer is different. Who takes the king’s shilling is the king’s man.

 

[wkwthme]

"Some voucher systems already exist and I’ve not seen any of the doom & gloom, at least not yet. Perhaps we can stand up and fight to get voucher systems and also fight to keep them positive. "
I agree with this poster’s last sentence completely! I am the mother of 2 children enrolled in Catholic elementary schools (one will be a high school student next school year). We have had a very bad experience with vouchers here in Dayton, OH. I was a supporter of vouchers prior to seeing the result of them in our schools. Our vouchers are available to all children in a public school that is “failing” according to our state standards. Since our children were already in Catholic schools, they did not qualify for the vouchers. To try and make a really long story short, our newly consolidated parish (3 churches, 3 schools) closed the school our children attended. It opened 1 school with 2 locations, one of which is across town in a neighborhood I was not comfortable sending my children to. We chose not to send our child to the other location for lots of reasons (which should be posted in another thread about parish consolidation). Fortunately, we were able to send them to school in another parish but still qualify for a parish rate. This school is closer than the 2 offered by my church.

Back to our experience with vouchers…the kids’ new school was known for its strict discipline and high academic standards. 75% of the honor roll students in the sister high school were graduates of this elementary school–and they do not even come close to representing that percentage in the high school. This year our consolidated parish sent about 6 kids to this school and it was the first year they accepted voucher students. During this school year problems went through the roof, resulting in a change to the discipline policy & procedures they had been using for years and years without issue. The new students failed miserably in their classes (including our parish kids) the first quarter. Voucher students were ill prepared for the jump in expectations and, I imagine, neither were the parents. I believe the knowledge gap was just too big for the older students to bridge and the higher discipline expectations of all students were too much. Our parish kids were able to get their grades back up to acceptable standards with a lot of help and support from parents. The teachers were miserable–going from the “culture” of private school to the reality of the problems faced in public school (undisciplined & academically behind students, failure to respect God or the 10 Commandments, lack of parental involvement/reinforcement etc.).

Overall, voucher student parents were angry that their children were failing so bad & getting into trouble so often, when, in those parents experience, this was the best & most work they had ever done and their behavior was not a problem. For example, a child gets a detention for hugging a classmate (no public displays of affection allowed at this Catholic school). It was a culture shock to both groups.

Since the Catholic students had a “choice”, they left and went to schools that do not accept vouchers. The home parish children & the out-of-parish children are now almost completely gone from the parish/school. The percentage of Catholic children at the school dropped from 90% to about 20%. There has been a parish commission established to address the problems but it seems to be too late for most families, especially because these families felt ignored by the school when they stated their intentions to leave. We, as non-parish Catholics were not included in the commission either. I do not know if voucher parents have representation on the council. It is important to point out that this school historically attracted non-Catholic students prior to this year because of its high academic standards, so I do not believe it’s a religion-based problem.

In my opinion, our archdioceses ignored the needs of its Catholic students in order to evangelize & get public funding to secure the future of its schools. I do believe their first priority was to minister to urban children through education & religious values. Unfortunately, due to the drastic change in population and resulting problems, I worry that the school will lose its Catholic identity. Anyone that believes, at least in this city, getting full, non-parish rate reimbursement from the state was not a huge contributing factor is kidding themselves. Many of my peers believe that was its first priority. I believe school/Church administration had to have a sense of what would happen and felt the Catholics would endure (especially in the new school’s parish where generations of large families have worshipped and educated their children). Instead, we feel abandoned, unheard and disrespected.

 

[wkwthme]

I hope the above post is not too long or too much of a vent. I really wanted to share our experience with vouchers to alert others that yes, the devil is in the details! If you lobby for vouchers for your community please be sure your school has an appropriate admissions policy & prepares for how the dynamics of the school may be changed. I have elected to keep my youngest at the school (for lots of different reasons, including avoiding scandal) and try to work within the system for change. I will revisit my decision at Christmas break, however, and may decide a non-voucher Catholic school is best.

 

[Sr_Sally]

Couldn’t answer the poll because I would do different things for different children. My dc have been in private schools, homeschooled, and been in ps. They have never been in Catholic schools because until this Easter my dh was not Catholic. However, we have always been a devout family with regular family prayers. We also live in an excellent school district and the public schools they have attended have been great.

If vouchers become standard, I would like to see a truly open system that would allow parent s to send their children to any school of their choice–including Catholic or other religion schools. However, I do think there needs to be a base-line funding for public schools because there are many, many parents who aren’t going to know, to care, or to bother to research options and change their child’s school. I think it is very much in the state’s and community’s interests to have those children educated as well as possible.

 

[Holly3278]

I have no children as I am single but I believe that vouchers are a good thing!