Wanting childless marriage, considering leaving Church over it

[blujazz25]

You have unfinished issues with your dad growing up.

IMO, this is not a good reason not to be open to life in marriage, I am sorry but this is sounding a little too selfish for me. Resolve your past issues with a therapist (preferably a Catholic one) and go from there, if you do not want to have kids, then be in single blessedness or be in a congregation.

Marriage entails husband and wife to give each other fully, if you are just wanting to fulfill what you want out of the marriage then you should not even enter the sacrament. Agape love is a life giving sacrifice, that is why St. Paul reminds husband and wives to love and respect each other just as Christ did for the church…its life giving (sacraments) and He sacrificed Himself for the Bride (the Church). Plus its part of the marriage vows, “are you open to the blessing of Life that God will grant you and will you bring up children in the ways and teachings of the Church?” saying yes and not fulfilling is already grounds for annulment because you do not want to fulfill your vows in the first place, and the cycle goes on for you, its not fair for your partner.

There is a reason why the Church’s teaching on vocation calls is being bashed today is because we believe that each vocation has its own set of blessings and ways but that entails discipline and prayer. I am sure the nuns and the brothers have their own fair share of struggling after they entered, they’re human after all and humans need companionship.

My brother had a dark past with our dad but that did not stop him from getting married and wanting to have kids and treating them better that how he was treated growing up, unfortunately the marriage ended and it s not because of abuse but because of dishonesty on her part.

 

[heidi_storage]

I never thought I’d recommend a Cracked article in this context, but the author, like you, grew up in a pretty messed-up home (and had a pretty messed-up adult life, for quite a long while). He and his family are doing okay. The page has crude language and is, obviously, NOT professional advice, but you might enjoy it.

cracked.com/article_19010_5-ways-to-avoid-your-terrible-parents-mistakes.html

The most disturbing part of your post was when you said you should have been aborted. WRONG. You are a precious, valuable human being. I can’t tell you why you suffered what you did, particularly, but in this world broken by sin a whole lot of misery has been inflicted upon the helpless. Please seek help if you ever consider hurting yourself.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

…

But, I don’t think I’m ever going to see children, having children, and parenting in the way the Church wants me to.

My father was a heavy drinker and physically violent to me, my siblings, and my mom.

He received a cat-of-nine-tails as birthday present and used it to discipline me and my brother. Perhaps that may find favor with some folks who think that children have no ‘fear of God’ in them anymore.

I remember how mouthy my brother was, how he always had to have the last word. Why couldn’t he just keep his mouth shut like I was able to?

He now has high pitch hearing loss in one ear from having his head slammed into a wall.

I remember a lot of fights between my dad and my mom. Loud, angry affairs that would go on all night while trying to sleep.

The scariest times where when she would get in the car and leave. Usually she would come back. But one time my dad got so angry he jumped on the hood of the car and smashed the windshield in while she was leaving.

He stayed up all night. I did too, I asked him when’s mom coming home. His response: “Your mom is crazy now to back to bed before beat the ---- out of you.”

I’m not a parent, but I would think no matter how angry you are at your spouse, one should have enough empathy for a 7 year old son who is just scared and misses his mom.

Fortunately, that episode had a happy ending, The police came and picked me and my siblings up that morning. I later learned this was because my dad called my mom and threatened to shoot us if she didn’t come home.

But…I didn’t want for anything materially. We had a nice house, a boat, a pool, had vacations. I have two graduate degrees and still will probably never make enough to provide for a family as well as I had it, materially.

My parents divorced when I was 12 (they got an annulment), and things got better after that, when we went to stay with my mom. My dad had a heart attacked and died about 5 years later. Christ forgive me, but I can’t say that I miss him.

I put a good amount of effort into school and college, won a full ride to law school, graduated in the top 10 percent of my class. Then coming out of school in Michigan, I couldn’t find a job.

The job I found was at a small firm that paid me less than my fiancee was making as a teacher, I couldn’t live up to the firm’s expectations, and I quit, not under the best of circumstances. Fiancee and I broke up soon after that.

That’s when I really had my first crisis of faith. I came to see that I really should have been aborted. Indeed, when I looked around at thousands of my fellow college graduated who managed to get out onto the job market in the Midwest in the early 2000s, who needed jobs that weren’t there. I feel all of us really should have been aborted.

I’m better now, in some ways. I have a decent job in a new state that I am happy with. I’m still tormented by my situation, though. I know from bitter experience that the “happy family/kids are joy” way of thinking is a delusion that I cannot indulge. I don’t have the hubris to think that I could do a better job than my parents. I hope I don’t have the sadistic temper of my father, but I know I don’t have the patience, He raised us like he was raised. It seems like the deadly sin of Pride to think that I can break the cycle. Better to just end the chain now by remaining childless. That way it ends; it ends with me. By making sure there is no next generation, I would be better than him by making sure the pathology doesn’t continue for another generation.

This is especially the case when I know I will never make enough to give any kids all that I had. That’s not supposed to happen in America, where each generation should do better than the next. Sure, I suppose the pious response is “oh you might not be able to provide as much materially, but you’ll provide for them better emotionally.”

I sincerely doubt anyone truly believes that.

Sometimes, I can’t help but think that people have kids either 1) on accident, 2) out of a sense of duty, or 3) because they need someone smaller and weaker than themselves to put down and hurt.

Still, I hope I can fall in love with someone and marry, and find happiness, love, and security in a relationship as an adult that I never really had as a kid. But, if that means being obliged to raise a family, it’s not worth it to me. To me, families are capsules of conflict, paid, and fear. I want to be part of a couple, but not a family.

I wish there was some kind of dispensation I could get for a preemptive vasectomy just to take care of this, once and for all. But from my readings, that doesn’t look like that’s possible. Do I have to choose between the misery of family life of the misery of lifelong celibacy, and to continue to seethe with hate and anger toward my dad who put me in this situation? If only he could have made an appropriate choice and not had me, I wouldn’t be in this situation.

Anyway, I guess that’s all I have to say. Happy to hear anyone’s thoughts on the matter, especially if they go beyond the trope of “We all have our crosses to bear so just suck it up and deal with it.”

Thanks

At this point any sort of marriage should be the last thing on your mind. Childless or not. For marrying someone else is a potential trigger for you. You need to work on you before you can even entertain these other issues.

Sorry to sound like Oprah, but you need to fix some things before you make that decision with another person that affects both of you forever.

 

[GEddie]

Dear OP:

What you have gone through has tainted your whole view of life; not just the abuse you have endured, but your professional disappointments.

A family is really a secondary issue at this stage. If your psyche remains unhealed, any kind of female relationship will be a disappointment, whether or not children emerge from it.

Some posters have said that “unless you have children, your abuser has won.” That is not per se the case and is IMO the wrong way to approach one’s life. Children are up to the will of God, not a goal in themselves.

Leaving the Church as you suggested in your header is not a solution because you would be turning back on the law of God, not a religious rubric.

Go to a priest you trust for counsel. They can in all likelihood refer you to someone with the specialized training to untangle your life.

And life itself is worth the trouble!

PS. You remarked that those of your age group who got caught in our deteriorating economy, and would be unable to outdo their fathers economically, would be better off not alive. But the American fairy tale of everybody doing better than prior generations was an historic exception, it had to flatten out sometime snd it’s doing so now. No reason to reject being alive.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[rayne89]

It seems your traumatic childhood has left you with deep wounds. Your worth has nothing to do with a paycheck or degree of education or material success. Absolutely not one thing to do with that. You are a child of God. My husband comes from a very abusive childhood where he was actually told his father wanted him aborted. He did not have the confidence to seek a higher education, but he is very skilled at his trade. And he is a good father, a loving and fun dad. Perfect? No, and he still struggles. He’s in therapy and on antidepressants. I grew up with a mom who has mental illness, my husband and I were both “unplanned” children. I have heart defects that seriously effect my health. We have one beautiful,healthy,amazing 19 year old.So from two broken, damaged people came one amazing young lady.
You can’t heal your pain through material things, acedemic achievement or career success. That’s like if you have a hole in your floor and you lay a piece of board over it, the hole is still there. You need to know you are a gift to this world, God needed you here in this moment in time, you are part of his plan and if you reject his plan the world will be poorer for it. You are irreplaceable, your worth immeasurable. You did not end up at a university that required you to be at church by accident. God is reaching out to his beloved suffering child, just grab his hand and let him lead you. I will be praying for you.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Surely you can remember enough to understand what hurts and what doesn’t.
That’s how you know what NOT to do. It sounds like your father tried to kill you, physically and spiritually. Not having a family, not moving into the future means he wins. He’s killed you.

You are already a product of millennia of survivors.
He chose his behaviour. He chose to dishonor all those who came before him by simply doing whatever he felt like doing.
You are already better than you father because you are thinking about the situation and are considering what is best.

Your father clearly did not do that. He just raged on without a thought about what it was doing to you, or you Mum, or anyone. He was selfish and violent and deeply flawed. You are already a very much better person that he was.

You were a victim as a child. No doubt about that.
You can chose to remain a victim as an adult, or you can chose to not
be a victim as an adult.
Don’t let your father chose your life, or your behavior. That’s your job. He failed his job.
You may or may not have children, and that is for God to chose. But do not let your father make decisions about your life. What do they say? Living well is the best revenge.

I’m just saying that there is more than one way to look at this.

Also, I might add that until you are a father, you will never know how deeply you can love. You have that capacity.
And I’m sure there will be a wife out there waiting for you that can and will live and learn beside you (God willing).

You are in my prayers.

Beautiful!

The culture of death means that death is made to be the cultural objective or purpose by portraying death as the desirable or “easy” option.

It takes heroic courage to oppose the imposition of this death-dealing culture on humanity.

It should be seen for what it is, however, a spiritual cancer that can and ought to be opposed to our dying breath - which, as the Resurrection of Jesus has shown, will turn out to be the moment of final victory. Victory snatched from the jaws of defeat at the moment when all seemed lost.

Jesus never said it would be easy. It is the death proponents who claim it should be and because it isn’t we should just succumb and make it easy for them to deal the final blow. Never give up! :knight1:

 

[masondoggy]

I just want you to know that not every child that is abused grows up to abuse their own children. My husband grew up in an abusive home (by both parents, but mostly his dad) and his dad had a very explosive temper much like you describe in your dad. By the time I met him, he had a lot of pain to work through. He eventually cut off contact with his dad and over a long period of time, he was able to heal and find peace. And by the time we had kids, he had come to the point where he could point out the good qualities in his dad and the bad qualities, and the qualities that he didn’t want to repeat as a father. He has been an excellent father. His kids adore him and even though DH has the potential to have the same explosive temper as his dad, he made the decision to learn to control it as an adult and he has never lost control with his kids. Being a good parent is a CHOICE. Your father made a choice to be a jerk. It’s not something that he was born with and couldn’t help. He chose to fail as a father. Just as DH’s dad chose to beat his kids and tear them down with words. DH CHOSE to not be the kind of dad his father was.

Do I think you’re ready to be a parent right now? Probably not. You need to be in some intense therapy, maybe with some antidepressants, to work through your demons. But it IS possible to come out on the other side a whole man who has found peace. And at that point, you can re-evaluate whether you can/should have kids or not. Heal first, decide later.

You are in my prayers.

 

[Xantippe]

I agree with the previous poster who suggested counseling. It is so important to understand that people who abuse children (either mentally, physically, or emotionally) often are seriously mentally ill. It is not hubris to believe that you would be a better parent; psychologically speaking, it isn’t the material goods that make an individual a good parent, it is the love and support that one gives for his or her child. If you were to do research on which kids are the most successful, it does not come down to material goods. Obviously, SES plays an important role in the types of opportunities that one may have access to, however, this is not the biggest predictor of wellbeing. Anyway, I definitely think it would be prudent to seek therapy; even though you may not think it will help or you’ve already gone before, finding a good therapist can help make sense of past traumatic experiences.

One of our friends had a father who was terrible in many, many, many ways.

Our friend is an at least average to above average dad.

One doesn’t have to repeat one’s childhood with one’s children.

Even Protestant therapists could be of use to you if they are appropriately credentialed, reputable, and recommended by your Catholic pastor. (If your pastor is at all conscientious, he ought to know which local therapists are any good.)

By the way, if I were you, I’d be just as or even more concerned about being a terrible spouse as being a terrible father.

Best wishes!

 

[masondoggy]

Another thing…I think that most parents who abuse their kids are people who generally don’t care about being good parents. It’s just not something that’s important to them. I think the fact that you are willing to go as far as to deliberately not have kids because you are concerned about your abilities to be a good parent shows that you DO have the qualities to be a good dad. You CARE. You WANT to do right by your kids. That speaks volumes, it really does. Give yourself some credit here.

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote: “Still, I hope I can fall in love with someone and marry, and find happiness, love, and security in a relationship as an adult that I never really had as a kid.”

It is normal to look for happiness, love, and security, yet these have various definitions.

Happiness is an inner state of contentment which is a mental state. Are you are thinking of “satisfaction” with experiences instead?

Catholic matrimony is a joining and the love expressed as charity. Each of the individuals must live a charitable life. Is that what you are seeking or do you mean “an intense feeling of deep affection” or “sexual attachment” without consideration of charity?

Security “being free from danger or threat” is implied in a lifelong commitment of marriage and would exist where charity is the mutual rule. (Yet using another meaning of security, we don’t know how long someone will live of if both will actually continue in the marriage.)

 

[Joe_5859]

Another question. Where can one find these wonderful Catholic women who would be eager to help a spouse (or prospective spouse) “work through” his childhood baggage?

Especially if that “baggage” consists of a reluctance to even consider children?

Most more devout women I know see having children as the whole point of marriage, and expect for any prospective suitor to have his ‘stuff’ together as far as that is concerned before even beginning a relationship.

And from their point of view, I can’t really blame them for that.

Welcome, Charlie!

I do think it is important to get as much of your “stuff” together before entering into a romantic relationship (and eventually marriage). Obviously, none of us are perfect, so we will never have all of our stuff together prior to marriage. But every hour of work you do before is like one hundred hours of work after. Whatever you do on the front end will be of great benefit in the long run.

You can from a very broken family. I know that I cannot 100% relate to that. My father has his faults and there are plenty of things that he did that I actively want to avoid doing, but nothing close to abuse.

It may sound trite, but I think it is well worth pondering the power of forgiveness to heal. I’ve heard it said that holding onto anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other guy to suffer from it. Yet, we only make ourselves suffer all the more. I know it’s far, far easier to say than it is to do, but I would encourage you to be open to seeing forgiveness, even of your father, as something to work towards. And it’s not because he deserves your forgiveness. It’s because you deserve to be free from being under his poisonous influence. You’ll need to find some way to let it go. As others have suggested, this is where therapy can be a great help.

I’m just a few years older, but I just want to let you know that there are families out there that are happy. I know I’m not perfect and I have made my share of parenting blunders. But I love my family and they love me. And we’re striving together in holiness. My daughter (who is seven) has taken to requesting reading from the Bible every night for her bedtime story (without us even prompting her to do so). My son has special needs, but he is a huge source of joy for us all, even amidst the adversity.

I’m not trying to brag and I don’t want to make you feel bad. It just seemed like you had given up on the possibility that there were any good families out there. I want to assure you that there are.

God bless. I will pray for you. Please pray for me, too.

 

[PennyinCanada]

When you look at what the Church asks of us in married life, it is frightening and challenging for all of us. That’s why we depend on his grace. How could we manage without it?

If we had a child in grade 1 who was doing pretty well and gave him a grade 5 math test, he would say it was too hard for him. Of course it is. You know a teacher wouldn’t expect him to be able to do it either. But, one day at a time, going to school, doing homework, that day comes when he takes that grade 5 test and passes it. He continues to move forward, taking on more challenging things. Right now, you are in grade 1 looking at a grade 5 test and saying it’s too hard. Yes it is. Jesus is your teacher and mine. Walk with him every day, learn from him. Inch by inch His light will come in and push the darkness out. Do your homework, go to class. Let Jesus be your teacher. You don’t know, if you start today, where you’ll be a year from now, or 5 years from now. Have hope that life gets better and you can get stronger. Stronger in your ability to love, forgive, encourage, walk in grace. Things that parents try to teach their children. Start today.

 

[Sarcelle]

Dear OP:

What you have gone through has tainted your whole view of life; not just the abuse you have endured, but your professional disappointments.

A family is really a secondary issue at this stage. If your psyche remains unhealed, any kind of female relationship will be a disappointment, whether or not children emerge from it.

Some posters have said that “unless you have children, your abuser has won.” That is not per se the case and is IMO the wrong way to approach one’s life. Children are up to the will of God, not a goal in themselves.

Leaving the Church as you suggested in your header is not a solution because you would be turning back on the law of God, not a religious rubric.

Go to a priest you trust for counsel. They can in all likelihood refer you to someone with the specialized training to untangle your life.

And life itself is worth the trouble!

PS. You remarked that those of your age group who got caught in our deteriorating economy, and would be unable to outdo their fathers economically, would be better off not alive. But the American fairy tale of everybody doing better than prior generations was an historic exception, it had to flatten out sometime snd it’s doing so now. No reason to reject being alive.

ICXC NIKA.

I too was troubled about the post saying that unless you have a wife and children, your father has won.

No, no, no.

My father was traumatized by his upbringing and let me say his issues, as hard as he tries not to let them control him, has gotten in the way of how he dealt with his wife and children.

A marriage and kids are not markers of victory over a dark past. They shouldn’t be.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I think the OP is really jumping the gun on some of these things. If he is concerned about abusing a child then a spouse would also be at risk. Also, the thought of mutilating oneself (vasectomy) seems to be an extension of the abuse still manifesting itself. I think some can be affected by abuse long after the threat is gone. Denying children can be saying a couple of things. 1) that the abuser is still in control of your life and decisions. 2) That you wish you had never been born as well.

These are serious issues and the OP should not be debating marriage, childbearing, or leaving the church until they have received help for their problems.

This also needs to be the OPs responsibility because many many women will flock to a hurting person.

 

[Sarcelle]

I think the OP is really jumping the gun on some of these things. If he is concerned about abusing a child then a spouse would also be at risk. Also, the thought of mutilating oneself (vasectomy) seems to be an extension of the abuse still manifesting itself. I think some can be affected by abuse long after the threat is gone. Denying children can be saying a couple of things. 1) that the abuser is still in control of your life and decisions. 2) That you wish you had never been born as well.

These are serious issues and the OP should not be debating marriage, childbearing, or leaving the church until they have received help for their problems.

This also needs to be the OPs responsibility because many many women will flock to a hurting person.

Right.

The OP should focus on healing, which surely will.take time.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

I am so sorry for the traumatic childhood that you had, and that you still continue to suffer from. I hope very much that you are able to find healing and peace eventually. First, I would second everyone’s recommendation that you find an excellent psychologist to help you work through the wounds of your past. Look for one with training and experience specifically in this area.

I just wanted to address this comment specifically. You said

This is especially the case when I know I will never make enough to give any kids all that I had. That’s not supposed to happen in America, where each generation should do better than the next. Sure, I suppose the pious response is “oh you might not be able to provide as much materially, but you’ll provide for them better emotionally.”

I sincerely doubt anyone truly believes that.

I absolutely truly believe that. My parents were pretty poor, but we were very happy. I would never trade my childhood, and never felt that I missed out because we didn’t have all the material things that other families have. Don’t buy into the myth that you have to be wealthy, or wealthier than your parents to have a happy family. Strong families are everything; money doesn’t mean too terribly much in the end.

Perhaps it would help you to become friends with some good Catholic couples who have strong marriages and happy families. It sounds like you need someone like that for support and for a role model.

If you want to be a good father, I have no doubt that you can do so. Concentrate on healing first, and stay close to our Lord and the sacraments. Best of luck to you!

 

[manualman]

Another question. Where can one find these wonderful Catholic women who would be eager to help a spouse (or prospective spouse) “work through” his childhood baggage?

You shouldn’t marry until you are firmly sure that this is no longer what you want from a wife. If you ignore me on this, you WILL have a disastrous marriage for both of you.

You will be ready to marry when your goal is to give yourself in service to her rather than to receive her lifelong service and suffering to help you. But you can’t do that for as long as hopelessness and bitterness are your framework for viewing families.

I encourage you to refrain from the vasectomy for now, at least. If you aren’t marrying, you have no real need for it yet from either a catholic or a protestant viewpoint. But do try to get help for your anger and hurt. It’s holding you back from the best things in life. Things may not always look the same as they do right now. Why make an irrevocable decision if the motivation for it might be passing?

 

[Xantippe]

You shouldn’t marry until you are firmly sure that this is no longer what you want from a wife. If you ignore me on this, you WILL have a disastrous marriage for both of you.

You will be ready to marry when your goal is to give yourself in service to her rather than to receive her lifelong service and suffering to help you. But you can’t do that for as long as hopelessness and bitterness are your framework for viewing families.

**Amen!

A wife is not a therapist.

**

I encourage you to refrain from the vasectomy for now, at least. If you aren’t marrying, you have no real need for it yet from either a catholic or a protestant viewpoint. But do try to get help for your anger and hurt. It’s holding you back from the best things in life. Things may not always look the same as they do right now. Why make an irrevocable decision if the motivation for it might be passing?

It’s not totally and inevitably irrevocable, but why go through all the agony of doing it and undoing it?

Anyway, a lot of good women are going to walk right on by a man who is already sterilized. Doing that radically reduces your dating pool.

 

[CharlieDoe]

It’s not totally and inevitably irrevocable, but why go through all the agony of doing it and undoing it?

Anyway, a lot of good women are going to walk right on by a man who is already sterilized. Doing that radically reduces your dating pool.

I haven’t, of course, done anything yet, but until/unless I have a change of heart on this issue I’m not going to start a relationship with someone who is committed to having kids. Yes, that drastically reduces my dating pool, but I’d rather be alone than with someone who is not right for me. I’ve learned that lesson.

Thank you all for your comments. I called the counseling services office of my local diocese and they gave me some numbers for some therapists in my general area. I’ll have to make some calls to see which have late evening or Saturday appointments, and will be making those soon.

Let me also just say that I’ve been in relationships and never engaged in any violence towards any of my previous partners. I’m not a tough guy. In fact, my ex-fiancee and my last girlfriend could probably have beaten me up.

Thanks again.

 

[Sarcelle]

I haven’t, of course, done anything yet, but until/unless I have a change of heart on this issue I’m not going to start a relationship with someone who is committed to having kids. Yes, that drastically reduces my dating pool, but I’d rather be alone than with someone who is not right for me. I’ve learned that lesson.

Thank you all for your comments. I called the counseling services office of my local diocese and they gave me some numbers for some therapists in my general area. I’ll have to make some calls to see which have late evening or Saturday appointments, and will be making those soon.

Let me also just say that I’ve been in relationships and never engaged in any violence towards any of my previous partners. I’m not a tough guy. In fact, my ex-fiancee and my last girlfriend could probably have beaten me up.

Thanks again.

The fact that you did not continue the cycle of violence perpetuated by your father is a victory on your part.

This is a sign that you’re stepping in the right direction and there is hope that you can overcome your past.

Meanwhile keep praying and asking others to pray for you. Supernatural grace.really helps.

As Padre Pio once.said, leave the past to God’s mercy and the future to God’s providence. One step at a time