War and Christianity

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alibaba

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Hello,

I’m sure this question is asked every once in a while, but I was never able to find a satisfactory answer, so I hope you can help me out here.

My question in essence is this: how come the vast majority of Christians don’t seem like they’re very much opposed to war?

Rather, it appears to me as if a great deal of Christians, especially in the US, tend to be pro war.

I don’t get it. Christ had a pretty clear stance on war and violence.

“But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.”
-Matthew 5:39

I can’t recall Jesus saying even once that sometimes you have to take out your sword and go slaughter your enemies (let me know if I’m wrong, though).

How do you view the topic of war as a Christian? And how do you see Christians who support war?

Do you have a down-to-earth approach, a la “we have to use military force in order to defend our country because it’s not like faith will save us” or do you have some kind of biblical justification (do refer only to the New Testament, please!).

Thank you for your time.
 
alibaba said:
Hello,

I’m sure this question is asked every once in a while, but I was never able to find a satisfactory answer, so I hope you can help me out here.

My question in essence is this: how come the vast majority of Christians don’t seem like they’re very much opposed to war?

Rather, it appears to me as if a great deal of Christians, especially in the US, tend to be pro war.

I don’t get it. Christ had a pretty clear stance on war and violence.

“But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.”
-Matthew 5:39

I can’t recall Jesus saying even once that sometimes you have to take out your sword and go slaughter your enemies (let me know if I’m wrong, though).

How do you view the topic of war as a Christian? And how do you see Christians who support war?

Do you have a down-to-earth approach, a la “we have to use military force in order to defend our country because it’s not like faith will save us” or do you have some kind of biblical justification (do refer only to the New Testament, please!).

Thank you for your time.
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I rely on the “just war” theory of the Vatican. I don’t know anyone who is pro-war, except guys like Magneto and General Zod.
 
He_Man said:
I rely on the “just war” theory of the Vatican. I don’t know anyone who is pro-war, except guys like Magneto and General Zod.
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Agreed, except I would call it “the just war doctrine of the Catholic Church” rather than “the ‘just war’ theory of the Vatican.”
 
Thank you for the reply He Man, although I don’t find the Just War doctrine very convincing to be honest.

It’s a very pragmatic, common-sense type approach, not much different from the secular concensus of what constitues a just war.

And I really can’t find anything in Christ’s teachings that could possibly justify a war. Because let’s remember what a war really is: it’s when thousands of young men go to a different country to kill countless other young men and often completely unrelated people including women and children whom they’ve never even met because someone who lived in that geographic location did something bad to someone else from another geographic location. It makes absolutely zero sense!

Just because our governments present war to us as something glorious and noble, or at the very least necessary, that doesn’t make it true.

I don’t mean to offend, but I feel it’s somewhat pathetic to alter Jesus’ teachings to support the modern concensus on war, rather than be consistent with what he taught and radically reject the war option.

But again, if anybody can explain to me how Christ’s teachings could be interpreted as being supportive of war, I would welcome if you could share your thoughts…
 
Thanks for the detailed answer, (name removed by moderator).

However, I don’t seem to see what you see…

Like I said before, I don’t really want to go into the Old Testament, but rather the teachings of Christ, so I’ll skip the OT parts.

As far as I know, Jesus never judged anybody solely by their occupation, but rather by their deeds.
A soldier can be a good man, but to say that therefore war in general is a-okay doesn’t follow, if you ask me.
To make it more clear, let’s consider the opposite scenario: if a doctor tortures and murders people mercilessly, does that make all of medicine evil? Of course not…

How? It’s simply an illustration he uses to make a point.

To be honest, I have no idea how to understand this passage or if it is even correct.
It is completely opposed to everything else he teaches and the context isn’t clear enough to allow for a decent interpretation. If there were more similar passages, it would definitely suggest that Jesus did not see all killing as intrinsically evil, or rather even sometimes as a good thing to do.
But I don’t think there are, so it makes more sense to see it as a wrong attribution to Jesus or perhaps even a later addition from someone else.

If you read this in context, it’s pretty obvious that this is not his point.
He was asking his disciples if everything was ready for the prophecy to be fulfilled and reminded them that they need swords. They gave him two and he said “It is enough.”, as in “the conditions have been met”.

With two swords, it’s clear that he didn’t intend to prepare them for a fight…

Later, one of his disciples uses a sword to resist Jesus’ arrest, but Jesus stops him and heals the man he wounded.
From this, I can see no encouragement from him for using the sword to fight off aggressors. Quite the opposite - Jesus heals one of his enemies who have come to ultimately kill him. As usual, he treats his enemies extremely well.
 
Matthew 24:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

My interpretation of Jesus words are that wars will come and eventually pass or end.

Its great to see the seeds of freedom that war( operation Iraqi freedom) is slowly bringing.
 
alibaba said:
Hello,

I’m sure this question is asked every once in a while, but I was never able to find a satisfactory answer, so I hope you can help me out here.

My question in essence is this: how come the vast majority of Christians don’t seem like they’re very much opposed to war?

Rather, it appears to me as if a great deal of Christians, especially in the US, tend to be pro war.

I don’t get it. Christ had a pretty clear stance on war and violence.

“But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.”
-Matthew 5:39

I can’t recall Jesus saying even once that sometimes you have to take out your sword and go slaughter your enemies (let me know if I’m wrong, though).

How do you view the topic of war as a Christian? And how do you see Christians who support war?

Do you have a down-to-earth approach, a la “we have to use military force in order to defend our country because it’s not like faith will save us” or do you have some kind of biblical justification (do refer only to the New Testament, please!).

Thank you for your time.
Click to expand...
Sadly, I think you are right. But the Catholic bishops in America are some of the few Christians who are generally against war. Evangelicals are the stereotypical American Christian, not Catholics. Keep that in mind when posting on a Catholic forum.

That said, use the just war method outlined in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. 🙂
 
alibaba said:
How do you view the topic of war as a Christian? And how do you see Christians who support war?

Do you have a down-to-earth approach, a la “we have to use military force in order to defend our country because it’s not like faith will save us” or do you have some kind of biblical justification (do refer only to the New Testament, please!).
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The tradition of pacifism has a long history in Christianity, although I don’t think it has ever been predominant in Christian theology.

I am not familiar with the situation in Germany, but here in the US there are several Protestant denominations which are collectively referred to as the “Peace Churches.” Members refuse to serve in the military or to aid in the military effort. Until the US recognized the right of conscientious objection, they often were sentenced to prison for refusing to aid the military.

A pacifist tradition does exist in the Catholic Chruch, although it isn’t very popular here at Catholic Answers Forums. It think this is largely because the most vocal members here are politically and culturally conservative. Still, we have groups such as Pax Christi, and priests or religious who get arrested for protesting the military, and famously there is the example of Dorothy Day who is being considered for sainthood.

As for your question regarding whether Christian support for war is merely pragmatic and perhaps indicates weak faith, I would refer you to Matthew 4:1-7
The Temptation of Jesus.
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1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.
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2b He fasted for forty days and forty nights,* and afterwards he was hungry.
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3 The tempter approached and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command that these stones become loaves of bread.”
Click to expand...
4* He said in reply, “It is written:
‘One does not live by bread alone,
but by every word that comes forth from the mouth of God.’”
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5* Then the devil took him to the holy city, and made him stand on the parapet of the temple,
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6 and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down. For it is written:
‘He will command his angels concerning you’
and ‘with their hands they will support you,
lest you dash your foot against a stone.’”
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7 Jesus answered him, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord, your God, to the test.’”
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usccb.org/bible/matthew/4/

As humans, we are responsible for acting prudently and not counting on God to rescue us from dangerous situations.

Reasonably, this would mean that in the face of an armed danger, if we have the ability to defend ourselves, we should do so.

Of course, the Peace Churches disagree and so do some individual Christian pacifists.
 
Thanks for the great reply Dale_M.

I suspect what bothers me most is the people in government who claim to be faithful Christians (this applies to most western countries) but behave nothing at all like Christ.

They seem to use Christianity whenever it’s convenient for them but completely ignore Jesus’ teachings and all of a sudden become “realistic” when behaving like Christ would not be advantageous for them.

It’s so prevalent that it doesn’t even seem to bother anyone anymore.

How can it be for example, that the “defense” industry in the US is as large and powerful as all defense industries in the rest of the world combined?
I see no reason not to possess weapons for personal defense but this obviously is military weaponry that is sold to war zones all over the world (it’s not like the US alone could ever use this many weapons - and if it did, that would be even more insane) and certainly not required for the defense of the nation.

Hoarding a crazy amount of weaponry, supporting foreign wars, invading countries on the other side of the world… Is that what a supposedly christian nation should really be doing?

Does this really not bother anyone else?
 
alibaba said:
Like I said before, I don’t really want to go into the Old Testament, but rather the teachings of Christ, so I’ll skip the OT parts.l.
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One thing to keep in mind is that the OT teaching ARE the teachings of Christ.

The God of the OT is the same God who stood on the Mount of the Beatitudes, and therefore, the teachings are (by definition) one and the same.

Each must be understood in the context of the other.

The same Christ who said “Love your neighbor” is the same Lord who spoke to Moses and ordered him to attack the Midianites ( Numbers 31)

It is the same God ( Father, Son and Holy Spirit, acting as one) , the same teaching. Old Testament and New.
 
Dale_M said:
A pacifist tradition does exist in the Catholic Chruch, although it isn’t very popular here at Catholic Answers Forums. It think this is largely because the most vocal members here are politically and culturally conservative. Still, we have groups such as Pax Christi, and priests or religious who get arrested for protesting the military, and famously there is the example of Dorothy Day who is being considered for sainthood.
.
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I would also point out that the Church has a militant tradition as well, in St. Martin of Tours, St. Louis of France, St. Sebastian, St. William of Gellone and St. Joan of Arc.

Pacifism is certainly a valid option for a Catholic in the path to sanctity, but so is leading or being soldiers in war, as evidenced by the Holy Saints referenced above.
 
I also follow the just war theory, which means I don’t find any of the wars the US has fought to be justified except the Revolutionary War.
 
I believe in self DEFENSE. I am against WAR. It seems to me the wars the USA have been engaging in recently are not one’s of self-defense. No one is running up my street ready to rape my wife and stomp in the head of my baby and shoot me in the head where I must take up arms as the only way to prevent it from happening.

A war on ‘terrorism’ is a falsehood. One can not have a war on terrorism legitimately. The reason is because terrorism is a MILITARY TATIC, like a flanking maneuver. One can not have a war on ‘flanking maneuvers’. And one can not have a war on terrorism. It is a PR scam to war profiteers can fleese the taxpayers by getting them to buy into the concept and thereby going along with being taxed to pay for this so called war.

Meanwhile, the powers that be use those tax monies to purchase the tools of war from their own companies in order to make a profit, then they use more tax monies to purchase the tools used to rebuild contries they wage the wars in to rebuild them. They get you both coming and going. And tell you it’s about protecting your freedom. It’s about them sheering you over and over to increase their own wealth. And real human beings, sons and daughters, mothers and fathers are being killed en mass during the process.

So I support self-defense to defend myself and others that I may be in the vacinity of that are about to be attacked, be it by an individual or by a group ‘waging war’. I do not support going around the globe and installing military bases in every country using money stolen from me to support such actions.
 
alibaba said:
Thank you for the reply He Man, although I don’t find the Just War doctrine very convincing to be honest.

It’s a very pragmatic, common-sense type approach, not much different from the secular concensus of what constitues a just war.

And I really can’t find anything in Christ’s teachings that could possibly justify a war. Because let’s remember what a war really is: it’s when thousands of young men go to a different country to kill countless other young men and often completely unrelated people including women and children whom they’ve never even met because someone who lived in that geographic location did something bad to someone else from another geographic location. It makes absolutely zero sense!

Just because our governments present war to us as something glorious and noble, or at the very least necessary, that doesn’t make it true.

I don’t mean to offend, but I feel it’s somewhat pathetic to alter Jesus’ teachings to support the modern concensus on war, rather than be consistent with what he taught and radically reject the war option.

But again, if anybody can explain to me how Christ’s teachings could be interpreted as being supportive of war, I would welcome if you could share your thoughts…
Click to expand...
Before continuing, why not actually tell us what Christ said about war?
 
alibaba said:
Thanks for the great reply Dale_M.

I suspect what bothers me most is the people in government who claim to be faithful Christians (this applies to most western countries) but behave nothing at all like Christ.

They seem to use Christianity whenever it’s convenient for them but completely ignore Jesus’ teachings and all of a sudden become “realistic” when behaving like Christ would not be advantageous for them.

It’s so prevalent that it doesn’t even seem to bother anyone anymore.

How can it be for example, that the “defense” industry in the US is as large and powerful as all defense industries in the rest of the world combined?
I see no reason not to possess weapons for personal defense but this obviously is military weaponry that is sold to war zones all over the world (it’s not like the US alone could ever use this many weapons - and if it did, that would be even more insane) and certainly not required for the defense of the nation.

Hoarding a crazy amount of weaponry, supporting foreign wars, invading countries on the other side of the world… Is that what a supposedly christian nation should really be doing?

Does this really not bother anyone else?
Click to expand...
But now you’re talking about military spending, which is a different matter entirely. Your original question was about war, in principle.

If your country were to be invaded by a foreign army, your citizens subjected to atrocities; in your view, what do then believe is the proper response?
 
JIB said:
Talk about picking nits.
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It’s not nitpicking. Theory is subject to discussion and revision. Doctrine is teaching and is definitive. By calling it a theory, one implies that one is free to accept or reject it (as with all theories). By properly calling it doctrine, one clearly indicates that it must be held.
 
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