Wanted to know what you all would say

[IanBoyd57]

I was raised catholic, I guess I’m still being raised catholic, but in my heart I’m not really catholic. I can believe there’s a God, a supernatural being who created us out of love, but the rest of the stuff, let me just say that your hearts our in the right places, but your brains have got to wake up. This is a quote I really like and explains how I feel quite well.

“I do understand what love is, and that is one of the reasons I can never again be a Christian. Love is not self denial. Love is not blood and suffering. Love is not murdering your son to appease your own vanity. Love is not hatred or wrath, consigning billions of people to eternal torture because they have offended your ego or disobeyed your rules. Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being.”

I am not a bad person. In fact, with my life I am doing what no one has really done before. My plan is to join the Special Forces for training, then leave them and travel to places like Somalia and other warlord run countries and work alone using stealth skills and tactics to remove the warlords from power. I have a tactical military mind and I am always seeing the angles, although none of you will have any idea what I mean by that, which is good for me because the warlords won’t see it coming either. What I’m talking about is sort of related to Splinter Cell, if that helps at all. Oh, and don’t reply talking about my career and whether it would work or not- there is no precursor or precedence to it making it very difficult to explain. The point is I am still dedicating my life to helping people who need it the most, that is poor starving enslaved people who live in fear of warlords with AK’s and such. I believe there may well be a heaven, maybe all of the bible is true, but we don’t know. My belief is that really, it shouldn’t matter. Something about being human dictates in itself how we should act, with love and compassion towards each other, because we’re all in this together. That’s all we can technically do anyway- God doesn’t need us, he’s perfect, so we can’t help him, but since he loves us, helping each other would be like helping him in the only way that we can. I guess what I’m saying finally, is that I am going to dedicate my life and spend my life trying my best to make everyone around me, especially those in need, as happy as possible, and that in itself will bring my happiness as well. If that doesn’t earn me and people like me a place in heaven by your standards, regardless of my religion and beliefs (which are that I believe there is a God, while acknowledging there might not be one, I don’t know what rules to follow other than by my heart, and what feels good and right and helps either others or myself without harming others or myself) then you must be using the wrong damn standards.

 

[Genesis315]

IanBoyd57:

“I do understand what love is, and that is one of the reasons I can never again be a Christian. Love is not self denial. Love is not blood and suffering. Love is not murdering your son to appease your own vanity. Love is not hatred or wrath, consigning billions of people to eternal torture because they have offended your ego or disobeyed your rules. Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being.”

True love is self giving and sacrifice. God sacrificed Himself on the Cross. He gave Himself to us. A husband and a wife each give themselves to one another. Parents sacrifice and give themselves to their children. Love is making yourself totally vulnerable to your loved one. God did all these things.

 

[IanBoyd57]

That’s true. I think all the stuff about God’s love for us and Jesus are true. My main point is that some of the rules and stuff, like with hell and everything else, seem somewhat off. If you are a good person, the set of morality rules you believe are correct and the God you worship shouldn’t matter. That’s all I’m saying.

 

[On_my_way]

How did God murder His son? He did no such thing. Jesus chose to die for us because Loved us. Love is blood and suffering. I would bleed and suffer for my wife, kids and any other member of my family (imediate and extended). If I had to die to save my family, so be it. That is love. Like G315 said Love is sacrifice. I 100% agree.

Sounds like you are driven more by pride then you are by love.

 

[On_my_way]

IanBoyd57:

That’s true. I think all the stuff about God’s love for us and Jesus are true. My main point is that some of the rules and stuff, like with hell and everything else, seem somewhat off. If you are a good person, the set of morality rules you believe are correct and the God you worship shouldn’t matter. That’s all I’m saying.

In whose eyes are you a good person? One cannot get to heaven on morals alone.

 

[IanBoyd57]

The son isn’t Jesus, its Isaac. You should’ve figured that out considering you’re christian. I agree that what Jesus did is ultimate love and sacrifice. Don’t get me wrong. I will admit that he (Dan Barker) is a little off on the blood and suffering part, so I don’t agree with Dan Barker (the guy who said the quote) completely, but really for the most part it explains it. I have no idea where the pride thing came from, and I can assure you that going to Somalia and other bad places of the world to bring peace and comfort to the hearts of the weak and troubled, risking my life, and giving away the life of ease and comfort I could’ve lived easily in America just because I happened to be born here to risk and most likely receive a grisly death, cold and alone at the hands of evil men, very far from home, is an act of love.

More stuff- If we are offered eternal paradise as a reward for being good, isn’t that just admitting that we can be bribed? Shouldn’t we do things for others out of love for them, not desire for eternal pleasure for ourselves?

If a man put a gun on you and made you do something (anything, not necessarily evil or good) and you did it because you were sufficiently scared of death that you were willing to comply, then you do not deserve credit for doing the thing itself- you did not do it because you wanted to, or because you thought you should, you did it because you feared death. Likewise, if we are good and follow God’s laws and fear God like we’re supposed to because we fear hell, is it not the same thing? Now, you can say that you do them because it is good to do them, but I agree with you exactly. But I say God shouldn’t have to make rules or threats- we should do things on their own merit, instead of making an ultimate reward punishment system to convince people to fall in. See where I’m going? By the way, it is fundamentally true that it is possible to counter my arguments in some way because, philosophically, I agree with you guys in most ways- I’m a good person too, and I love and care for everyone around me. So poking holes in my arguments won’t get us very far. Er, wow, I typed more than I meant but I guess that’s okay. So yea. I guess this is a dumb way to end a post.

EDIT: Someone posted while I typed this. Sigh. I like what you said though, exactly what I’m getting at.

“One cannot get to heaven on morals alone.”

I take that to mean good deeds and living a good life. So you’re saying that living a good moral caring loving life won’t get me to heaven.

Well that’s the damn problem!

 

[carol_marie]

IanBoyd 57,

You said that it wasn’t Jesus - it was Isaac you were talking about when you said Love wasn’t murdering your son? God would not have allowed Abraham to kill his son - he wanted to test his faith (and show Abraham himself what great faith he had) but in the end God provided the sacrifice (the lamb) in place of Isaac. It was to foreshadow Jesus - the lamb that God provided to take away OUR sins.

I know you said you’ve grown up Catholic but I’m wondering how much you’ve actually studied regarding our faith? I would encourage you to read & learn what the Chruch teaches - many people find it so easy to walk away because they are totally clueless about what they are leaving behind.

God Bless,
CM

P.S. I could NEVER be good enough to get to heaven by myself. It’s by God’s grace 100% that I will (hopefully) go to heaven - not by anything I’ve done. My desire to do good is in response to that grace I’ve been given - it’s because I love God, I want to obey Him - just as he requires. And aren’t I so thankful that when I fall short and ask for His forgiveness, he forgives me? That is LOVE.

 

[IanBoyd57]

I agree, that forgiveness is love. I’m still with most of the catholic ideals. Like I said, your hearts are in the right places. I think the point Dan Barker is trying to make (remember that I quoted him, I didn’t make this up) is that a loving God wouldn’t ask someone to kill their son, or that killing your son wouldn’t show love, or something like that. Those parts weren’t the part that captured my interest. What got my attention was that “love is not self denial, hatred or wrath, consigning billions of people to eternal torture because they have offended your ego or disobeyed your rules, or obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being.” The other parts are up for interpretation and may be off, but I think this part shows what I feel. It shouldn’t be about following rules and stuff like that, it should be about love. Loving each other, and God if you believe in him. Not about specific rules that differ between religions. Hmm, I may have put my finger on it. See, every religion says its wrong to kill. You shouldn’t steal. Be nice to people. Help people in need. However, all the religions differ in other rules- how many wives you can have, gay marriage, stuff like that. I just don’t think we know that the catholic version of morality is totally right. I feel like most of it is, don’t get me wrong. But a lot of the stuff that doesn’t hurt anyone else or harm anything should be up to us. Some things the catholic church says are wrong I don’t agree with. I don’t know, its late and I’m tired, my stomach hurts, I’m just gonna go to bed. Oh, by the way, Carol Marie- that was the most intelligent response I’ve got so far. Thank you.

 

[CatholicCid]

I guess what I’m saying finally, is that I am going to dedicate my life and spend my life trying my best to make everyone around me, especially those in need, as happy as possible, and that in itself will bring my happiness as well.

Just out of curiosity, you said you would remove the warlords… Now, I’d have to be wondering as of how… With the training you speak of, it most likely seems like you would kill them…
And if that was the way, wouldn’t that make them sad? And their families?
What about the turmoil following their lose of leadership of who should take control…
ect…

 

[MelissaMarie]

IanBoyd57:

What got my attention was that “love is not self denial, hatred or wrath, consigning billions of people to eternal torture because they have offended your ego or disobeyed your rules, or obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being.” The other parts are up for interpretation and may be off, but I think this part shows what I feel. It shouldn’t be about following rules and stuff like that, it should be about love.

I just wanted to address one part of your post (for now, anyways). You seem to be uncomfortable with the idea of a God who would send countless souls to hell, an eternity of torment, for “disobeying rules,” many of which you may or may not agree with.

We have to remember that Hell exists as a result of our free will. God gave us our free will, the ability to do as we choose, and this is part of what makes us uniquely human. I wager you would agree with me on this–even Dan Barker appears to, as he says that true love only exists when freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being. Since God created us in his image to love Him and to love one another, He therefore had to give us a free will. If we didn’t have a free will, we wouldn’t be able to choose to love God–it would all be robotic and automated or something else–not human love.

The main point is, if we have the will to love, we also have the will to choose not to love. God’s will for us is to love Him and serve Him in this world so that we can be truly happy and experience true love in its highest form in the next world. All loves on this world are only a shadow of the heavenly love we will hopefully one day experience. All of the "rules’ you refer to are simply God’s way of pointing us in the right direction, of showing us what is really the loving thing to do (i.e., not killing, not stealing, helping one another). Some of the rules you may not agree with simply because you haven’t studied them or been shown how they are meant to help us have more love-filled lives (i.e., contraception, gay marriages). I know that this was the case for me–many of the things in the church I did not agree with I later came to understand through study and prayer, and by reading and talking to people who could explain things in ways that made sense to me, something I was not exposed to in religious education classes.

So, since we all have a free will, we can freely choose not to live according to God’s will, so much so that we can freely choose Hell over Heaven as a result of our own actions. Without a free will, there would be no need for Hell. In fact, Satan too was once an angel, the highest of the angels, who freely chose to turn his back on God and thus chose Hell.

 

[Genesis315]

Just a thought on Hell:

Hell is a product of free-will. We can choose God or not-God. If we reject God, we end up in Hell.

Hell is the complete absense of God. God is all good and all love. Imagine a world with absolutely no good or love at all. That world would be horrible beyond imagine–it would be Hell.

 

[fix]

On my way:

Originally Posted by IanBoyd57

               *That's true. I think all the stuff about God's love for us and Jesus are true. My main point is that some of the rules and stuff, like with hell and everything else, seem somewhat off. If you are a good person, the set of morality rules you believe are correct and the God you worship shouldn't matter. That's all I'm saying.*

In whose eyes are you a good person? One cannot get to heaven on morals alone.

How does one determine if one is good? How does one determine what good is or what evil is?

 

[mercygate]

IanBoyd57:

I. . . let me just say that your hearts our in the right places, but your brains have got to wake up.

Tell that to Augustine, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory Nazianzen, Basil the Great, Aquinas, Bonaventure, Anselm, Charles Borromeo . . . The list goes on for weeks.

Your brain may have “wakened up” but you have not yet exercised it in the pursuit of Truth if this silly misrepresentation of Christian doctrine has shaken your faith. Before you join the special forces for political change, become a Truth Warrior – the training is even harder.

And as for being a good person – by what standard? The standard of human nature? OK. But for human beings that is only the beginning. We are called to goodness on the supernatural plane – and that requires grace from God.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

IanBoyd57:

I take that to mean good deeds and living a good life. So you’re saying that living a good moral caring loving life won’t get me to heaven.

Well that’s the damn problem!

See what you think about this. I think it contains part of what you’re talking about, maybe on both sides.

Sorry I haven’t caught up reading the other posts if this is redundant. I’m getting pressure to get off the computer.
James 2:

8 However, if you fulfill the royal 4 law according to the scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one particular, has become guilty in respect to all of it. 11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not kill.” Even if you do not commit adultery but kill, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom. 5
13 For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment. 14 6 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? 17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. 20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” 24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? 26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Often there are arguments between Catholics and Protestants, that Protestants say one is saved by faith alone, and Catholics say you must also do good deeds.

From your post, I think you’re asking what about a life of good deeds? Doesn’t that count for something – or do you just have to believe all the right things? Well in this passage it seems to say that faith is either made perfect by the deeds, or that it is actually demonstrated by the deeds. That makes me think that maybe faith can actually be constituted of deeds, but many Catholics are reluctant to take that absolute an interpretation of that passage.

One reason they might not is that once Christ said, “nobody gets to the Father except through me.” Some take that to mean we have to be Fully Assenting Catholics and receive the Eucharist and other sacraments regularly. Others think it means you have to devote your life to service of one another, like what you’re talking about.

None of us are better or worse. Just be careful and learn the lingo, because people have been brought up with so many different ideas, and so many have both good and bad baggage that when 100 people are viewing your post, it’s going to strike some one way and others another.

This forum might be unprecedented in the number and zeal of Catholics every assembled where they can interactively speak. We’re all learning. If you feel persecuted by “orthodox” Catholics because your beliefs are not yet in line or maybe you’re a bit stubborn (orthodox lingo: that means you’re “heretical” or possibly just “heterodox”) maybe you want to stop by the cafeteria Catholics guild. It’s a long thread, so don’t worry about reading them all before posting.

Hopefully I’ll get back soon because you and others raised more points I’d like to address.

Alan

 

[wcknight]

*"I take that to mean good deeds and living a good life. So you’re saying that living a good moral caring loving life won’t get me to heaven.

Well that’s the damn problem! "*
Well, actually that is the solution. Jesus came down here precisely to lead folks to do exactly that. He wants us to lead good clean moral caring lives. BUT He also wants us to know that God cares for us, so much so that He sent Jesus to die for our sins.

• It’s great that you want to help solve the worlds problem, so do many of us. BUT just maybe playing God and assassinating dictators is not the way to do it. Removing a dictator does not instantly create a much better situation. We have seen that on the former Yugoslavia and now in Iraq.*

In Yugoslavia, the death of Tito led to mass murder in Croatia and Albania. The removal of Saddam in Iraq could lead to civil war. Maybe long term things could be better, but without some real planning and without strong leadership to take over the vacuum, very often many innocent folks die as a result of a toppled tyrant.
We can not be judge, jury, and executioner, that is God’s role (or at best the UN’s). One assasination can not instantly restore sanity and stability to a country. Very often anarchy is the immediate result of a toppled dictatorship. Is it worth it ? ask the 100,000+ civilian Iraqis who have died as a result of the US takeover.
Saddam was a horrible dictator, but was his removal worth almost 2000 americans and 100,000 Iraqis ???

 

[felra]

IanBoyd57:

This is a quote I really like and explains how I feel quite well.

“I do understand what love is, and that is one of the reasons I can never again be a Christian. Love is not self denial. Love is not blood and suffering. Love is not murdering your son to appease your own vanity. Love is not hatred or wrath, consigning billions of people to eternal torture because they have offended your ego or disobeyed your rules. Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being.”

I realize that the above quote captures what you feel, but here is what someone who knew Jesus intimately had to say about his understanding and experience of God’s love:

****“****If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing. For we know partially and we prophesy partially, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things. At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known. So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.” (**1 Corinthians, *Chapter 1: 1-13) ***

 

[maryalene]

God is who He is. Even if the idea of a God who tests his people by asking them to kill their sons doesn’t fit our image of the ideal, benevolent God, that doesn’t change who God is. Also, just as it might be tempting to think that it doesn’t matter what god you worship so long as live a good life, that doesn’t change God’s opinion on the matter. I don’t think I am saying this very well, but what I am trying to get at is that we can’t change God to fit our vision of the perfect God. He molds us; we can’t mold him. Best wishes on your journey.

 

[On_my_way]

fix:

How does one determine if one is good? How does one determine what good is or what evil is?

My question was who determines who is a good person? If I live a good life and have good morals how does that assure me of a place in heaven? There may only be one person who determines if one is good and what good and evil is. So I put my life in His hands.

I can’t determine who is good, because that is not my place to say who is and who isn’t.

Poster also said that he cannot be a Christian ever again. Christian is a follower of Christ teachings, right. In the Bible it’s says , “If you deny me , you deny the One who sent me.” Hello!!!WTBS, he is denying Christ and still thinks he is a good person and will get to heaven. Come on people, if that was true there would be no room for the rest of us when we pass away.

 

[felra]

My question was who determines who is a good person? If I live a good life and have good morals how does that assure me of a place in heaven? There may only be one person who determines if one is good and what good and evil is. So I put my life in His hands.

“And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.” …And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, “Then who can be saved?” Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.” (Mark 10: 17-18, 26-27)

I can’t determine who is good, because that is not my place to say who is and who isn’t.

“You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear goodfruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits. (Matthew 7: 16-18, 19, 20)

 

[On_my_way]

felra:

“And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.” …And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, “Then who can be saved?” Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.” (Mark 10: 17-18, 26-27)

Thank you for making my statement valid.

“You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear goodfruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits. (Matthew 7: 16-18, 19, 20)

“One mans rubbish is another mans treasure.” What I might consider good, He might consider bad and what I consider bad He might consider good. It is not me to judge what is good and what is bad. Only God determines that. A lot of people do good works, but do they do it with the intent of recieving in the end. I am not sure if I will be in Heaven, but does that stop me from doing for other people. No it doesn’t. I’m with CCD and RCIA, and if the work I do helps someone get to heaven and by any chance I don’t make it, atleast I know that what I did helped someone get there. That is what fruits are. The tree will only be as good as the people who feed from it. If the fruits are good and no one feeds of it, then what good is it.