Waiter for the Priest?

[Neil_Anthony]

I went to mass at this unusual parish recently and before the “Liturgy of the Eucharist” a layman set up the table and the water and wine and everything for the priest. I’ve never seen that before. Is that allowed?

Also during the consecration most people gathered in a big circle around the altar, and no body knelt.

Then the sacred Hosts (didn’t see if they were actual hosts or regular-shaped loaves of bread, didn’t go to communion) were split up into a bunch of wicker bread baskets with a cloth lining each one.

At the beginning of the mass, the hymn didn’t mention God but talked about how we “revere the Earth” and we had to turn to face west, east, north, south for each verse in the song. And then in the announcements they said we were invited to a winter solstice celebration on the 21st.

I felt like I had stepped into some kind of pagan ceremony! Was it ever weird!

 

[coolduude]

Ummmm yeahhhh.

That “Mass” was probably not valid at all.

 

[meerkat]

I went to that same mass too what a coincidence

 

[tee_eff_em]

That “Mass” was probably not valid at all.

I don’t know that such judgment could be rendered from the information given, but it certainly reads as if several illicit practices took place.

:twocents:
tee

 

[Ceil-1]

Perhaps you should notify the local church authorities.

It may be a church similar to Spiritus Christus in Rochester where the priest was banned from confecting the real Sacrament. He went and started his own church with a woman priest. It looks and sounds similar to a Catholic church, but isn’t.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I went to that same mass too what a coincidence

Oh I think I saw you there… you were the only other person kneeling during the consecration, right?

 

[meerkat]

I always kneel :bowdown: you should know that by now lol… I recall someone else kneeling beside me, can’t think of his name tho. that is what you get for being old. I love traditional churches :tiphat: especially Irish

 

[Aramis]

I went to mass at this unusual parish recently and before the “Liturgy of the Eucharist” a layman set up the table and the water and wine and everything for the priest. I’ve never seen that before. Is that allowed?

Yes. It’s the deacon’s liturgical role, failing that, it does fall to the servers; the servers should be vested in either alb or cassock and surplice, but adult servers often don’t. If there is a server, it’s permissable for him to lay out the corporal, and place the empty chalice and the patton and ciboria with unconsecrated hosts upon the altar; they may even place the wine and water upon the altar for the priest to use. (The deacon actually comingles the water and the wine; laymen may not.)

Also during the consecration most people gathered in a big circle around the altar, and no body knelt.

No, not licit.

Then the sacred Hosts (didn’t see if they were actual hosts or regular-shaped loaves of bread, didn’t go to communion) were split up into a bunch of wicker bread baskets with a cloth lining each one.

Illicit and very ancient and long abandoned practice of the early church.

At the beginning of the mass, the hymn didn’t mention God but talked about how we “revere the Earth” and we had to turn to face west, east, north, south for each verse in the song. And then in the announcements they said we were invited to a winter solstice celebration on the 21st.

I felt like I had stepped into some kind of pagan ceremony! Was it ever weird!

It sounds like you found a so-called “Independent Catholic” parish exploring primitive liturgy. definitely illicit; most IC’s are not validly ordained, either…

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Yes. It’s the deacon’s liturgical role, failing that, it does fall to the servers; the servers should be vested in either alb or cassock and surplice, but adult servers often don’t. If there is a server, it’s permissable for him to lay out the corporal, and place the empty chalice and the patton and ciboria with unconsecrated hosts upon the altar; they may even place the wine and water upon the altar for the priest to use. (The deacon actually comingles the water and the wine; laymen may not.)

Oh… that’s interesting, I’ve never seen that done before. The priest was sitting down off to the side while this person get the altar all set up with the wine and bread etc.

It sounds like you found a so-called “Independent Catholic” parish exploring primitive liturgy. definitely illicit; most IC’s are not validly ordained, either…

This parish is listed in the diocesan directory, and I know the priest at least belongs to a legitimate order… I would assume he 's a real priest. Interesting…

There was also a liturgical dance but it was immediately after the mass dismissal so I guess it doesn’t count.

 

[benedictgal]

A lot of what you described is highly questionable. The adult altar server I can pass up, but, as for the gathering around the altar, the consistency of the bread and the vessels in which they were placed, these go against the GIRM.

Redemptionis Sarcramentum notes this about the altar bread:

[48.] The bread used in the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharistic Sacrifice must be unleavened, purely of wheat, and recently made so that there is no danger of decomposition.123 It follows therefore that bread made from another substance, even if it is grain, or if it is mixed with another substance different from wheat to such an extent that it would not commonly be considered wheat bread, does not constitute valid matter for confecting the Sacrifice and the Eucharistic Sacrament.124 It is a grave abuse to introduce other substances, such as fruit or sugar or honey, into the bread for confecting the Eucharist. Hosts should obviously be made by those who are not only distinguished by their integrity, but also skilled in making them and furnished with suitable tools.125

Regarding the vessels from which the Sacred Hosts are to distributed, the document states that:

1. Sacred Vessels
   [117.] Sacred vessels for containing the Body and Blood of the Lord must be made in strict conformity with the norms of tradition and of the liturgical books.205 The Bishops’ Conferences have the faculty to decide whether it is appropriate, once their decisions have been given the recognitio by the Apostolic See, for sacred vessels to be made of other solid materials as well. It is strictly required, however, that such materials be truly noble in the common estimation within a given region,206 so that honor will be given to the Lord by their use, and all risk of diminishing the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharistic species in the eyes of the faithful will be avoided. Reprobated, therefore, is any practice of using for the celebration of Mass common vessels, or others lacking in quality, or devoid of all artistic merit or which are mere containers, as also other vessels made from glass, earthenware, clay, or other materials that break easily. This norm is to be applied even as regards metals and other materials that easily rust or deteriorate.207

The dance should not have occurred, since this activity is not allowed during the Mass.

Here is a link to RS. You might need it for future reference:

adoremus.org/RedemptionisSacramentum.html#anchor1242988

What you described is certainly quite troubling.

 

[Aramis]

Here’s a link to RS in English at the Vatican Website:
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

and in latin:
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_lt.html

 

[puzzleannie]

I At the beginning of the mass, the hymn didn’t mention God but talked about how we “revere the Earth” and we had to turn to face west, east, north, south for each verse in the song. And then in the announcements they said we were invited to a winter solstice celebration on the 21st.

I felt like I had stepped into some kind of pagan ceremony! Was it ever weird!

I would definitely contact the diocese and find out if this is a Catholic parish and if the priest is in good standing, because I would have grave doubts in that situation. as far as “helping the priest” there are legitimate roles for the deacon, or lay servers if present, but the rest of this sounds flakey

 

[John_Lilburne]

I went to mass at this unusual parish recently and before the “Liturgy of the Eucharist” a layman set up the table and the water and wine and everything for the priest. I’ve never seen that before. Is that allowed?..

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal has:
“139. When the Prayer of the Faithful is completed, all sit, and the Offertory chant begins (cf. above, no. 74).
An acolyte or other lay minister arranges the corporal, the purificator, the chalice, the pall, and the Missal upon the altar.”

This is from the description of “Mass Without A Deacon”. So, for this Mass, it is a liturgical abuse if the priest puts these items on the altar.

For Mass With a Deacon:
“178. After the Prayer of the Faithful, while the priest remains at the chair, the deacon prepares the altar, assisted by the acolyte, but it is the deacon’s place to take care of the sacred vessels himself.”

From GIRM, n. 208: “In the absence also of other ministers, their proper parts may be entrusted to other suitable members of the faithful; otherwise, they are carried out by some of the concelebrants.”

 

[Neil_Anthony]

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal has:
“139. When the Prayer of the Faithful is completed, all sit, and the Offertory chant begins (cf. above, no. 74).
An acolyte or other lay minister arranges the corporal, the purificator, the chalice, the pall, and the Missal upon the altar.”

This is from the description of “Mass Without A Deacon”. So, for this Mass, it is a liturgical abuse if the priest puts these items on the altar.

For Mass With a Deacon:
“178. After the Prayer of the Faithful, while the priest remains at the chair, the deacon prepares the altar, assisted by the acolyte, but it is the deacon’s place to take care of the sacred vessels himself.”

From GIRM, n. 208: “In the absence also of other ministers, their proper parts may be entrusted to other suitable members of the faithful; otherwise, they are carried out by some of the concelebrants.”

Thank you.
I guess what threw me off is that normally the lay person or deacon does this quietly before the mass starts. They don’t make a big show of doing it after the homily while the priest is sitting down waiting, and everyone is watching. But I guess the GIRM doesn’t say when they should do it?