Wanting to understand the pre-Vatican II Church

[edwest2]

Edwest and other have hit the culture nail on the head. I think these are quotes tell us what we are seeing. As the Church activist and liberals told us we had to have the Priest turn away from the Alter and Tabernacle and face the people. They told us we had to do away with all the traditions so we could be more inviting to the modern world and have a big & open tent.

Karl Marx - “People separated from their history are easily persuaded.”

Milan Kundera - “The first step in liquidating a people is to erase its memory. Destroy its books, its culture, its history. Then have somebody write new books, manufacture a new culture, invent a new history. Before long the nation will begin to forget what it is and what it was.”

V.I. Lenin - “Destroy the family and you destroy society.”

There is a small group of liberals who believe, or claim to believe, that there was no greater obedience to Church teaching in the 1950s and 1960s, there was, and not just from Catholics but from all levels of society. They claim that was a fiction. I was there and I lived it.

The term ‘cultural Catholic’ is a modern liberal invention. A made up term designed to confuse those who do not know better.

Learn. Know who to trust. And be aware that it is to the advantage of some to lie to further what they believe in.

Peace,
Ed

 

[GratefulDad]

Here are some of the results of post Vatican II and the US Bishops Conference leadership.

townhall.com/columnists/PatBuchanan/2002/12/11/an_index_of_catholicisms_decline

mostholyfamilymonastery.com/29_Figures.pdf

“While the number of priests in the United States more than doubled to 58,000, between
1930 and 1965, since then that number has fallen to 45,000. By 2020, there will be only
31,000 priests left, and more than half of these priests will be over 70.

“-- Ordinations. In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained in the United States. In 2002,
the number was 450. In 1965, only 1 percent of U.S. parishes were without a priest.
Today, there are 3,000 priestless parishes, 15 percent of all U.S. parishes. – Seminarians.
Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700, a
decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the 600 seminaries that were operating in 1965
have now closed.

“-- Sisters. In 1965, there were 180,000 Catholic nuns. By 2002, that had fallen to 75,000
and the average age of a Catholic nun is today 68. In 1965, there were 104,000 teaching
nuns. Today, there are 8,200, a decline of 94 percent since the end of Vatican II.
.
.
At the opening of Vatican II, reformers were all the rage. They were going to lead us out
of our Catholic ghettos by altering the liturgy, rewriting the Bible and missals,
abandoning the old traditions, making us more ecumenical, and engaging the world.
And their legacy? Four decades of devastation wrought upon the church, and the final
disgrace of a hierarchy that lacked the moral courage of the Boy Scouts to keep the
perverts out of the seminaries, and throw them out of the rectories and schools of Holy
Mother Church. Through the papacy of Pius XII, the church resisted the clamor to
accommodate itself to the world and remained a moral beacon to mankind. Since
Vatican II, the church has sought to meet the world halfway. 'Statistics tell us the
price of appeasement.”

By the way the US Conference of Catholic Bishops has only been around sense 1966, here is some more info on this organization.

youtube.com/watch?v=bXzulM17cLI&feature=related

 

[CradleCath]

Here are some of the results of post Vatican II and the US Bishops Conference leadership.

townhall.com/columnists/PatBuchanan/2002/12/11/an_index_of_catholicisms_decline

mostholyfamilymonastery.com/29_Figures.pdf

“While the number of priests in the United States more than doubled to 58,000, between
1930 and 1965, since then that number has fallen to 45,000. By 2020, there will be only
31,000 priests left, and more than half of these priests will be over 70.

“-- Ordinations. In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained in the United States. In 2002,
the number was 450. In 1965, only 1 percent of U.S. parishes were without a priest.
Today, there are 3,000 priestless parishes, 15 percent of all U.S. parishes. – Seminarians.
Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700, a
decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the 600 seminaries that were operating in 1965
have now closed.

“-- Sisters. In 1965, there were 180,000 Catholic nuns. By 2002, that had fallen to 75,000
and the average age of a Catholic nun is today 68. In 1965, there were 104,000 teaching
nuns. Today, there are 8,200, a decline of 94 percent since the end of Vatican II.
.
.
At the opening of Vatican II, reformers were all the rage. They were going to lead us out
of our Catholic ghettos by altering the liturgy, rewriting the Bible and missals,
abandoning the old traditions, making us more ecumenical, and engaging the world.
And their legacy? Four decades of devastation wrought upon the church, and the final
disgrace of a hierarchy that lacked the moral courage of the Boy Scouts to keep the
perverts out of the seminaries, and throw them out of the rectories and schools of Holy
Mother Church. Through the papacy of Pius XII, the church resisted the clamor to
accommodate itself to the world and remained a moral beacon to mankind. Since
Vatican II, the church has sought to meet the world halfway. 'Statistics tell us the
price of appeasement.”

By the way the US Conference of Catholic Bishops has only been around sense 1966, here is some more info on this organization.

youtube.com/watch?v=bXzulM17cLI&feature=related

Grateful Dad, I couldn’t watch the video because of some glitches in my new computer. However, I agree wholeheartedly with the suggestion to dismantle the USCCB. They are no more than a union of liberal members of the hierarchy & run the Church in the U.S. much like the Jimmy Hoffas ran other unions. Their 144 MILLION DOLLAR YEARLY BUDGET is ridiculous. Judie Brown, in her book, How Do We Save Those Damned Catholics, made the same suggestion re the USCCB in 2007.

I DISagree with EdWest that all of the problems in the Church today were caused by society. While it’s true that society has been going to hell in a handbasket since, at least, the sixties, it’s also true that before Vatican II the Catholic Church had never paralleled society. It’s purpose was to LEAD society. I was 20 when Vatican II began, 25 when we began to get a glimpse of what had been going on in Rome those past 5 yrs., I was 27 when the council was over.

Before that time, Catholics KNEW that they were supposed to be different. ** We’d been taught that Catholics are in **the world, not **of **the world. I had been through 12 yrs. of parochial school & I knew the Mass, I knew the Bible & I thought I knew the Catholic Church. To tell you the truth, I was proud of being “different” & proud of being Catholic.

The second Vatican Council, or the “spirit thereof” must take responsibility for the removal from our Churches of anything that spoke of Catholic piety. That includes the statues that seemed to bother our “separated brethren” so much, the Communion Rail (really, kneeling with one’s tongue protruding to receive Christ was so “old Catholic”…that truly embarrassed the Bishops in power at the time).

From Vatican II came the notion of a false ecumenicism, a “trying to be like Protestants”, so that they could accept our faith. The results are converts who were not taught the basics about being Catholic & Catholics who were ostracized & ridiculed for practicing the “old ways”. Rosaries were no longer mentioned from the pulpit, nor was sin. Benediction, Novenas & the Tridentine Mass were forgotten. Talk about an identity crisis!!! By the time the 70’s rolled around, the confusion had become toxic.

 

[edwest2]

Grateful Dad, I couldn’t watch the video because of some glitches in my new computer. However, I agree wholeheartedly with the suggestion to dismantle the USCCB. They are no more than a union of liberal members of the hierarchy & run the Church in the U.S. much like the Jimmy Hoffas ran other unions. Their 144 MILLION DOLLAR YEARLY BUDGET is ridiculous. Judie Brown, in her book, How Do We Save Those Damned Catholics, made the same suggestion re the USCCB in 2007.

I DISagree with EdWest that all of the problems in the Church today were caused by society. While it’s true that society has been going to hell in a handbasket since, at least, the sixties, it’s also true that before Vatican II the Catholic Church had never paralleled society. It’s purpose was to LEAD society. I was 20 when Vatican II began, 25 when we began to get a glimpse of what had been going on in Rome those past 5 yrs., I was 27 when the council was over.

Before that time, Catholics KNEW that they were supposed to be different. ** We’d been taught that Catholics are in **the world, not **of **the world. I had been through 12 yrs. of parochial school & I knew the Mass, I knew the Bible & I thought I knew the Catholic Church. To tell you the truth, I was proud of being “different” & proud of being Catholic.

The second Vatican Council, or the “spirit thereof” must take responsibility for the removal from our Churches of anything that spoke of Catholic piety. That includes the statues that seemed to bother our “separated brethren” so much, the Communion Rail (really, kneeling with one’s tongue protruding to receive Christ was so “old Catholic”…that truly embarrassed the Bishops in power at the time).

From Vatican II came the notion of a false ecumenicism, a “trying to be like Protestants”, so that they could accept our faith. The results are converts who were not taught the basics about being Catholic & Catholics who were ostracized & ridiculed for practicing the “old ways”. Rosaries were no longer mentioned from the pulpit, nor was sin. Benediction, Novenas & the Tridentine Mass were forgotten. Talk about an identity crisis!!! By the time the 70’s rolled around, the confusion had become toxic.

There is no connection between Vatican II and the sexual revolution, the opening of adult bookstores, topless go-go bars, the National Organization for Women and porn on cable in the 1980s plus No-Fault Divorce. If you study history from 1968 till today, it’s all there. Hippies, radicals, radical feminists, it’s all there.

I was in Catholic school in the early 1970s, I don’t know where you’re getting your information. I never wanted to be like a Protestant. I didn’t even know any Protestants.

Peace,
Ed

 

[mick321]

**
Trojan Horse in the City of God:
How Godlessness Crept into the Sanctuary-
And How to Thrust It Out Again
Dietrich Von Hildebrand
**

 

[brotherhrolf]

I don’t believe there is any connection between the cultural revolution and the Church other than the liberals got their way and the bishops did little to stop the abuses or to stand up for the Faith. Yet, I can clearly remember Archbishop Rummel of New Orleans who publicly excommunicated three people (one a prominent local politician) for their opposition to the integration of Catholic schools in 1962. I shake my head in wonder why the bishops have not taken a more courageous stand against some of our politicians today.

 

[CradleCath]

There is no connection between Vatican II and the sexual revolution

, the opening of adult bookstores, topless go-go bars, the National Organization for Women and porn on cable in the 1980s plus No-Fault Divorce. If you study history from 1968 till today, it’s all there. Hippies, radicals, radical feminists, it’s all there.

I’ve been reading your posts in several threads & have seen you blame the state the Church is in right now…on society in general. I, for one, am a little tired of everything bad that happens, being blamed on society. A girl has an abortion & it’s the fault of society & NOW. A kid ends up a drug addict & it’s because society didn’t get him out of an abusive home, etc. etc ad infinitum. We all have wills & we choose how we’ll respond to influences around us.

This thread is about understanding the pre-Vatican II Church. The pre-Vatican II Church would have NOT kept silent while “free love” was glorified & kids were killed at Kent State.
If an adult bookstore had been opened in my city, before Vatican II, we would have heard “pounding on the pulpit”. From what I can see from your various posts, one saying that you were a senior in high school in 1973, you were born in the mid 50’s & would have been around 5 yrs. old when Vatican II was convened. I was 19 & grew up in the pre-Vatican II Church. My parents (& the parents of my friends) kept a sharp eye on the “Index Librorum Prohibitorum”. (list of books judged by the Church to have a detrimental affect on Catholics.) & the Legion of Decency list of movies judged to be indecent. I remember going to see one of these films during my teenage years…it was Auntie Mame…figuring that my parents wouldn’t find out. They did & I was grounded for a month.

Society is not to blame for the empty pews in Catholic Churches today. It’s not the reason that 69,000 priests have left the priesthood since 1964. Society is not to blame for the many, MANY years when the rosary was not mentioned from the pulpit, liturgical dancers filled the Sanctuary, the priesthood of the ordained became blended with the priesthood of the faithful. No, we did that to ourselves in the name of ecumenicism, of aggiornamento, of recognizing the value of “modern man”…in the name of the Spirit of Vatican II.

On the other hand, the second Vatican council must take responsibility for some of societies fall during the last 40 yrs. And here is the part that NOONE seems to get:
The Catholic Church had always been a bastion of morality not only for Catholics, but for the world. We led, we did not follow. Why do you think we were so hated during the 19th century in America?

I was in Catholic school in the early 1970s, I don’t know where you’re getting your information. I never wanted to be like a Protestant. I didn’t even know any Protestants.

I’m getting my info from 27 yrs. of living in the Catholic Church pre-Vatican II…from studying the ambiguous documents of the council & comparing them to the actual results of the council. I’m getting my info from actually LIVING the years before the council.

btw., NONE of** us **wanted to be “like a Protestant”. It was the most powerful of the liberal council fathers, the western European hierarchy & theologians who desired that. One of them, the man who rewrote our Mass said, “We must remove from our Liturgy everything that might be a stumbling block for our separated brethren”…thus the dumbed down, banal Novus Ordo was born. The sermons turned into sweet little homilies & our Churches began to look (& feel) like gymnasiums. Confession was out, Communion (without it) was in. Our beautiful Gregorian Chant gave way to “Gift of Finest Wheat”,

www.angelqueen.org/articles/04-02_bugnini.shtml - Similar

 

[edwest2]

I was a little older than you indicate during Vatican II.

Porn was difficult to get. It was usually behind the counter and you had to be 21. A grumpy looking man would give you the once-over if you asked for it. The Legion of Decency was doing great work. I remember some of my favorite science fiction films making reference to God: the Day the Earth Stood Still, Robinson Crusoe on Mars and Forbidden Planet. “The Lord sure makes beautiful planets.”

We would drive along a particular street before Christmas to see the beautiful and elaborate Christmas decorations. We were taught to have respect for all ages. To say hello to everybody. Our neighborhood consisted of families. Divorce was rare. Abortion was rare. There was a Nativity in front of the local City Hall.

Playboy was pushing the Playboy Philosophy and it was all about sex. Their Sex and the Cinema celebrated more and more sexuality in movies. We were against it. We were told to stay away from it. Catholic girls were told that their skirts had to cover their knees. Catholic boys like me had to wear a tie and a suit jacket in school. The more casually dressed students at the local public school threatened to get into fights with us.

Television reflected our standards. A man in a suit and tie would appear to assure viewers that the Standards and Practices Department watched every program to make sure they “were suitable for the entire family.” The TV switched off after the 11 o’clock news, but not before showing a beautiful silver jet flying through the sky while a voice over read a poem that ended with “And I touched the face of God.”

A Catholic was in the White House in 1963. I saw President Kennedy pass in a motorcade on Michigan Avenue.

I have a copy of a booklet titled The 2nd Vatican Council, published in 1962. It outlined the issues facing the Church of the day.

In the meantime, a full-scale assault was being planned against the Church. Vatican II ended up as the scapegoat.

See this cover story from TIME magazine from 1970.

time.com/time/covers/0,16641,19700223,00.html

• cont. -

 

[edwest2]

The attack would manifest itself as Second Wave Feminism.

The Feminine Mystique by Betty Friedan is published in 1963. This is the same person who referred to the family as a “comfortable Concentration Camp.”

The miniskirt was considered scadalous.

The storm hit in 1968 when Pope Paul VI published Humanae Vitae warning Catholic men and women about the greater temptation involved with artificial contraception, especially The Pill. It was believed at the time that you could have sex and there would be no pregnancy, tecnically making it easier to “cheat” and not get into trouble.

We all held the bedrock belief that dating did not involve sex. If the girl got pregnant, you were responsible and did the right thing. There was courtship, there was engagement, there was talking to her Dad about your plans for the future. Her Dad had been young once and knew about the blinding effects of hormones. He could provide the needed perspective to ensure his daughter did not end up with a lazy, shiftless and unambitious guy.

By the time I graduated in the 1970s, I watched a few of my Catholic friends try illegal drugs. I told one: “Why are you using that stuff? It can hurt you.” I was assured then, and I still hear it today, that it would not hurt you. That belief would persist over the years even though people O.D.ed and we knew these people.

Why, I asked myself in the 1970s, are there Adult Bookstores? Who asked for them? Who legalized them. There were protests but people cried First Amendment. Censorship is evil! Lawyers were paid money to convince judges it was OK. The lawyers won even though it was a clear violation of community standards. Strident voices, still heard today, said, “You can’t tell me what I can’t read.” Very little ‘reading’ was actually involved.

We were told not to trust anyone over 30. Down with the Establishment! Being a Conformist was bad. Jimi Hendrix told us so. Woodstock! And what did a Hippie friend tell me? “I don’t need no piece of paper to live with my old lady.” Marriage received no respect. Fornication was just “natural acts.”

And the media? All those words you couldn’t say on TV in the '50s and '60s? You can hear them all today.

People tried to practice self-restraint as opposed to the Hippie: “Let it all hang out, man.”

Do you think a woman drinking liquor out of a bottle while driving would have been shown on TV just a few years before? Of course not. But there was Sue Ellen on Dallas doing just that.

By the '90s, I turn on ABC and I see bare butts on NYPD Blue? Why? And profanity. Why?

I hear rap talking dirty and violent. I hear pervert shock jocks talking dirty too. Did I mention porn on cable in Motels in the '80s. Who decided that was OK? Would you spend the night with your family there?

For decades, it was pushing the envelope, breaking down barriers, breaking down taboos, all the way to the internet where whatever sick and twisted idea is on display 24/7.

And the whole time it was about highly paid lawyers, organized crime and big business - especially Hollywood - involvement. A lot was to be made from porn addicts and drug addicts and TV addicts.

What used to be called Art Films shed their disguise. In the '50s and '60s, laws were about rights and morality. Now it’s “keep your morality off my body.” People turned away from the truth. Why? Because in the '50s and '60s we trusted the people around us, our government and our leaders. So when the wolves showed up, we did not recognize them.

Before abortion was legalized, we heard all thses heartfelt pleas about women dying from back-alley abortions. Please! Have compassion! Only to be used in cases of rape and incest and to save the mother.

To this day, some of the same people, along with their sons and daughters, are in universities or still belong or are somehow involved with the same groups that sprung up in the '60s and '70s.

• cont. -

 

[edwest2]

From day one, it was no stable families, no marriage, sex with anybody and smoke dope.

Where are we today on all of these issues as Catholics?

About half of all marriages end in divorce.

How many participated in abortion?

All I know is, people began to listen to the wrong people, to let themselves try things they shouldn’t have.

Vatican II caused none of it. On Catholic Radio, Father Ricardo spoke about Vatican II. How one thing that did come out of it was a call for a greater participation by the laity. Each one of us is a missionary for the faith to our friends, our coworkers, and strangers. But we were promised ‘more fun’ and ‘freedom’ by people who lied to us.

Peace,
Ed

 

[reggieM]

I want to focus on this answer first.
If the Catholics of the pre-Vatican II Church were as educated as has been portrayed (by some), how did, what was underground, rise so quickly to the top?

They were not as educated as some have portrayed.
Remember:

Theology classes were reserved for seminarians.
Theology was taught entirely in the Latin language.
Most theology books were not translated into the vernacular
Permission was required to read anything placed on the Index of Forbidden Books – that kind of apologetical work was almost entirely reserved for the clergy
Canon law forbade the publication of any Catholic theology without permission from the bishop (an open Catholic forum like this would be forbidden).

In order for priests to become fully fluent in a broad scope of theological work, they would have to read and write and be taught most of it in the Latin language. Very few priests had that kind of fluency in Latin (how many years of Latin study does it take to be able to understand dogmatic theology texts read in Latin?).

On the basics of the faith - the Catholic people were much better educated. The fundamentals were driven into the people in a solid fashion – repeated in sermons.

But a primary criticism of the pre-Vatican II days was that the teaching was very limited and simplistic. People did know the basics, but questions that stretched their understanding caused problems because they didn’t know more than that – and had little access to more advanced material.

That’s why, for many, they thought Latin language at Mass was nearly and infallible teaching. Once it changed, then the Catholic faith had collapsed (as one example). Abstinence on Fridays was another thing like that.

Once that kind of freedom was permitted, people lost the faith. Theologians were far worse because they just offered unwarranted speculations – abusing freedom.

The freedoms were necessary (we’re using them right now on CAF). But some unscrupulous teachers (they’re products of the pre-Vatican II Church) abused freedoms and concocted false teachings (actually just revived modernism which was quiet until then).

 

[edwest2]

We had a Religion class. I still have one of my textbooks. I also have a book from The Catholic Social Studies Series titled, Christian Principles and National Problems. The editor for this series was the Rev. Charles Mahoney, Ph.D. This book is authored by the Rev. Anthony L. Ostheimer, Ph.D. of the Roman Catholic High School, Philadelphia, P.A. and the Rev. John P. Delaney, who is the Associate Editor of America. It is copyright 1945.

From the Preface:

“A study of the social problems of American life under the guiding light of the social doctrine of the Church must constute a vital part of the education of our Catholic high school students today. It will be largely through a well informed Catholic populace that American public opinion will be directed toward the acceptance of the Christian solution of contemporary social evils.”

Peace,
Ed

 

[brotherhrolf]

Originally Posted by JustaServant
I want to focus on this answer first.
If the Catholics of the pre-Vatican II Church were as educated as has been portrayed (by some), how did, what was underground, rise so quickly to the top?

Excuse me. What part of we submitted to the magesterium of the Church do you not understand? My father worked two jobs to insure that my brother, sister, and myself got a Catholic education. He was not Catholic but a protestant.

Y’all have no idea…It was inconceivable to dissent against HMC back then. Have I not told you how I saw Archbishop Rummel of New Orleans excommunicate three people (one of which was a prominent local politician) bell, book, and candle (read that, people!) on the steps of the Chancery live on TV in glorious black and white because they opposed the integration of Catholic schools in the archdiocese in 1962? What? Were we supposed to rise up in the pews and question what was being done?

Anyone who grew up in the era knows that we did not question the magesterium of HMC back then. So when the changes to the Mass that we grew up with came, we accepted what came down from the pulpit. It is grossly, grossly, insulting to insinuate that we should have abided by the precepts of today. We would no more voice our disapproval to our local pastor much less voice our disapproval to our bishop or archbishop.

I was in a Catholic boys high school from 8th grade to 12th. (1964 - 1969). The brothers did a fine job with me, thank you very much. We spent our entire junior year studying the plan of salvation via scripture (oh, yeah, no we Catholics did not read scripture back then). We covered Aquinas’ “Proof of the Existence of God” in my senior year.

The fact that you can dissent to your bishop today did not exist back then. The spirit of Vatican II did that. It was inconceivable back then.

Let’s quit the mythology. I have no need to lie. For the folks out in the pew, every new pronouncement came down as “the word of God”. We submitted to the magesterium of the Church. Don’t project what goes on today with what went on back then.

Do you honestly think that the senior class was consulted about having to sing two Simon and Garfunkle top 20 hit songs at my graduation Mass in 1969? Give me a break!
It was a done deal and I have deeply resented it for the last 40 years.

 

[reggieM]

The fact that nobody (in the U.S.) dissented against the Magisterium back then was due to a number of factors. Things were different in Europe, where Mass attendance was declining for decades before the Council. Dissent against the Magisterium in Europe certainly took more dramatic forms in the various (often bloody) revolutions by Catholics against the hierarchy.

Here in America we had a more placid and unified faith-atmosphere (in the '50s and early '60s). The bishops took no-nonsense and the faithful gave them none. Facing decades of anti-Catholic harrassment had given the Church some strength. The bishops ran a tight-ship and the Church was respected, even if not loved. Seminaries and religious orders were attracting quality candidates. The Church seemed unshakable.

So, to the question – how could dissent and chaos emerge from this very same structure?
There are many sources to consult on this. I’d recommend the once-liberal, Catholic periti at Vatican II’s book, The Salt of the Earth where he explains the pre-Council issues.

The dissent and permissivness which lead to oben rebellion, chaos and all sorts of destruction came, in part, from the shocking awareness that some of what was (wrongly) considered absolute and almost divinely-revealed, was now considered an option.

We shouldn’t forget, in the U.S. especially, the breakdown of ethnic Catholicism which occurred at the same time as Vatican II (and was not caused by it). American culture had a major impact on the world at the time (and a huge impact on V2’s Religious Liberty document). The European model was fading away and the American model of personal freedom, secular government and ecumenism was on the cutting edge.
This meant that the traditional, ethnic-parishes, which kept a lot of the cultural traditions of Catholicism were breaking apart in favor of mixed-ethnicity, “American” parishes.

The struggle was – how to communicate with people of diverse ethnic backgrounds (German, Polish, Irish, English, Italian, Hispanic) in a way that was “American” and not those European cultures? What kind of American-Catholic culture did all of those groups share? The answer was really “none”. It had to be created from scratch. Just because the Church was dominated by Irish clergy didn’t mean that the American Catholic culture would be an ethnically Irish thing.

That was a very big issue in the '60s when the younger generation did not want to be considered ethnic any more. They wanted to be generic Americans.

So, they gravitated to American pop-culture. Woodstock was a lame attempt at creating this new, generic, secular, non-ethnic culture. Supposedly, everybody was “unified” by this liberation and decadence. Rollicking in the mud and embracing one another – it was a new method of showing an American oneness that put aside (supposedly) ethnic barriers. The civil rights issues were a major impact.

The Church went from being a leader to being a follower. It had to try to create some kind of American Catholic culture that everyone could relate to and share. It couldn’t be German songs or Italian festivals – because those didn’t bind everyone.

So, they thought that pop music could be sanctified and represent the cultural unity that the Church was looking for. Thus, Simon and Garfunkel or Bob Dylan songs were “the music of the people”. Catholic hymn-writers have been struggling ever since to capture vernacular songs that could be memorable and actually loved by the people.

That has not happened. But at least they learned that those pop songs had no lasting value or staying power (or sacrality).

 

[reggieM]

Another thing that we shoudn’t overlook is that in the 50s and 60s, Catholic schools in America were becoming more expensive and more exclusive. Neither my mother or father’s families could afford to send their kids to the local Catholic school because it was too expensive for them – as much as they would have liked it. The Catholic high-schools had entrace exams and took only the highest performing students. They were even more expensive.

None of that is bad in itself. But that did leave a lot of Catholics relying on religious instruction after school, which was not very comprehensive (with the time-allotted, it could hardly be that).

Catholics were not encouraged to simply read the Bible on their own (for good reason, in my opinion). The Church’s lectionary was fixed with the same Epistles and Gospels for the 52 Sundays each year. A benefit was they were repeated frequently, but a drawback was a too-narrow scope of Scripture.

That’s why the OF lectionary has a much larger scope for Scripture selections on the 3-year cycle. Those who changed it thought it was an improvement over the old Missal.

The laity didn’t ask for that, or other liturgical changes. But they weren’t accustomed to demanding or asking for anything like that anyway. They didn’t believe they had the right to question the liturgy – it was considered a sacred thing, handed down from ages past. Some would complain privately, but nobody was going to go to the pastor and complain about Mass. They might complain silently by avoding the longer, Solemn High Masses and preferring the short Low Mass – things like that.

The clergy had a paternal attitude. When the changes came, the clergy imposed them thinking it was for the good of the flock. They didn’t ask permission or seek a vote from the faithful. The clergy were taught that they were the leaders and they had the right and duty to command obedience. The faithful followed – and most believed that the changes (even if they didn’t like them) were for the good.

Latin Mass advocates in the early 1970s were a radical break from the norm. But the Latin Mass movement really originated and blossomed in France where the idea of arguing back, dissenting, questioning and not-bowing-down to the clergy was a very common part of the life-stream of French Catholicism for some centuries.

We didn’t have that attitude here in the States. For the most part, we were totally submissive. For good reason – the clergy and the Church were our protection against hostile forces in the U.S. since the Church was planted here, and we weren’t going to turn against them.

 

[CradleCath]

They were not as educated as some have portrayed.

Please cite a source for this. I was educated grades 1-6 by Benedictine nuns, grades 7-8 by the Precious Blood & attended an Academy of the Sacred Heart during my high school years.

For college, I went to a State University. It was upon entering the University that I realized that those who had attended Catholic schools were SO much better prepared for College.

Remember:

 

[brotherhrolf]

It was upon entering the University that I realized that those who had attended Catholic schools were SO much better prepared for College.

Wasn’t that the truth? We had far better vocabularies, could write essays, and were far better read. DW teaches freshman English at a local state university and she has remarked to me that the kids from Catholic high schools are better prepared.

It was part of our First Communion preparation. That continued throughout elementary school. I could translate all of the old Latin hymns…Tantum Ergo, Stabat Mater Dolorosa, the Ave Maria during my elementary school years & many of the prayers of the Mass. My brothers could translate the Latin responses they said as servers. Intense study of Latin began in my Freshman year at the Academy (high school) I’m not even certain that today’s Catholics even realize that the Ave Maria is the Hail Mary in Latin. Amazing, isn’t it

I wanted to study Latin in high school but my parents forbade it because “it wasn’t practical” but you know something? It is amazing how close Spanish and Latin are. But no, they did not begin teaching us Latin in preparation for our First Communions and we didn’t use it all during grade school nor were we required to memorize words, spelling, or etymology of the word in those pesky Word Power books that we had from 8th grade to 12th grade. It is quite shocking to learn the sheer number of English words that have their roots in Latin.

Canon law forbade the publication of any Catholic theology without permission from the bishop

Is this not still in effect? As in the Nihil Obstat (Nothing objectionable) and the Imprimateur ? Why was this so unusual before Vatican II and not now?

I get very tired of those who put down the pre-Vatican II Catholic Church & it’s members in order to somehow glorify the Novus Ordo Church. If one cannot defend post-Vatican II Catholicism without doing that, one shouldn’t defend it at all…especially not in the Traditional Catholic forum.

Brava! I am getting tired of all the myths being used to tell us what we did and didn’t know and did and didn’t believe.

Another thing that we shoudn’t overlook is that in the 50s and 60s, Catholic schools in America were becoming more expensive and more exclusive. Neither my mother or father’s families could afford to send their kids to the local Catholic school because it was too expensive for them – as much as they would have liked it. The Catholic high-schools had entrace exams and took only the highest performing students. They were even more expensive.

The more I read on these forums, the more I am convinced that New Orleans had to have been the exception except that so many others on these forums echo my experience. New Orleans was and is predominately Catholic. The public schools were and are bad. To this day the question among New Orleanians is “where did you go to high school”. There were/are intense rivalries between the Catholic high schools and it is amazing the number of job opportunities that happen as alumni help fellow alumni.

Entrance exams? Yes. They were used to classify students according to their abilities. I went to my 40th class reunion and the brothers evidently made some pretty wise decisions. It was a small class - only 150 guys. And, after 40 years, it was apparent that they did make the correct decisions. Another funny thing - one of my classmates and a friend that I have stayed in touch with over the last 40 years is a Brother of the Sacred Heart; another is a diocesan priest; and another is in formation to become a deacon. He and I went to grade school and were altar boys together even though we “didn’t know what we were saying”.

There were always provisions for those who could not pay tuition then and now. My alumni association has a fund to help and I know for a fact that one of my classmates lived in a housing project.

 

[edwest2]

My parents were immigrants with barely a 7th Grade education. My mother spoke five languages, my father four. Our classes in Catholic school were very demanding. We carried school bags with books. We had homework every day.

Regarding the present, there is a local Church that flies the American and Polish flags. There are Polish festivals. There were masses in Polish and English at my old parish.

Yes, the radicals wanted us to forget our past, our ethnic heritage and become cookie cutter “modern” Americans.

There were no Catholic organizations for sex, drugs and rock 'n roll.

There were no Catholic organizations for strip clubs and topless bars.

Lawyers, who were given lots of money, went to judges and fought for these things. And the judges gave it to them. In the mid-1980s, pervert musician Frank Zappa went before the government to argue against any form of censorship against music.

Organized crime, lawyers, judges, and even parts of the American government gradually became poisoned as the Body of Christ gradually became poisoned in the West.

The words you couldn’t say on TV had to be promoted. Indecency and immorality had to be promoted. Alternative lifestyles had to be promoted. Now, today, more sin is on its way to being legalized.

It was a power struggle between good and evil, and for about 40 years, evil gradually gained the upper hand. Things are gradually turning around now. But as the Bride of Christ, the Church is not going to go and slap people down, not right away. Just like the incident at Notre Dame, the Bishop wanted to give Father Jenkins an opportunity for dialogue. He wanted to show him love and compassion as Christ showed love and compassion.

Yes, we wanted to be obedient to the Church. We know who some of the troublemakers were from back then. Pope John Paul II stripped Hans Kung of his ability to teach theology. Once again, consider how God is described in the Bible. Slow to anger, quick to forgiveness.

I really think that once people began to accumulate a list of serious sins, it became harder and harder for them to go back to the Church. That is why the Church is inviting these people back. I’ve met too many people with two or three divorces under their belt, an abortion or two, and other things that no doubt weigh on them. If anyone who is burdened is reading this, it’s time to go back. The Church is waiting for you.

Peace,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

Wasn’t that the truth? We had far better vocabularies, could write essays, and were far better read. DW teaches freshman English at a local state university and she has remarked to me that the kids from Catholic high schools are better prepared.

I wanted to study Latin in high school but my parents forbade it because “it wasn’t practical” but you know something? It is amazing how close Spanish and Latin are. But no, they did not begin teaching us Latin in preparation for our First Communions and we didn’t use it all during grade school nor were we required to memorize words, spelling, or etymology of the word in those pesky Word Power books that we had from 8th grade to 12th grade. It is quite shocking to learn the sheer number of English words that have their roots in Latin.

Is this not still in effect? As in the Nihil Obstat (Nothing objectionable) and the Imprimateur ? Why was this so unusual before Vatican II and not now?

Brava! I am getting tired of all the myths being used to tell us what we did and didn’t know and did and didn’t believe.

The more I read on these forums, the more I am convinced that New Orleans had to have been the exception except that so many others on these forums echo my experience. New Orleans was and is predominately Catholic. The public schools were and are bad. To this day the question among New Orleanians is “where did you go to high school”. There were/are intense rivalries between the Catholic high schools and it is amazing the number of job opportunities that happen as alumni help fellow alumni.

Entrance exams? Yes. They were used to classify students according to their abilities. I went to my 40th class reunion and the brothers evidently made some pretty wise decisions. It was a small class - only 150 guys. And, after 40 years, it was apparent that they did make the correct decisions. Another funny thing - one of my classmates and a friend that I have stayed in touch with over the last 40 years is a Brother of the Sacred Heart; another is a diocesan priest; and another is in formation to become a deacon. He and I went to grade school and were altar boys together even though we “didn’t know what we were saying”.

There were always provisions for those who could not pay tuition then and now. My alumni association has a fund to help and I know for a fact that one of my classmates lived in a housing project.

Thank you. A close friend of mine came from a poor family. His parents struggled but they got him into Catholic School. Ho owns a business today. My family was only a little better. My mom took odd jobs in the neighborhood, gardening, and so on, to pick up a little money. We did without at times regarding certain things, but we got a Catholic education. People are not used to sacrificing. People are not used to doing without. People who are Catholics need to understand that sacrifices are sometimes necessary.

Peace,
Ed

 

[brotherhrolf]

I did not have an ethnic experience to the extent that some of y’all did. We were Irish, French, Spanish, and Italian but we were all Catholic. We all cross-celebrated festivals, etc. In fact, I have a newspaper photo of me from 1960 (blond haired, blue eyed) serving as crucifer leading the St. Rosalie procession with all these nice little old Sicilian ladies dressed in black watching. My godfather was Sicilian. There is even an Irish-Italian association which hosts a combined St. Patrick’s/St. Joseph’s day parade.

My father was an aircraft mechanic by day and serviced/repaired gas pump counters at night. We did without a lot - education was that important. I am the first person on either side of the family to get a degree as did my brother, sister, and our cousins. We have been in New Orleans since the 1830’s so we have fulfilled the “American dream”.

Yes, it was a struggle to put our two through Catholic school and we certainly have done without a lot of things. But my oldest has gotten his degree and is in grad school (both DW and I have MAs). Youngest is still in college but has a lot of medical problems which have really set him back. We have raised them to honor the traditions of our ancestors - no generic American for us.