Wanting childless marriage, considering leaving Church over it

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I don’t really have any answers, and having left the church as a teenager I don’t really have the same problem about the church’s views on contraception, etc, but as someone who has been through some very similar circumstances, I just wanted to tell you, Charlie, that you’re not alone. You aren’t worthless. You have every right to be here, just like everyone else. What happened wasn’t your fault, even if you have to suffer some consequences from it. It’s hard. You have every right to be angry and to feel what you feel.

If one or both of your parents were sort of monstrous, it’s really hard to get over the idea that you carry a part of that taint in yourself. I’m scared of having kids for the same reasons you are. I often feel like if there’s even a little bit of that in me, it’s not worth the risk of inflicting it forward onto some poor kid. I’m also shy of committed relationships for the same reason. Things only started getting better for me personally when I embraced the idea that I was allowed to have feelings about what happened in my family growing up and that the normal emotional response to that actually is being angry about it. Acknowledging that has helped me come to understand that those feelings can be dealt with in constructive ways and they don’t have to become behavior.

I don’t know what the best decision for you regarding the kid situation is, but maybe don’t beat yourself up about it so much right now. It hasn’t happened yet. It may never happen. Maybe the person you fall in love with one day will be completely sterile, who knows? And if it does happen, cross that bridge when it comes. Seek out resources to help you cope. Try to have faith in yourself that you don’t have to repeat history if you don’t want to. It’s cold comfort right now, I know. I don’t really pray, but you have my sincere best wishes that it works out for you for the best.
 
OP here with an update on where I’m at with all this.

I did meet with the pastor at the local Episcopal parish. Very friendly young guy, maybe only slightly older than myself, sympathetic to my situation, even took me to lunch, said he’d love to have me come over but not to feel I need to be in any rush to do. I attended a few services, and felt an awful lot like what I’ve been used to.

I gave it some thought and prayer, and I’m not going to cross over just yet. The parish I go to is rather ‘mellow’, in that the pastor does not not harp on issues that trigger me. This is in contrast to the much more ‘hardline’ parish with the very abrasive priest I initially attended here. I’ve volunteered at a number of events, am an EMHC there, and feel quite at home. I also didn’t relish the idea of possibly having to explain any change at work (my faculty position requires me to document my church involvement during my annual review process), or to my family, who at this point have drifted into the “Christmas/Easter Catholic” degree of observance.

For now, I’ll be open to what the future may hold for me. Perhaps I’ll meet a woman who is unable to have kids, or find one I’m so completely thrilled about and understanding it will make all my concerns go away.
 
CharlieDoe said:
OP here with an update on where I’m at with all this.

I did meet with the pastor at the local Episcopal parish. Very friendly young guy, maybe only slightly older than myself, sympathetic to my situation, even took me to lunch, said he’d love to have me come over but not to feel I need to be in any rush to do. I attended a few services, and felt an awful lot like what I’ve been used to.

I gave it some thought and prayer, and I’m not going to cross over just yet. The parish I go to is rather ‘mellow’, in that the pastor does not not harp on issues that trigger me. This is in contrast to the much more ‘hardline’ parish with the very abrasive priest I initially attended here. I’ve volunteered at a number of events, am an EMHC there, and feel quite at home. I also didn’t relish the idea of possibly having to explain any change at work (my faculty position requires me to document my church involvement during my annual review process), or to my family, who at this point have drifted into the “Christmas/Easter Catholic” degree of observance.

For now, I’ll be open to what the future may hold for me. Perhaps I’ll meet a woman who is unable to have kids, or find one I’m so completely thrilled about and understanding it will make all my concerns go away.
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I’d be far more concerned about why I feel compelled to take a view of Church teachings that allow me to test and question each teaching of the Church. That implies that you don’t believe that the Holy Spirit has ultimate charge over whether the Church teaches faith and morals truly. This in turn implies that the Roman Catholic Church and all the other churches are merely human organizations, such that we are each subject to our own capacity to discern right from wrong, having no sure guide outside ourselves. Unfortunately for us, if there is a plain message in the Bible, surely it is that people are very bad at unerringly choosing the right way from the way that seems the most attractive to them at the time. Even if we are as close to the Lord as David himself, a man after God’s own heart, who is to be our Prophet Nathan?

If the Church cannot be trusted to teach correctly on an issue such at this, we have indeed been left orphans, fending for ourselves against the malice and snares of the devil. That is a big deal. If you are coming to that conclusion that something seems white to the Church and black to you that you must feel bound to conclude that the true color of the situation is black, not white, realize the ramifications of that conclusion. They are huge.
 
CharlieDoe said:
Given Pope Francis’ recent comments on the beauty of beating children (so long as it’s not on the face, since that would be humiliating), I don’t think I can expect him or the church to be taking the pain of adult survivors of childhood physical abuse and domestic violence seriously.

I was going to wait to the end of the year to see if anything came out of the Synod on the Family, but the way it looks now I’m going to make an appointment to talk with the local Episcopalian pastor ASAP.
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That remark was not about physical abuse. He said:

“How beautiful! He has an understanding of dignity. He has to punish, but he does in the right way, and he goes forward.”

w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/it/audiences/2015/documents/papa-francesco_20150204_udienza-generale.html
 
BobCatholic said:
Hatred of children is just…wrong.
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Lacking a desire to oneself be a parent is not the same as hating children.

One could argue that the unwillingness to bring children into what may be a troubled life shows a higher regard for them than simply going happy-go-lucky into parenthood without being prepared.

Just IMNAAHO.

ICXC NIKA
 
CharlieDoe,

Firstly, I am sorry for the pain your father instilled, and I don’t mean “sorry” as in belittling you, but sorry as in I truly empathize with the horrendous memories you’ve had to harbor for so long.Your fear of having children is very valid. I don’t think it’s appropriate to say “not having a family allows your father to win,” no offense to other responses. What this does is only escalate feelings of guilt and self-doubt which is something a victim of trauma should not have to further endure. Another form of inflicting guilt is by insinuating that not having children is a selfish act. I assume you’ve heard this before.This is often said by those who have never truly been in an oppressive situation. And those who have been able to cope with their past trauma, simply have a different perception of stress and anxiety; but keep in mind,their new perception does not lessen the profundity of your experiences. Every person has had that mother, father, brother, niece, or friend who suffered from unspeakable violence and rose to the occasion. These are inspiring stories; however, not every victim is quite there yet

You’re obviously a very compassionate and thoughtful person if you are worried about others’ thoughts about procreating. CharlieDoe, you will hear a multitude of criticisms and commentaries from various groups, religious or nonreligious. Sure, having a family may be ideal and self-actualizing for a person who has the coping mechanisms and lack of history you have described, but it’s not something to dwell on. In this case, a dichotomous way of thinking will only cause more harm because of the guilt factor. I am going to try to avoid using the terms “right” and “wrong” because most victims of childhood trauma already have a dichotomous way of thinking embedded in them. Instead of focusing on what is right or wrong for the future, focus on what’s needed in the NOW to help you treat yourself with kindness. Right now you may be thinking, “Kids aren’t right for me. I want a wife. I don’t want kids.” These are neutral statements and you have caused no harm in saying these things. Avoiding having kids is a product of high levels of anxiety. It’s the fight-or-flight scenario, when you think about having kids it sounds like a threatening situation because something scary and familiar comes up. It’s an incursion of the heart and mind. Most people tend to avoid threatening situations. This is something most human beings and nonhuman animals have in common whether or not they would like to admit it. At some point in any person’s life, they avoided a situation that required deep contemplation. Because your childhood history is so complex, it requires much more mental effort than the average person. A lot of people don’t understand the complexity of this type of scenario.

Another misconception is that depression and anxiety are choices. You did not choose do be a victim, nor did you choose to deal with the aftermath. You are not compromising your values out of selfishness. Sometimes listening to advice can be more bewildering than first imagined. It probably comes naturally to reject compliments, but you have thrived more than you think. Focus on you. No need to be concerned about what others think about your future endeavors because most of us don’t have the credentials to be offering solid “yes” or “no” answers. For instance, a person may say, " Have kids and show your father you survived despite his sadistic actions." This person may not know how to handle delicate issues related to trauma and childhood development. Plus, you have already demonstrated you are a survivor.

I know I’ve rambled on quite a bit and will end here. Thank you for sharing something so personal. Not many people have the courage to allow themselves to be vulnerable. Treat yourself with kindness and try not to over think this because others’ perspectives can easily cloud your judgment and you’ve already been through so much as it is.
 
Children are wonderful. You’ll be a great Father.

I have seven children and believe me, I never expected it growing up. I came from a protestant family with two kids. The truth of the Catholic Church leads to joy, fulfillment, and heaven!

Seek God’s will and trust!
 
CHESTERTONRULES said:
Children are wonderful. You’ll be a great Father.

I have seven children and believe me, I never expected it growing up. I came from a protestant family with two kids. The truth of the Catholic Church leads to joy, fulfillment, and heaven!

Seek God’s will and trust!
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Well you totally convinced me 👍 Thanks!
 
GEddie said:
Lacking a desire to oneself be a parent is not the same as hating children.

One could argue that the unwillingness to bring children into what may be a troubled life shows a higher regard for them than simply going happy-go-lucky into parenthood without being prepared.

Just IMNAAHO.

ICXC NIKA
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And what about not bringing children into the world because that means they’ll only be able to afford one lavish vacation a year? Or the “overpopulation” argument? Or their career is 100,000% more important?

Lots of other reasons point to pedophobia.

If someone claims to have a messed-up life, they shouldn’t be having sex. THAT is the “simply going happy-go-lucky into parenthood without being prepared.”
 
BobCatholic said:
And what about not bringing children into the world because that means they’ll only be able to afford one lavish vacation a year? Or the “overpopulation” argument? Or their career is 100,000% more important?

Lots of other reasons point to pedophobia.

If someone claims to have a messed-up life, they shouldn’t be having sex. THAT is the “simply going happy-go-lucky into parenthood without being prepared.”
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I agree with your second point. Really, I don’t know why someone who claims to be averse to having children should be looking for a spouse.

But the OP’s concerns seemed to center on his abusive childhood and his concerns over his ability to provide for family, not lavish vacations or overpopulation.

And even those concerns imply only a wrong head, not “hatred of children.”

ICXC NIKA
 
GEddie said:
I agree with your second point. Really, I don’t know why someone who claims to be averse to having children should be looking for a spouse.

But the OP’s concerns seemed to center on his abusive childhood and his concerns over his ability to provide for family, not lavish vacations or overpopulation.

And even those concerns imply only a wrong head, not “hatred of children.”

ICXC NIKA
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I don’t know, I think saying " I never want children in my marriage" can be seen as a hatred of a gift God would want to give you seeing as that is part of marraige in the first place.

Good luck to the OP on finding a quality woman who just wishes to live for him with no children ever and because of an abusive past and not think that he would not be able to be the husband he should. In a way, being a spouse is a lot like having kids anyway. You will have to be patient, kind, you will have to help them, nurture them, and perhaps wipe them or clean them through times in life. Marriage has the same goal and responsibilities as parenthood. Help another to grow, allow them to make mistakes and help them achieve heaven.
 
OP here.

Had a vasectomy earlier this year. Then, a few months later, requested copies of the police reports from every time the police were called to my childhood address.

Went to confession at a church several hours away, showed the priest (a married one, part of the Anglican Ordinariate) copies of the police reports, and asked as whether my culpability could be lessened or reduced due to childhood abuse and domestic violence per CCC 1735. He said it likely was, but nonetheless absolved me with my penance being to continue in therapy.

Praise God for His Mercy.
 
OP why are you trying to deal with this NOW? It is at present a hypothetical and not wise to worry like this. Yes I was greatly abused but am over it finally, and in my case without any help except Jesus
 
it’s one thing to end up with a childless marriage, that happens sometimes it’s another thing to want one that in itself is kind of greedy. I see a lot of the first person pronoun in your arguments not what God wants. I think you should remember it is and thy will be done not my will be done
 
CharlieDoe said:
OP here.

Had a vasectomy earlier this year. Then, a few months later, requested copies of the police reports from every time the police were called to my childhood address.

Went to confession at a church several hours away, showed the priest (a married one, part of the Anglican Ordinariate) copies of the police reports, and asked as whether my culpability could be lessened or reduced due to childhood abuse and domestic violence per CCC 1735. He said it likely was, but nonetheless absolved me with my penance being to continue in therapy.

Praise God for His Mercy.
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I’m sorry to hear that you mutulated yourself.
Without a marriage you must have done so irrationally. Please seek help.
 
CharlieDoe said:
OP here.

Had a vasectomy earlier this year. Then, a few months later, requested copies of the police reports from every time the police were called to my childhood address.

Went to confession at a church several hours away, showed the priest (a married one, part of the Anglican Ordinariate) copies of the police reports, and asked as whether my culpability could be lessened or reduced due to childhood abuse and domestic violence per CCC 1735. He said it likely was, but nonetheless absolved me with my penance being to continue in therapy.

Praise God for His Mercy.
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I am glad to hear you were able to go to Confession, and I hope you are able to persevere in carrying out your penance (i.e. going to therapy). I will say a prayer for you.
 
I did not read all of the posts, but I didn’t see anyone mention this : Forgive your father.
No, it’s not going to be easy, but the Lord can help you with it. Until you do (and you’ll
know because when you think of him it will not inspire emotions one way or the other)
you’ll have him tainting everything in your life. You’ve managed to be somewhat successful, but your unforgiveness of him is hurting you.
I have had to do this, forgive someone who hurt me, and while it took a long time, the
Lord helped me do it. It started with me praying, Lord, I don’t feel like forgiving, please
help me to want to forgive. Step at a time, I realized one day when someone mentioned
him that I no longer felt hurt, anger, etc.
I’ll pray for you.
 
I am deeply sorry that you experienced abuse from your father. I hope you know it wasn’t your fault and I am glad the police were able to step in. I can understand why you wouldn’t want to have children. I don’t have the authority to tell you how to proceed, but I would recommend as options talking to a counselor and a priest to help you heal from your past, resolve whether you will leave the Church and resolve whether you want to go ahead with marriage.

Finding a committed life partner outside of marriage and remaining chaste together is an option for you to consider that the Church allows.
 
TexCatholic4JMJ said:
I did not read all of the posts, but I didn’t see anyone mention this : Forgive your father.
No, it’s not going to be easy, but the Lord can help you with it. Until you do (and you’ll
know because when you think of him it will not inspire emotions one way or the other)
you’ll have him tainting everything in your life. You’ve managed to be somewhat successful, but your unforgiveness of him is hurting you.
I have had to do this, forgive someone who hurt me, and while it took a long time, the
Lord helped me do it. It started with me praying, Lord, I don’t feel like forgiving, please
help me to want to forgive. Step at a time, I realized one day when someone mentioned
him that I no longer felt hurt, anger, etc.
I’ll pray for you.
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Forgive. Of course. Child abuse isn’t really that bad. We’ve gotten too soft.

That’s the problem with kids these days, they just aren’t beaten severely enough. Right? I see and hear plenty of talk of that nature from people within the Church, and it makes me want to choke them.

The solution would be for me to have kids of my own, then I would realize just how difficult I and my brother may have been. Then I could have sympathy for my father, and maybe, like him, take it out on my kids.

And so the beautiful circle of life continues.

Maybe, like him, I would then see what fatherhood is all about.

It’s about the joy that comes from inflicting pain on someone smaller and weaker who can’t fight back.

Indeed, that’s really one of the great joys of this world isn’t it? To find someone smaller and weaker than you, to put down and hurt. An awful lot of people, perhaps most, take joy in that.

‘He only hurt us because he loved us. Right?’ Definitely, because, as much fun as it is to just physically injure someone, it’s all the more fun to injure their spirits as well, by telling them ‘it’s for their own good.’

Of course, while my kids would be small, I can hurt them as much as I want. That’s what authority is all about.

And then, once they’re grown, they’ll need to forgive me too. After all, bruises heal, and all that’s left are hurt feelings. And we care too much about feelings these days. Boo hoo. Right?

I’m glad that I’ve made certain that the chain ends with me. And yes, that does make me, deep down, feel better that parents who beat their children.
 
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