Wanting to become a traditional Catholic

  • Thread starter Thread starter LoganBice
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
And before one becomes too enamored with the 40’s and the 50’s, it would bear remembering that the abuses committed by priests in the 60’s and 70’s and 80’s was in large part committed by priests who were ordained in the 40’s and 50’s and early 60’s, before the changes. All was not entirely copasetic then.
I don’t understand this argument. It is no crime to get ordained. It seems when the crime was committed is of more importance, whether it was done by a priest or any one else, for that matter. And it could have been a young or an old person. And btw, the changes had started back in 1955 if not sooner.
 
Well, Johnnyc, I don’t know what sort of EF parish you go to but at ours we talk about all of these things that Truelight has mentioned. Certainly not ALL the time, but these items are things that can be done to assist in developing a traditional spiritual life. 🙂
Sorry…my comment was misleading. I should have said you will hear of all of them at an EF parish and only some of them at an OF parish. 👍
 
Just to help you out, since you don’t understand:

The Church holds that Protestants are not heretics, as they have inherited about 500 years of the errors from which Protestantism originated, and are not morally responsible for rejecting the Church.

On the other hand, the SSPX have been bishops and priests who have been ordained Catholic and have broken off.

And lest we narrow your term “Traditionalist” down too tightly, a Traditionalist, if they are part of the Catholic Church, do not reject anything since the mid 1960’s which the Church has promulgated, as that is walking a mighty thin line with rejecting the Church; and one can slip over that line so easily.

It is fine to be emotionally attached to things prior to the 1960’s’; the danger is in rejecting things since then.

And before one becomes too enamored with the 40’s and the 50’s, it would bear remembering that the abuses committed by priests in the 60’s and 70’s and 80’s was in large part committed by priests who were ordained in the 40’s and 50’s and early 60’s, before the changes. All was not entirely copasetic then.
I think traditionalists are not so much enamored with the 50’s and 60’s (I’ve never met any who are, actually), but rather they are enamored of the Church in it’s entirety; namely, they look to the nearly 2000 year old history, and accept that the Church is nearly 2000 years old, and that the Church didn’t begin in the 1960’s. Given the human element which has always been there, there have been big problems in the history of the Church, of course. But we trads still love the Church - warts and all - in its entirety
 
I think traditionalists are not so much enamored with the 50’s and 60’s (I’ve never met any who are, actually), but rather they are enamored of the Church in it’s entirety; namely, they look to the nearly 2000 year old history, and accept that the Church is nearly 2000 years old, and that the Church didn’t begin in the 1960’s. Given the human element which has always been there, there have been big problems in the history of the Church, of course. But we trads still love the Church - warts and all - in its entirety
But… loving the Church in its entirety (warts and all) does also mean loving the Church that continues to exist since the 1960s… warts and all. One can’t claim to love the Church but hate the post-Vatican II Church. It’s the same Church, before, during, and after. Those who reject the post-Vatican II Church are in fact… rejecting the Church. Just as the Church didn’t begin in the 1960s, it didn’t end in the 1960s either (and for some of us, the post-1960 Church is the only one we know intimately).
 
And before one becomes too enamored with the 40’s and the 50’s, it would bear remembering that the abuses committed …
Not to mention the strictness in the Catholic schools, especially in the U.K.
 
But… loving the Church in its entirety (warts and all) does also mean loving the Church that continues to exist since the 1960s… warts and all. One can’t claim to love the Church but hate the post-Vatican II Church. It’s the same Church, before, during, and after. Those who reject the post-Vatican II Church are in fact… rejecting the Church. Just as the Church didn’t begin in the 1960s, it didn’t end in the 1960s either (and for some of us, the post-1960 Church is the only one we know intimately).
I agree. Shouldn’t we all, then, love the Church as it existed both before and after the 1960’s? Yes, absolutely. Since Truth doesn’t change, there’s no reason to not love the Church as it existed before the 1960’s (or after).
 
…namely, they look to the nearly 2000 year old history, and accept that the Church is nearly 2000 years old, and that the Church didn’t begin in the 1960’s.
Do they even teach Church history in the schools anymore?
 
Not to mention the strictness in the Catholic schools, especially in the U.K.
In the early 60’s, the Jesuit high school I attended included spats for serious violations of the rules; the spat paddle resembled a baseball bat, flattened to a paddle with holes drilled in it. Bend over and grab your ankles…

And no, I never endured the reception of such discipline.
 
I think traditionalists are not so much enamored with the 50’s and 60’s (I’ve never met any who are, actually), but rather they are enamored of the Church in it’s entirety; namely, they look to the nearly 2000 year old history, and accept that the Church is nearly 2000 years old, and that the Church didn’t begin in the 1960’s. Given the human element which has always been there, there have been big problems in the history of the Church, of course. But we trads still love the Church - warts and all - in its entirety
I would agree with you that some traditionalists are as you stated; but there are also those who either reject what has occurred since Vatican 2, or come so close as to not be distinguishable. When some of the more polite comments about the OF are that it is banal, well, then the line being walked is thin indeed.
 
…that it is banal, well, then the line being walked is thin indeed.
Banal and fabricated is what I recall Cardinal Ratzinger wrote. And he wasn’t a traditionalist, at least not at that time I don’t think.
 
But… loving the Church in its entirety (warts and all) does also mean loving the Church that continues to exist since the 1960s… warts and all. One can’t claim to love the Church but hate the post-Vatican II Church. It’s the same Church, before, during, and after. Those who reject the post-Vatican II Church are in fact… rejecting the Church. Just as the Church didn’t begin in the 1960s, it didn’t end in the 1960s either (and for some of us, the post-1960 Church is the only one we know intimately).
We certainly can reject the ‘spirit’ of Vatican II that caused much damaged to the Church (and still is). And now that the TLM is flourishing after being suppressed there is much more to love about the Church.
 
I would agree with you that some traditionalists are as you stated; but there are also those who either reject what has occurred since Vatican 2, or come so close as to not be distinguishable. When some of the more polite comments about the OF are that it is banal, well, then the line being walked is thin indeed.
Well, yes, I think you’re right that some trads reject what has occurred since Vatican ll. But I have sympathy for them. I converted in 2007, so I have no experience one way or the other, but I’ve listened with sympathy and understanding to those who feel that their hearts were broken with the changes in the 60’s (which the Council did NOT mandate). They feel that their Catholic Faith, as it was practiced then, was taken away from them.

You’ve mentioned that there were problems before the 60’s. I think you’re right. It may be possible that our Lord allowed the slate to be wiped clean so that He could start over again with a new and kinder form of tradition. I mean, tradition is slowly making a comeback, minus the problems that occurred before the 60’s. There may be a fear that those problems will come back full force, but I don’t think so, but I could be wrong, of course. I have hope and faith that our Lord, as well as the Holy Ghost, know what They are doing. There may be some terrible trials ahead, but the Church will come out stronger for it, eventually
 
Well, yes, I think you’re right that some trads reject what has occurred since Vatican ll. But I have sympathy for them. I converted in 2007, so I have no experience one way or the other, but I’ve listened with sympathy and understanding to those who feel that their hearts were broken with the changes in the 60’s (which the Council did NOT mandate). They feel that their Catholic Faith, as it was practiced then, was taken away from them.
My mother was born in 1917, and there were 5 students in her high school graduating class (Catholic school, in a rural area of Oregon). My dad was born in 1912, and quit school at the age of 14 to go out into the woods and set chokers. Both had a strong faith, albeit a simple one. My dad certainly did not read documents from Rome; my mother might have while in high school, or might not have. I can remember years ago asking my mother what she thought of the changes of Vatican 2; her immediate response was “Oh, we got the Mass in 'English!” which she thought was fabulous.

We have always had people for whom Faith was about substance, and those for whom Faith was to a lesser or greater degree about form. For those whose Faith was somewhat to greatly influenced by form, the change of Vatican 2 were between difficult and impossible. I am sympathetic, but have found that the number of people who had great difficulty are far fewer than those who seemed to be able to make the transition without serious problems.

Which is not to say that they had any patience with goofy rubrics, but by and large they tended to live in parishes which were not so impacted, and so it did not become a problem. Form what I have experienced, most of the goofiness occurred in larger cities, and even there was by no means universal.
 
…but have found that the number of people who had great difficulty are far fewer than those who seemed to be able to make the transition without serious problems.
Okay, but this is not the complete story, seeing the decline of Mass attendance. One would expect those who still attended Mass were to some degree accepting of those changes, which included relaxation of the Eucharistic fast among other things. What about those who never came back?

I decided against going to a Catholic university in 1965. I stopped attending Mass altogether shortly after that. Some lady I was dating in 1970 talked me into coming back and I did. I at least figured I would share the pain with everyone else. I certainly didn’t see much enthusiasm, no one went to confession anymore, everyone dragged themselves to communion, though you are right about the English, although from time to time a Latin OF was said and people did come out to attend it. I concluded that people still enjoyed some mystery surrounding the Mass. So it was surprising to me how people overwhelming rejected JPII’s permission to say the older Mass.
 
Okay, but this is not the complete story, seeing the decline of Mass attendance. One would expect those who still attended Mass were to some degree accepting of those changes, which included relaxation of the Eucharistic fast among other things. What about those who never came back?

I decided against going to a Catholic university in 1965. I stopped attending Mass altogether shortly after that. Some lady I was dating in 1970 talked me into coming back and I did. I at least figured I would share the pain with everyone else. I certainly didn’t see much enthusiasm, no one went to confession anymore, everyone dragged themselves to communion, though you are right about the English, although from time to time a Latin OF was said and people did come out to attend it. I concluded that people still enjoyed some mystery surrounding the Mass. So it was surprising to me how people overwhelming rejected JPII’s permission to say the older Mass.
The decline in Mass attendance started in the late 1950’s. No one ever bothers with this fact, and a goodly number never bother with the facts of the actual decline, which has been steady at about 1 to 2% per year over decades now, dropping down to the low to mid 20’s. We just get the urban myths.

If we look at recent history, Mass attendance (according to CARA) increased after 9/11. Not surprisingly, a crisis has a tendency to cause some people to focus - or as my dad, a cannon cocker in WW2 said, there aren’t any atheists in foxholes. The blip was not overly long lasting; but then, the attack was a single act of war which was not followed up immediately by conflict.

It is not therefore particularly surprising that more and more people, as things stabilized after WW2, were church oriented. And as we stabilized economically and politically after WW2, there would come a time where people’s religious enthusiasm would begin to wane; add to that the increase in secular influences, including ABC and no-fault divorce, the arrival in first the youth culture and then eventually the popular culture of “free sex”, and the rise of more secularism all have worked to distance people from Christ.

When you and I were in school, Latin was widely taught both in private and in public schools, but the classics were making way for other languages, primarily German, French and Spanish. As more and more “tweaking” occurred to curricula and more and more pointy headed theories made their way from the intelligencia of academia to the world of politics and education (a deadly mix if ever there was one), Latin was dropped.

Urban mythology has vast numbers of people dropping out of the Church when the OF hit; but the real world facts have never supported that. Vast numbers of people took to the vernacular like the proverbial duck to water. And again, urban mythology would have one to believe that each and every last one of the 17,000 +/- parishes in the US suddenly went bonkers, having 40 and 50 year old women who may have taken ballet back in the third through fifth grades trying to twirl and pirouette up the isle. That didn’t happen; that it occurred in some parishes on occasion is true (I have seen it exactly once in 68 years) but again it is urban mythology that it was all over the place and in each nook and cranny.

It still baffles me that people can’t understand that the average, and maybe even above average person prays in their native tongue and were doing so 60, 70 100 and more years ago, with the exception of the Mass. and while people might have Latin responses memorized, most of them once they got beyond high school forgot most of the Latin they may have been taught in school. In addition, the vast majority who were taught Latin were taught it as a translated language as opposed to a spoken one, a fact that adds to the distancing from Latin in the Mass.

It was not for no reason that people could buy a missal with Latin on one side and English on the other; hardly anyone was proficient enough to translate on the fly. And it is far easier for most to listen in English that to read English while another language is spoken.

Most people are not particularly keyed into rubrics, and can hardly articulate the difference in the rubrics between the OF and the EF, beyond “Father says Mass with his back to the people”, liturgical East being largely unknown. They pretty much operate on “if it ain’t broke, why fix it?”
 
My mother was born in 1917, and there were 5 students in her high school graduating class (Catholic school, in a rural area of Oregon). My dad was born in 1912, and quit school at the age of 14 to go out into the woods and set chokers. Both had a strong faith, albeit a simple one. My dad certainly did not read documents from Rome; my mother might have while in high school, or might not have. I can remember years ago asking my mother what she thought of the changes of Vatican 2; her immediate response was “Oh, we got the Mass in 'English!” which she thought was fabulous.

We have always had people for whom Faith was about substance, and those for whom Faith was to a lesser or greater degree about form. For those whose Faith was somewhat to greatly influenced by form, the change of Vatican 2 were between difficult and impossible. I am sympathetic, but have found that the number of people who had great difficulty are far fewer than those who seemed to be able to make the transition without serious problems.

Which is not to say that they had any patience with goofy rubrics, but by and large they tended to live in parishes which were not so impacted, and so it did not become a problem. Form what I have experienced, most of the goofiness occurred in larger cities, and even there was by no means universal.
“What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or considered harmful. It behooves all of us to preserve the riches which have developed in the Church’s faith and prayer, and to give them their proper place.”

–Pope Benedict XVl
Letter to Bishops, 07 July, 2007
 
Well I looked it up and there are no EF in my area. The closest is an hour and a half away so I may be able to attend a few times but financially I cannot make it every Sunday. I will of course continue to attend the NO because I see nothing wrong with it. Would it be acceptable for me to kneel for communion at the NO? I feel unworthy to touch it in my hands
Recieving Communion on the tongue while standing is a fairly common practice. I recently recieved Communion this way without thinking. This went without notice, and so much so I did not even realize what had happened until later. However, kneeling could be problematic. I would first ask the pastor. The bishop could provide the definitive word on the practice for the diocese.
 
The decline in Mass attendance started in the late 1950’s. No one ever bothers with this fact,
And no one bothers to mention that Mass reforms started back in 1948.
It is not therefore particularly surprising that more and more people, as things stabilized after WW2, were church oriented. And as we stabilized economically and politically after WW2, there would come a time where people’s religious enthusiasm would begin to wane;

Most people are not particularly keyed into rubrics, and can hardly articulate the difference in the rubrics between the OF and the EF, beyond “Father says Mass with his back to the people”, liturgical East being largely unknown. They pretty much operate on “if it ain’t broke, why fix it?”
I’m beginning to think it had/has more to do with the fact that people were/are expecting more and more transparency in their government, their local church, the Fed, their schools, and on and on. Even their liturgy it seems. The priest now faces the people and everything is audiblized (even amplified) in the vernacular so that nothing goes unnoticed and there’s hardly any mystery left. Doesn’t mean people understand things any better. Nor does it mean they will follow it any better either. Financial statements of dioceses are now available to the public; CSPAN follows every move on the Senate and House floors; and so on. But how many even care now that it’s all available, when one time they demanded audits on everything?

From all my observations, many people are turned off in the EF because of the inability to follow it, even if it is well-organized and “you have Latin on one side and English on the other.” Okay reason I guess but it misses the point of what used to attract people to Mass in the 30’s and 40’s and 50’s among other eras. I’m not 100% sure but it probably had something to do with the reasons expressed in Trent, specifically Session 22.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top