Walter Martin the Man and his books

[Boxerdog]

I have a few Catholic books that often note books written by Walter Martin and his study of cults and other faiths. One such book, written by Carl Olson has several recomendations about books written by Martin that cover the JWs and end times movement.

Has anyone read any of these books? I know he wasnt anti-Catholic, but what was his position concerning the Catholic church?

 

[Fidelis]

I have a few Catholic books that often note books written by Walter Martin and his study of cults and other faiths. One such book, written by Carl Olson has several recomendations about books written by Martin that cover the JWs and end times movement.

Has anyone read any of these books? I know he wasnt anti-Catholic, but what was his position concerning the Catholic church?

Walter Martin was the founder of the Evangelical apologist organization “The Christian Research Institute” (CRI) and the original host of the still popular radio show “The Bible Answer Man” now hosted by Hank Hanegraf.

Martin was more or less anti-Catholic in his earlier days, but as he grew older, and had regular interaction with the then up-and-coming apologists from Catholic Answers, his stance gradually softened.

At the time of his death, I got the impression that his opinion was that of the current attitude of CRI – one of strict disagreements of certain Catholic teachings (i.e., on Mary, Purgatory, justification, etc, etc) – but with grudging acknowledgement that its possible that individual Catholics *can be *Christians (though they offer the caveat that, once Catholics do “become” Christians, it is incomprehensible that they would ascribe to the “Roman Catholic System” )

 

[PhilVaz]

Yeah Walter Martin is the “godfather” of the evangelical anti-cult movement who authored many books from the 1960s forward. He died in 1989 shortly after debating liberal episcopal bishop John Spong. I have several of his books.

The only quirky thing about his theology is he rejected the term “eternal Son.” I have a debate on the Trinity he did on John Ankerberg with the Oneness Pentecostal folks where he rejected that. He accepted Jesus is the Word of God from eternity (John 1:1ff) who “became the Son” at the Incarnation (Heb 1:4ff).

He was more anti-Catholic in his early days (you can listen to early talks here) as the above post notes, but what I understand is Fr. Pacwa “softened” him up a bit when they debated on Ankerberg in 1986-87.

Pacwa and Martin supposedly talked about visiting Medugorje together, but after Martin died Ken Samples took the reigns at CRI as their “Catholicism expert” and published with Elliot Miller The Cult of the Virgin (1992). Most of which is answered by Fr. Mateo’s Refuting the Attack on Mary (originally This Rock 1992-93 articles and later a booklet).

Oh cool, just noticed they added some of Martin’s famous early appearances on the “Long John Nebel” show like the ones with atheist Madalyn Murray O’Hare. That should be fun.

Phil P

 

[William_Putnam]

Yeah Walter Martin is the “godfather” of the evangelical anti-cult movement who authored many books from the 1960s forward. He died in 1989 shortly after debating liberal episcopal bishop John Spong. I have several of his books.

The only quirky thing about his theology is he rejected the term “eternal Son.” I have a debate on the Trinity he did on John Ankerberg with the Oneness Pentecostal folks where he rejected that. He accepted Jesus is the Word of God from eternity (John 1:1ff) who “became the Son” at the Incarnation (Heb 1:4ff).

He was more anti-Catholic in his early days (you can listen to early talks here) as the above post notes, but what I understand is Fr. Pacwa “softened” him up a bit when they debated on Ankerberg in 1986-87.

Pacwa and Martin supposedly talked about visiting Medugorje together, but after Martin died Ken Samples took the reigns at CRI as their “Catholicism expert” and published with Elliot Miller The Cult of the Virgin (1992). Most of which is answered by Fr. Mateo’s Refuting the Attack on Mary (originally This Rock 1992-93 articles and later a booklet).

Oh cool, just noticed they added some of Martin’s famous early appearances on the “Long John Nebel” show like the ones with atheist Madalyn Murray O’Hare. That should be fun.

Phil P

Oh man, it’s like old times!

Didn’t you send me a tape of Walter Martin debatimg Fr. Pacwa, on the Johm Ankerberg show somes years back?

I still have them, a bunch of tapes you sent me!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

*I believe in God,
the Father Almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son,
Our Lord;
who was conceived by the holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died,
and was buried.

He descended into hell;
the third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
sitteth at the right hand of God,
the Father almighty;
from thence He shall come to judge
the living and the dead.

I believe in the holy Spirit,
the Holy Catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.*

• The Apostles Creed -

 

[PhilVaz]

<< Oh man, it’s like old times! Didn’t you send me a tape of Walter Martin debatimg Fr. Pacwa, on the Johm Ankerberg show somes years back? I still have them, a bunch of tapes you sent me! >>

Oh yeah! Bill Putnam what’s up!

Hey I’m finally fully up to speed and have gone completely digital now! Even the Pacwa/Martin debates I have converted to DVD format. All my old taped debates are now MP3 and I can crank out copies in about 10 seconds.

I’ll make the Walter Martin vs. Madalyn Murray Ohair debate available as one MP3 ! Almost done, click that link in about an hour!

I can convert Real Player audio to MP3 now too!

Phil P

 

[William_Putnam]

<< Oh man, it’s like old times! Didn’t you send me a tape of Walter Martin debatimg Fr. Pacwa, on the Johm Ankerberg show somes years back? I still have them, a bunch of tapes you sent me! >>

Oh yeah! Bill Putnam what’s up!

Hey I’m finally fully up to speed and have gone completely digital now! Even the Pacwa/Martin debates I have converted to DVD format. All my old taped debates are now MP3 and I can crank out copies in about 10 seconds.

I’ll make the Walter Martin vs. Madalyn Murray Ohair debate available as one MP3 ! Almost done, click that link in about an hour!

I can convert Real Player audio to MP3 now too!

Phil P

WOW! You are now “up town!”

I’ll do a visit to your site (which I ofdten do to quote some of your stuff when I was going whole hog in CARM) and see whatcha got!

I recently was able to renew my subscription to BaptistBoard, wondering why they invited me, when I was totally and completely banned a few years ago! When they found out who I was, they summarily banned me again!

And I was being nice! sniff, sniff :crying:

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

*Give me that REAL old time religion!
The CATHOLIC CHURCH, 2,000 years of history! *

 

[PhilVaz]

Martin vs. O’Hair Debate MP3

The Long John Nebel Show, this has to be at least 30 years old, so I’m guessing mid or early 1970s. Classic Walter Martin.

I lowered the pitch slightly but kept the same tempo. It should now sound like it originally did 30 years ago. The Real Player files at WalterMartin.org were slightly too high pitch, probably because they had to convert from “Reel to Reel” tapes or something. This is old stuff.

Phil P

 

[William_Putnam]

Martin vs. O’Hair Debate MP3

The Long John Nebel Show, this has to be at least 30 years old, so I’m guessing mid or early 1970s. Classic Walter Martin.

I lowered the pitch slightly but kept the same tempo. It should now sound like it originally did 30 years ago. The Real Player files at WalterMartin.org were slightly too high pitch, probably because they had to convert from “Reel to Reel” tapes or something. This is old stuff.

Phil P

Remember, you did all this before Al Gore “invented” the internet, and we were holding forth on the the old BBS’s and Fidonet.

Ah, those were the days…

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

*Give me that REAL old time religion!
The CATHOLIC CHURCH, 2,000 years of history! *

 

[kleary]

Oh man, it’s like old times!

Didn’t you send me a tape of Walter Martin debatimg Fr. Pacwa, on the John Ankerberg show somes years back?

I have that video also, “The Best of Roman Catholicism”. Ankerberg also still sells it on his website.

It is a shame however. That video must have much footage edited out because it seems like Martin and Ankerberg both take Fr. Pacwa to the whipping shed in it. I wrote to John Ankerberg complaining that most of the Catholic side was not represented. He answered my letter personally and admitted that the video had been edited in order for it to “not be so lengthy” and what was shown on the video was Fr. Pacwa’s best defense and representation of “Roman Catholicism”. He also said that Martin and Fr. Pacwa were good friends at that time and that Fr. Pacwa even attended his funeral.

You should watch it and see for yourself how much defense of our faith is not shown and how much must have been removed from the tape. Yet I wouldn’t send them the money they want for that tape today- I was foolish enough back when I was younger to give them “a gift of $35.00” in exchange for the tape.

Ken

 

[kleary]

Remember, you did all this before Al Gore “invented” the internet, and we were holding forth on the the old BBS’s and Fidonet.

Ah, those were the days…

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

Give me that REAL old time religion!
*The CATHOLIC CHURCH, 2,000 years of history! *

I had mine- you could call my computer in NJ via a telecom program and connect to- “Roman Catholic BBS of NJ”- the local paper even did a write up on it. They were all over the place with CIN and what is now EWTN’s website which used to be called Catholic Online I believe- correct me if I am wrong… then came the Internet and destroyed us all- or we all evolved to the NET. Mine became extinct.

Ken

 

[PhilVaz]

Kleary << You should watch it and see for yourself how much defense of our faith is not shown and how much must have been removed from the tape. Yet I wouldn’t send them the money they want for that tape today- I was foolish enough back when I was younger to give them “a gift of $35.00” in exchange for the tape. >>

If you don’t have 5.5 HOURS, you don’t have the whole thing. I got the original 4 videotapes in 1988. I agree Pacwa didn’t necessarily win these debates, but I thought he did quite well under the circumstances. I score them as follows (out of possible 10 points):

Peter and Papacy, Martin 4, Pacwa 6
Justification by Faith (several parts), Martin 6, Pacwa 4
Purgatory, Martin 7, Pacwa 3
Penance/Confession, Martin 5, Pacwa 5
Mary, Martin 4, Pacwa 6

This is subjective, but I give Pacwa the edge in their Peter/Papacy and Mary debates. Especially the extended discussions between Ankerberg and Pacwa, Pacwa wins.

Phil P

 

[William_Putnam]

I had mine- you could call my computer in NJ via a telecom program and connect to- “Roman Catholic BBS of NJ”- the local paper even did a write up on it. They were all over the place with CIN and what is now EWTN’s website which used to be called Catholic Online I believe- correct me if I am wrong… then came the Internet and destroyed us all- or we all evolved to the NET. Mine became extinct.

Ken

We had about three local BBS’s here in Pensacola that I could post on, and PhilVaz and I held forth on the “RCatholic” forum. But we also participated in the “Bible” (Or was it “Bible Only”?") where we would defend the faith vigoriously. Guess who was the moderator of that forum? None other then James R White! (Back before he got his “PH-D.”)

Phil knows him well!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

• Anima Christi -

Soul of Christ, sanctify me.
Body of Christ, save me.
Blood of Christ, inebriate me.
Water from the side of Christ, wash me.
Passion of Christ, strengthen me.
O good Jesus, hear me;
Within Thy wounds hide me and permit
me not to be separated from Thee.
From the Wicked Foe defend me.
And bid me to come to Thee,
That with Thy Saints I may praise Thee,
For ever and ever. Amen.

 

[William_Putnam]

Kleary << You should watch it and see for yourself how much defense of our faith is not shown and how much must have been removed from the tape. Yet I wouldn’t send them the money they want for that tape today- I was foolish enough back when I was younger to give them “a gift of $35.00” in exchange for the tape. >>

If you don’t have 5.5 HOURS, you don’t have the whole thing. I got the original 4 videotapes in 1988. I agree Pacwa didn’t necessarily win these debates, but I thought he did quite well under the circumstances. I score them as follows (out of possible 10 points):

Peter and Papacy, Martin 4, Pacwa 6
Justification by Faith (several parts), Martin 6, Pacwa 4
Purgatory, Martin 7, Pacwa 3
Penance/Confession, Martin 5, Pacwa 5
Mary, Martin 4, Pacwa 6

This is subjective, but I give Pacwa the edge in their Peter/Papacy and Mary debates. Especially the extended discussions between Ankerberg and Pacwa, Pacwa wins.

Phil P

But is was two against one, and even in the original taping, it seemed that Fr. Pacwa could not get a word in edgewise unless he bacame more assertive a time or ywo.

I give Fr. Pacwa greater marks for his performance, but then you see, I’m obviously biased!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

Et ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus et super hanc petram
aedificabo ecclesiam meam et portae inferi non praevalebunt
adversum eam et tibi dabo claves regni caelorum et quodcumque
ligaveris super terram erit ligatum in caelis et quodcumque
solveris super terram erit solutum in caelis.
(Matt 16:18-19 From the Latin Vulgate)

 

[PhilVaz]

Bill Putnam << Guess who was the moderator of that forum? None other then James R White! (Back before he got his “PH-D.”) Phil knows him well! >>

Ah yes, blasts from past. My entire FidoNet collection (one zip file, covers 1994-1998) of text files I make available online. I saved everything, including my humorous official banning (and parting shots) from both OpenBible and WhollyBible (1996), and even my banning from RCatholic (echo started by Jon Guidry). Fond memories. For four years I was using a 8088 with DOS. Didn’t get a “real computer” until late 1998.

Everyone is represented in those text files, all the major “players”, Catholics, Protestants, anti-Catholic fundies, the atheists from HolySmoke, and the Oneness guy Steve Winter (“Holy Bible” echo).

BBS: The 128th Parallel
Date: 01-31-97 (00:21)
From: STEVE WINTER
To: ALL
Subj: The happy Catholic
Conf: HOLY_BIBLE​

I guess I find it kind of amazing that, given the historical accounts of the murderous roots of the RCC, AND the blatant disregard for so much of the Bible’s commandments; that so many people can be so deceived into a blind loyalty to such a filthy, ungodly cult.

To be a happy catholic one must simply close one’s mind to historical events. One must reject most of the Bible that pertains to the new testament church (including the teachings of Peter). The RCC must simultaneously claim Peter as “infallable pope” while declaring that he disobeyed Jesus by teaching JESUS NAME baptism (Acts 2:38). They must teach that Acts 2:38 is disobediance to Matt 28:19 (rather than
the FULFILLMENT that it really was).

Fascinating stuff and saved for posterity.

Phil P

 

[William_Putnam]

BBS: The 128th Parallel
Date: 01-31-97 (00:21)
From: STEVE WINTER
To: ALL
Subj: The happy Catholic
Conf: HOLY_BIBLE​

I guess I find it kind of amazing that, given the historical accounts of the murderous roots of the RCC, AND the blatant disregard for so much of the Bible’s commandments; that so many people can be so deceived into a blind loyalty to such a filthy, ungodly cult.

To be a happy catholic one must simply close one’s mind to historical events. One must reject most of the Bible that pertains to the new testament church (including the teachings of Peter). The RCC must simultaneously claim Peter as “infallable pope” while declaring that he disobeyed Jesus by teaching JESUS NAME baptism (Acts 2:38). They must teach that Acts 2:38 is disobediance to Matt 28:19 (rather than
the FULFILLMENT that it really was).

Fascinating stuff and saved for posterity.

Phil P

I remember that!

But sadly, if you had not given the author of that piece, I would have thought it came from CARM.

…a reason I went silent in that conference until at least after the New Year.

I continue to be a “glutton for punishment.”

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

Not riches, but God.
Not honors, but God.
Not distinction, but God.
Not dignities, but God.
Not advancement, but God.
God always and in everything.

• St. Vincent Pallotti -
  .

 

[PhilVaz]

BTW, I think I have pin-pointed the year of that Walter Martin vs. Madalyn Murray-O’Hair debate:

From Wikipedia:

<< In 1962, WNBC offered Nebel more than $100,000 per year (if not a record sum paid to a radio personality, then very near it) to begin broadcasting from their station, and he accepted the offer. He continued there until 1973, when WNBC, facing sliding ratings, decided to switch to an all rock music format. >>

During the debate, they refer to O’Hair’s appearance on Johnny Carson as already having happened. This was October 12, 1972. Nebel went off WNBC in 1973 and during the debate the announcer says a few times this is “WNBC New York.” Therefore, the debate most probably took place early 1973 or late 1972. Could be wrong… need to keep listening for more clues. Nebel died 1978 so it can’t be later than that.

Phil P

 

[PhilVaz]

Sorry, I was off a few years. This debate is earlier than I thought!

Wiki << In 1945, while posted to a cryptography position in Italy, she began an affair with William J. Murray Jr., and she gave birth to a boy (William). >>

William Murray was said to be 22 on the show.

Wiki << On November 16, 1954, she gave birth to another son (Jon Garth Murray) by a different father. >>

Jon Murray was said to be 13 on the show.

That makes the show late 1967 or probably 1968 ! Earlier than I thought. That means Madalyn Murray O’Hair appeared on Johnny Carson at least twice. Once in Oct 1972, and another time before 1968 or so. Sorry.

Walter Martin vs. Madalyn Murray O’Hair MP3 (The Long John Nebel Show)

Phil P

 

[PhilVaz]

In their discussion of hell during the program…

Long John Nebel: “Now I am dealing in 1968, right here…”

BINGO. 1968. This is between 2 hr 28 min and 2 hr 29 min in the MP3.

Sorry to interrupt. Back to your regularly scheduled posting.

Phil P