Wanting to understand Mormon Belief.

[jim1130]

paul barlow:

are you saying that jesus was not the son of God? was the saviour talking to himself on the cross or his father? we believe he is the son of God the Eternal father.

Hmmmm…let’s re-read my post: “Jesus IS the Son of God.” Seems clear to me what I said. Why would I say that Jesus was NOT the Son of God, but say that He WAS the Son of God? Let’s read the Gospel of John, Chapter 1: “In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. In him was life: and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness: and the darkness did not comprehend it. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. This man came for a witness, to give testimony of the light, that all men might believe through him. He was not the light, but was to give testimony of the light. That was the true light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world. He was in the world: and the world was made by him: and the world knew him not. He came unto his own: and his own received him not. But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.”

 

[paul_barlow]

jim1130:

Hmmmm…let’s re-read my post: “Jesus IS the Son of God.” Seems clear to me what I said. Why would I say that Jesus was NOT the Son of God, but say that He WAS the Son of God? Let’s read the Gospel of John, Chapter 1: “In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. In him was life: and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness: and the darkness did not comprehend it. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. This man came for a witness, to give testimony of the light, that all men might believe through him. He was not the light, but was to give testimony of the light. That was the true light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world. He was in the world: and the world was made by him: and the world knew him not. He came unto his own: and his own received him not. But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.”

glad you note that Jesus is the son of God. And therefore that he has a father. So you have excepted our view of the Godhead well done. why not look at the saviours baptism for your next task.

 

[jim1130]

paul barlow:

glad you note that Jesus is the son of God. And therefore that he has a father. So you have excepted our view of the Godhead well done. why not look at the saviours baptism for your next task.

I really do not see what you are gettting at since I expressed that in my first post, except the obvious to trap me, and yes I took “exception” (your word) to your view since “exception” is defined as an “objection” so I object to any tricks or gimmicks you are trying. Next time, get the verbage right, sport! You deny the Trinity, right? You deny that that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirt are three Gods in one? You deny that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit have always been and always will be; that there was nothing before God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit? Do you agree with that or was God once mortal man who became God thanks to another god?

 

[paul_barlow]

jim1130:

I really do not see what you are gettting at since I expressed that in my first post, except the obvious to trap me, and yes I took “exception” (your word) to your view since “exception” is defined as an “objection” so I object to any tricks or gimmicks you are trying. Next time, get the verbage right, sport! You deny the Trinity, right? You deny that that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirt are three Gods in one? You deny that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit have always been and always will be; that there was nothing before God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit? Do you agree with that or was God once mortal man who became God thanks to another god?

god the father, son and holy ghost are seperate persons. and the first two have bodies with passions ect so yes i reject your 3rd century view of the godhead. so god in his time was a man he is still our God what he was before he was god has not important relivance to us. its who he is now that matters. lets hear your defence of the trinity. don’t bother using the new testiment to defend your view on it. that was based on them working in unity of purpose not body.

 

[Brad_Haas]

My eyes are opened! Thanks to Paul Barlow’s posts, I have decided to become a Mormon.

Paul - please try to be more gentle in your posts. You really come across as arrogant, and that does not make for good discussions. Even the best of us can be short on patience.

 

[paul_barlow]

Brad Haas:

My eyes are opened! Thanks to Paul Barlow’s posts, I have decided to become a Mormon.

Paul - please try to be more gentle in your posts. You really come across as arrogant, and that does not make for good discussions. Even the best of us can be short on patience.

man made faith, false church, founder a lier and womanizer these are charges posted against us in the last day. if i was to do that to your church i would be kicked off the site. so i maybe arrogant when i feel a unfair attack on my beliefs as equally your posters are with you thinking you are the true church and everybody else is wrong.

 

[majick275]

You might want to look at some of the older writings on this subject.

would you agree with this ?

And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

or this?

And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Or this?

Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

I think they say it accurately, The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are ONE GOD.

 

[paul_barlow]

majick275:

You might want to look at some of the older writings on this subject.

would you agree with this ?

And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

or this?

And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Or this?

Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

I think they say it accurately, The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are ONE GOD.

in purpose

 

[jim1130]

paul barlow:

god the father, son and holy ghost are seperate persons. and the first two have bodies with passions ect so yes i reject your 3rd century view of the godhead. so god in his time was a man he is still our God what he was before he was god has not important relivance to us. its who he is now that matters. lets hear your defence of the trinity. don’t bother using the new testiment to defend your view on it. that was based on them working in unity of purpose not body.

Oh, I don’t plan to defend anything at all. For starters, you are not going to change your views and I am certainly am not going to be swayed, coerced, tricked, duped, deceived, or fooled to align with Mormonism. On that we can both agree. Where do we go from here? From my perspective, I question your involvement on this forum. If you say you want to defend LDS from misinformation then I do not see a lot of clarification, but rather self-promoting posturing. Your involvement on this site certainly has nothing to do with learning more about Catholicism because from what I have read any logical, literate, intelligent, historical or rational presentation of Catholic doctrine is immediately dismissed and denigrated because you have invested your future lock-stock-and-barrel in the prophecies of Joseph Smith. When you constantly throw barbs such as “one true church” and “apostasy” you can expect a degree of defensive hostility from Catholics because the tone is often condescending and patronizing. Now, I understand that you may want such hostility directed toward you because it may feed into a sense of persecution, but it is contrived persecution; not real, but false, like someone who deliberately and with intent instigates a fight, but does not throw the first punch so when the initial instigator is struck then that person plays the victim role. From my point of view, I am interested in reading what others say and learning from others, but not when they play word games and semantics and try one-upmanship where evasive comments and answers to questions suggest a slick shell game where the truth is moved to accommodate the moment. It is apparent that the LDS has secrets and that the creeds are not all that they are cracked up to be; that one has to delve deeper into the interpretation. I think LDS serves the dessert before the entrée because the entrée, if served first, may not be to everyone’s liking. Anyway, have a good life. I will keep future comments to myself and opt to read and observe.

 

[paul_barlow]

jim1130:

Oh, I don’t plan to defend anything at all. For starters, you are not going to change your views and I am certainly am not going to be swayed, coerced, tricked, duped, deceived, or fooled to align with Mormonism. On that we can both agree. Where do we go from here? From my perspective, I question your involvement on this forum. If you say you want to defend LDS from misinformation then I do not see a lot of clarification, but rather self-promoting posturing. Your involvement on this site certainly has nothing to do with learning more about Catholicism because from what I have read any logical, literate, intelligent, historical or rational presentation of Catholic doctrine is immediately dismissed and denigrated because you have invested your future lock-stock-and-barrel in the prophecies of Joseph Smith. When you constantly throw barbs such as “one true church” and “apostasy” you can expect a degree of defensive hostility from Catholics because the tone is often condescending and patronizing. Now, I understand that you may want such hostility directed toward you because it may feed into a sense of persecution, but it is contrived persecution; not real, but false, like someone who deliberately and with intent instigates a fight, but does not throw the first punch so when the initial instigator is struck then that person plays the victim role. From my point of view, I am interested in reading what others say and learning from others, but not when they play word games and semantics and try one-upmanship where evasive comments and answers to questions suggest a slick shell game where the truth is moved to accommodate the moment. It is apparent that the LDS has secrets and that the creeds are not all that they are cracked up to be; that one has to delve deeper into the interpretation. I think LDS serves the dessert before the entrée because the entrée, if served first, may not be to everyone’s liking. Anyway, have a good life. I will keep future comments to myself and opt to read and observe.

talking about our temple its easier to talk to mjick because he has been there. if you want to know i will tell you. so please say what you want to know.

 

[majick275]

paul barlow:

in purpose

That’s funny. It never says that in any of those writings. No, it’s quite clear. They are truly ONE. Consubstantial and co-equal. That’s what ONE means.

 

[catholic-rcia]

paul barlow:

he is the son

of god. he is our mediator our redeemer. we will aways argue about the godhead and your incorrect views on it. but lets just remeber what Jesus did for us and even you will find no fault with our worship of God through Jesus.

love paul

I would never doubt your sincerity “Never”

You need to see yourself as a creation of God. You need to see God as not part of Creation, but the essence and origin of all that is, includung nothing. The nature of God is so huge, we as humans will never be able to just explain it. But there is also a lot of simplicity in it. God through His son created us out of Love for His Son, the Son created us out of Love for the Father. But God has never been created, He is the very essence of Love, He is Love, and this love has been gifted to us by Him, His creation, through that which has always been loved, Jesus…

If you do not understand this Nature in simple ways than you will be tempted by pride, grace will be fleeting and not understood… If Jesus was just another man like us at one time, if God was once another man like us at one time, what kind of God would this be? When I am immersed in the death and resurrection of Christ I know that it is my Creator that died for me, Not just a good man who loves me.

God died for me, he gave everything, and I could never state how immense the Passion of Christ was for the Father. I get a glimpse during the year, but on the holy days this message is never clearer. The Nature of God, How important is it? To a Christian it means to die to selfish pursuits such as anything that one wishes for himself or herself accept to be pulled into to it as created beings and live with this nature forever. Nothing else matters unless we want to start taking what the devil offered our first parents in the garden, what was offered to our Lord and God in the desert. It is very tempting, but it is good to know why one is saying no to such offers. The Nature of God can shed a whole lot of light on these choices. I would love to take what the world has to offer, even take it to heaven with me but I can’t. Because of My love for Jesus.

on these choices.

 

[paul_barlow]

majick275:

That’s funny. It never says that in any of those writings. No, it’s quite clear. They are truly ONE. Consubstantial and co-equal. That’s what ONE means.

nope very untrue

 

[catholic-rcia]

Originally Posted by paul barlow

god the father, son and holy ghost are seperate persons. and the first two have bodies with passions ect so yes i reject your 3rd century view of the godhead. so god in his time was a man he is still our God what he was before he was god has not important relivance to us. its who he is now that matters. lets hear your defence of the trinity. don’t bother using the new testiment to defend your view on it. that was based on them working in unity of purpose not body.

I will only use the New Testement, it is very clear on Trinity, now that I have come to be blessed by it. .

One Body in Christ, we are His Body
Make a circle on a piece of paper, place a bunch of dots in it. Christ would be the Circle and even the table, the dots are part of His One Body. This would be us, the little dots. You can use a vine as well. He would be the Vine and the root, his Father is the vine grower, we would be the branches. I would be a leaf, because I always seem to fall off.

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians12.htm

 

[majick275]

how so? if it were that simple then don’t you think they would have written one in purpose instead of just saying one God?

 

[paul_barlow]

catholic-rcia:

I would never doubt your sincerity “Never”

You need to see yourself as a creation of God. You need to see God as not part of Creation, but the essence and origin of all that is, includung nothing. The nature of God is so huge, we as humans will never be able to just explain it. But there is also a lot of simplicity in it. God through His son created us out of Love for His Son, the Son created us out of Love for the Father. But God has never been created, He is the very essence of Love, He is Love, and this love has been gifted to us by Him, His creation, through that which has always been loved, Jesus…

If you do not understand this Nature in simple ways than you will be tempted by pride, grace will be fleeting and not understood… If Jesus was just another man like us at one time, if God was once another man like us at one time, what kind of God would this be? When I am immersed in the death and resurrection of Christ I know that it is my Creator that died for me, Not just a good man who loves me.

God died for me, he gave everything, and I could never state how immense the Passion of Christ was for the Father. I get a glimpse during the year, but on the holy days this message is never clearer. The Nature of God, How important is it? To a Christian it means to die to selfish pursuits such as anything that one wishes for himself or herself accept to be pulled into to it as created beings and live with this nature forever. Nothing else matters unless we want to start taking what the devil offered our first parents in the garden, what was offered to our Lord and God in the desert. It is very tempting, but it is good to know why one is saying no to such offers. The Nature of God can shed a whole lot of light on these choices. I would love to take what the world has to offer, even take it to heaven with me but I can’t. Because of My love for Jesus.

on these choices.

this is intresting what you believe is so close to what we believe. the state of god before he became our god has no impact on our worship of him. so continue in your belief and love him as i will in my way.

 

[majick275]

I can not see how the nature of God could not impact worship of him. I can think of no greater blasphemy than God having once been just a man sinning and repenting until he died and was saved. A God who is in heaven with his wives procreating. There is a VAST difference between worshipping a divine being who has always been divine and who created us, someone who is our GOD rather than our parent. A God so glorious that we can never become completely like him. He will always be God. He never kneeled in prayer to another begging for forgiveness. He did not require a savior. He has ALWAYS been God.

 

[majick275]

regarding the trinity, what does this mean to you?

And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

 

[jim1130]

majick275:

I can not see how the nature of God could not impact worship of him. I can think of no greater blasphemy than God having once been just a man sinning and repenting until he died and was saved. A God who is in heaven with his wives procreating. There is a VAST difference between worshipping a divine being who has always been divine and who created us, someone who is our GOD rather than our parent. A God so glorious that we can never become completely like him. He will always be God. He never kneeled in prayer to another begging for forgiveness. He did not require a savior. He has ALWAYS been God.

I am reading “The Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” by Dr. Ludwig Ott and am trying to fully and completely comprehend the enormity and greatness of God. To relegate God to the role of human being turned god is unfathomable, as if God is some mutant being who underwent a metamorphosis to aspire to greatness. My life on earth is about worshipping God, not selfishly thinking that I, too, may someday attain god-like status. In other words, I am not out to brown-nose or con God just so that I can become my own creator and toy with an inhabited planet.

 

[catholic-rcia]

majick275:

I can not see how the nature of God could not impact worship of him. I can think of no greater blasphemy than God having once been just a man sinning and repenting until he died and was saved. A God who is in heaven with his wives procreating. There is a VAST difference between worshipping a divine being who has always been divine and who created us, someone who is our GOD rather than our parent. A God so glorious that we can never become completely like him. He will always be God. He never kneeled in prayer to another begging for forgiveness. He did not require a savior. He has ALWAYS been God.

I could not imagine it either; it really does impact how you live your life for God and for others. My earthly Father is just a sinner like me. But God my Father is my true Father in heaven; he is very different than my earthy Father. I tell my children not to look at me to highly as I will fail them at times. I tell them to look to Christ, that He never will. I tell my children that my love is Conditional for the most part, But I tell them that Gods Love is not. That He will always love them and be there for them in any situation, in all hardships and in all joy. I am not my Children’s father in the same sense that God is. I like this and so do my children, it seems we can forgive each other lightly, even with a certain sense of humor and humility.

I know I am a sinner saved only by the Grace of God. He has never sinned. I know that when I do a good deed all credit goes to our God because it is Him who does this Good deed through me. I take no credit accept in the fact that I made the right choice to do His will (Not Mine) And when I do, and I do, I ask to be forgiven. I know that the only Good thing about me is Christ in me. He is the Good, I am a Creature whom can pass on His goodness if and when I choose. And even when I am not aware of His goodness or even care about it God still works through me in spite of my self centered nature. I did not know these things until I was going through the RCIA, mostly until after I was Baptized. A good example would be when I gave some money to a homeless women who was in the Catholic Cathedral in Salt lake city. I walked past her and started for the exit, I got to my truck. But as I was walking by her God asked me to give her all of my money in my wallet. I did not want to hear this, I did not hear this until I got to the truck, that’s when it sunk in. I was thinking about having lunch with that money on the way back home. I faced my true nature and then I returned to the women and gave her the money, Gods money. She looked at me and you know what she said? She said “I knew you would come back” She hugged me and she must have been Catholic because she thanked God instead of me. Oh how I remember when I would take all the credit innocently, back when I was my own center. Back when I did not know the true nature of God, the most holy Trinity.

You see here we get to face these truths about ourselves. We mostly do good because we will be seen as being good. This is also the fall of all of us. When you choose to do Gods work for God alone everything changes. You come to know your nature well, especially while standing under the cross. You come to face your sin, and this is when Gods Nature becomes important. I can stand in the line of confession and see my priest in this line, my friends and my family. We can look each other in the eye and say “I know”. It is so different my friend. We are nothing at all and yet because of Christ God can love us dearly; he can bring us in one by one as His own. He is our God and we are His people. We as Catholics will never be good enough to attend Mass, to receive our spiritual food for each day, but that is the beauty of it, we don’t have to be. He takes us each as we are, sin and all. When I speak of sin I don’t mean things like smoking and drinking or cussing or lying. My problem has always been trying to be in charge of my life, trying to be a god, instead of letting Christ lead me. This is the sin that can kill a soul. This is the reason I attend Mass as much as I possibly can. Because I always need His help, and lately in everything that I do and say.

God Bless