Waldensians

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I was wondering if someone could explain in detail (preferably citing sources) what the specifics of the Waldensian heresy entailed.

I hear it often said that they were teaching false doctrines, but never what these ideas were.

I hear it said they were twisting scripture, unlearned, and had no idea what they were quoting even meant. I need details, I think this is important, especially given the protestant tendency to “align themselves” with the Waldensians, not even knowing what they taught, other than rejecting Church Authority.

Thanks
 
Do a google search on it and other links that it suggests you check out .
 
According to Wikipedia, the remnants of the Waldensians in Italy merged with the Italian Methodists.

In the USA it seems they became Presbyterians.
 
The Waldensians named after their founder Peter Valdes, or “Waldo”. in the 1100’s they were also known as the “Poor Preachers”. These ignored their Bishops and became independent and recognized whom they wanted to recognize as worthy of ministering the sacraments.

St. Francis of Assisi was one who confronted these heretical groups not by argument but by example; Both Waldensians and Cartharism were heresies that believed the Catholic Church renounced its original mission. These heretical groups believed in lay preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ and practiced extreme poverty; not so by those who profess to follow these today. St. Francis showed them that “poverty” could be lived within the context of the orthodox Catholic Church.

The dominant heretical group during this time were called the “Albigensians” other wise known as "Carthars (cartharism) or Manicheans were dualists. All created things were evil, they believed in Suicide as commendable and preached that Jesus was not really a man, and Jesus did not suffer and die on the cross or raise from the dead.

The Roman Catholic Church gets alot of negative publicity from their resistance; When the Church sought legislation against them and encouraged her preachers to combat heresy by persuasion, until a papal delegate was murdered prompted the northern French who were a people not patient to heresy began what later became known as the Albigensian Crusade. In one case alone 140 Albigensians were burned to death.

Pope Innocent III put a stop to all this by sending his own method of Inquistion by Friars who were devoted to the Church and the Pope, and were not lead by any persuasion. By 1246 only 207 heretics were sentenced, none of them were burnt at the stake, 23 recieved a prison sentence, 184 had to wear crosses for a period of time.

I just finished a book by John Vidamar, OP “The Catholic Church through the ages” I selected to read this book, because it gives both sides of an argument to documented History and reveals what the Protestants have been feeding their communities negativity about the Catholic Church is now being presented today as bias and a Lie by today’s scholary historical standards. Its a moderate to easy read.
 
Gabriel_of_12 said:
The Waldensians named after their founder Peter Valdes, or “Waldo”. in the 1100’s they were also known as the “Poor Preachers”. These ignored their Bishops and became independent and recognized whom they wanted to recognize as worthy of ministering the sacraments.

St. Francis of Assisi was one who confronted these heretical groups not by argument but by example; Both Waldensians and Cartharism were heresies that believed the Catholic Church renounced its original mission. These heretical groups believed in lay preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ and practiced extreme poverty; not so by those who profess to follow these today. St. Francis showed them that “poverty” could be lived within the context of the orthodox Catholic Church.

The dominant heretical group during this time were called the “Albigensians” other wise known as "Carthars (cartharism) or Manicheans were dualists. All created things were evil, they believed in Suicide as commendable and preached that Jesus was not really a man, and Jesus did not suffer and die on the cross or raise from the dead.

The Roman Catholic Church gets alot of negative publicity from their resistance; When the Church sought legislation against them and encouraged her preachers to combat heresy by persuasion, until a papal delegate was murdered prompted the northern French who were a people not patient to heresy began what later became known as the Albigensian Crusade. In one case alone 140 Albigensians were burned to death.

Pope Innocent III put a stop to all this by sending his own method of Inquistion by Friars who were devoted to the Church and the Pope, and were not lead by any persuasion. By 1246 only 207 heretics were sentenced, none of them were burnt at the stake, 23 recieved a prison sentence, 184 had to wear crosses for a period of time.

I just finished a book by John Vidamar, OP “The Catholic Church through the ages” I selected to read this book, because it gives both sides of an argument to documented History and reveals what the Protestants have been feeding their communities negativity about the Catholic Church is now being presented today as bias and a Lie by today’s scholary historical standards. Its a moderate to easy read.
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Were the waldensians dualists? Besides private interpretation, and rejecting Church authority, are there any other details about their false teachings?
 
mawst said:
Were the waldensians dualists? Besides private interpretation, and rejecting Church authority, are there any other details about their false teachings?
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All original source documents have been destroyed. We only have their enemies to cite what they believed, not at all reliable.
 
mawst said:
Were the waldensians dualists? Besides private interpretation, and rejecting Church authority, are there any other details about their false teachings?
Click to expand...
Gabriel of 12;

From what I can recall from other sources, which I will try and give you next time. The “Waldensians” were literalists readers of the bible. For one example when the bible speaks about “proclaiming the good news from the roof tops”, You guessed it, they litterally would climb up on roof tops and shout from the roof tops their private litteral biblical interpretations. I dont believe they fell into the heresy of dualism as did the Manicheans taught. The Waldensians were biblical litteralists and practiced as such especially in given up all things litterally for the Kingdom of God, they expressed this in their poverty living. I am recalling two resources of their recorded practices cant be sure at this time.

One sect who supposedly know of the Waldensians and claim to follow their free spiritness to interpret the bible are SDA’s. They accuse much of their (Waldensians) atrocities by their local “catholic” Kings and princes who targeted Heretics in their communities to the Pope and the Catholic Church.
 
Hisalone said:
All original source documents have been destroyed. We only have their enemies to cite what they believed, not at all reliable.
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Everything I’ve read about the waldensians suggests they were hardly literate. As for what they did write, Peter Waldo has some writings apparently still surviving, in the “Archivum Fratrum Praedicatorum” and the “Enchiridion Fontium Valdensium”.

Although, I have yet to see someone produce these writings.
 
mawst said:
Everything I’ve read about the waldensians suggests they were hardly literate. As for what they did write, Peter Waldo has some writings apparently still surviving, in the “Archivum Fratrum Praedicatorum” and the “Enchiridion Fontium Valdensium”.

Although, I have yet to see someone produce these writings.
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Ancient origins asserted and disputed
Some researchers argue that the group has existed since the time of the apostles, a claim that is disputed by some modern scholarship.[1] The supporters of the ancient origin claim the Waldenses’ name does not in fact come from Peter Waldo, as modern scholars contend, but from the area in which they lived. [8] They claim Peter Waldo in fact got his name by association with the Waldenses. This thought was current in the early 19th century:

“Some Protestants, on this occasion, have fallen into the snare that was set for them…It is absolutely false, that these churches were ever found by Peter Waldo…it is a pure forgery.” [9]
“It is not true, that Waldo gave this name to the inhabitants of the valleys: they were called Waldenses, or Vaudes, before his time, from the valleys in which they dwelt.” [10]
"On the other hand, he “was called Valdus, or Waldo, because he received his religious notions from the inhabitants of the valleys.” [11]
The claim of an ancient origin was for a long time accepted as valid by Protestant historians.[7] The Alexandrine Nobles Lessons, written in Provençal, was thought at one time to have been composed in 1100, but all scholars now date it between 1190 and 1240.[12] Other scholars claimed Claudius, Bishop of Turin (died 840), Berengarius of Tours (died 1088), or other such men who had preceded Peter Waldo, as the founder of the group.[7] In the nineteenth century, however, critics came to the conclusion that the poem and other Waldensian documents offered as proof had been altered.[7] For example, the respected Waldensian scholar Dr. Emilio Comba dismissed the theories related to the ancient origin of the Waldensians in the middle of the 19th century. [7]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians
 
Hisalone said:
Ancient origins asserted and disputed
Some researchers argue that the group has existed since the time of the apostles, a claim that is disputed by some modern scholarship.[1] The supporters of the ancient origin claim the Waldenses’ name does not in fact come from Peter Waldo, as modern scholars contend, but from the area in which they lived. [8] They claim Peter Waldo in fact got his name by association with the Waldenses. This thought was current in the early 19th century:

“Some Protestants, on this occasion, have fallen into the snare that was set for them…It is absolutely false, that these churches were ever found by Peter Waldo…it is a pure forgery.” [9]
“It is not true, that Waldo gave this name to the inhabitants of the valleys: they were called Waldenses, or Vaudes, before his time, from the valleys in which they dwelt.” [10]
"On the other hand, he “was called Valdus, or Waldo, because he received his religious notions from the inhabitants of the valleys.” [11]
The claim of an ancient origin was for a long time accepted as valid by Protestant historians.[7] The Alexandrine Nobles Lessons, written in Provençal, was thought at one time to have been composed in 1100, but all scholars now date it between 1190 and 1240.[12] Other scholars claimed Claudius, Bishop of Turin (died 840), Berengarius of Tours (died 1088), or other such men who had preceded Peter Waldo, as the founder of the group.[7] In the nineteenth century, however, critics came to the conclusion that the poem and other Waldensian documents offered as proof had been altered.[7] For example, the respected Waldensian scholar Dr. Emilio Comba dismissed the theories related to the ancient origin of the Waldensians in the middle of the 19th century. [7]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians
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I’m aware of all the Wiki, Catholic Encyclopedia etc entries. I’m looking for what’s not been said already, though your comment is appreciated.
 
Gabriel_of_12 said:
They accuse much of their (Waldensians) atrocities by their local “catholic” Kings and princes who targeted Heretics in their communities to the Pope and the Catholic Church.
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Is english your first language? This is one of the sentences that makes me ask the question, because it has unusual structure.
 
mawst said:
Everything I’ve read about the waldensians suggests they were hardly literate. As for what they did write, Peter Waldo has some writings apparently still surviving, in the “Archivum Fratrum Praedicatorum” and the “Enchiridion Fontium Valdensium”.

Although, I have yet to see someone produce these writings.
Click to expand...
Most people at that time were hardly literate, except for Jews, who have always had a higher literacy rate than the surrounding population.
 
mawst said:
I was wondering if someone could explain in detail (preferably citing sources) what the specifics of the Waldensian heresy entailed.

I hear it often said that they were teaching false doctrines, but never what these ideas were.

I hear it said they were twisting scripture, unlearned, and had no idea what they were quoting even meant. I need details, I think this is important, especially given the protestant tendency to “align themselves” with the Waldensians, not even knowing what they taught, other than rejecting Church Authority.

Thanks
Click to expand...
The Waldensians were a religious sect founded by a merchant of Lyons, Peter Waldo. Deeply impressed by the sudden death of a friend, in 1176, this rich merchant abandoned the world, distributed his wealth to the poor, and dedicated himself to the evangelical life, preaching Christ and poverty. First the bishops, then the Holy See became concerned about this movement which was accompanied by rebellion against the true Church.

In 1184 the Waldenses were excommunicated, but this did not hinder them, and they continued to spread even in Italy, especially in Piedmont and Lombardy. Quickly their doctrine revealed its opposition to the hierarchy, the sacraments, and Catholic worship; the Holy Scripture was the subject of their particular study. Upon the advent of the Lutheran Reformation, the Waldenses adhered to the new heresy, and thus exposed themselves to bitter persecution during the Counter-Reformation, especially in the mountainous regions of Piedmont. Nowadays the Waldenses in large part follow the heresy of Calvinism.

The Waldensian heresy held that preaching was the privilege of any Christian, regardless of approval or disapproval of the true Chruch. Insisting on preaching, the heresy attacked the true Church’s authority, doctrines, sacraments, and the veneration of images of the saints and of the Lord. Additionally, in order to make Scripture the sole touchstone of his preaching, he had to substitute his own interpretations of Scripture for that of the true Church, and, by doing so, substituted his own man-made traditions for Sacred Tradition.

Waldo also called into question oaths, tithes, military service and the death penalty.
 
mawst said:
I’m aware of all the Wiki, Catholic Encyclopedia etc entries. I’m looking for what’s not been said already, though your comment is appreciated.
Click to expand...
Then you know that very little can be known about them. When did they start? Unknown
What did they believe? Unknown, Why they were persecuted? Unknown.
 
Cluny said:
Most people at that time were hardly literate, except for Jews, who have always had a higher literacy rate than the surrounding population.
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That is a false assumption. There were many more literate than were accounted for. Besides the clergy, nobility the merchant class was literate.
 
Tomster said:
The Waldensians were a religious sect founded by a merchant of Lyons, Peter Waldo. Deeply impressed by the sudden death of a friend, in 1176, this rich merchant abandoned the world, distributed his wealth to the poor, and dedicated himself to the evangelical life, preaching Christ and poverty. First the bishops, then the Holy See became concerned about this movement which was accompanied by rebellion against the true Church.

In 1184 the Waldenses were excommunicated, but this did not hinder them, and they continued to spread even in Italy, especially in Piedmont and Lombardy. Quickly their doctrine revealed its opposition to the hierarchy, the sacraments, and Catholic worship; the Holy Scripture was the subject of their particular study. Upon the advent of the Lutheran Reformation, the Waldenses adhered to the new heresy, and thus exposed themselves to bitter persecution during the Counter-Reformation, especially in the mountainous regions of Piedmont. Nowadays the Waldenses in large part follow the heresy of Calvinism.

The Waldensian heresy held that preaching was the privilege of any Christian, regardless of approval or disapproval of the true Chruch. Insisting on preaching, the heresy attacked the true Church’s authority, doctrines, sacraments, and the veneration of images of the saints and of the Lord. Additionally, in order to make Scripture the sole touchstone of his preaching, he had to substitute his own interpretations of Scripture for that of the true Church, and, by doing so, substituted his own man-made traditions for Sacred Tradition.

Waldo also called into question oaths, tithes, military service and the death penalty.
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None of what you have written is known.
 
Actually, I have a hard time understanding the prohibition of preaching. Everyone should be able and willing to do so.

Preach the gospel always, If necessary use words. ~ St. Francis of Assisi
 
Hesychios said:
Actually, I have a hard time understanding the prohibition of preaching. Everyone should be able and willing to do so.

Preach the gospel always, If necessary use words. ~ St. Francis of Assisi
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You should have a hard time with a lot of what Rome did with regards to the Waldensians.
 
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