War in Heaven

[TOP]

When did the war in heaven take place, as in Rev. Ch. 12? It seems like it happened right after Christ’s victory on the cross. Tim

 

[heisenburg]

My understanding… and this could be wrong so take it with a grain of salt… is that the war in heaven took place very soon after god created the Angels.

Explaination I have ehard goes something like this,

1. god creates the universe, and all the angels
2. God reveals to them (in heir own beatific vision) his over all plan for man, the universe, and such
3. Since the angels are able to process these things much better and faster than man, almost immediatly, there were angels that couldnt fathom man being above them, especially if they are to be the sinful creatures they are, so the angels that ouldnt understand revolted…

Everyhitn happened though very quickly…

sort of like this…

6:00:00 PM God creates the angels
6:00:01 PM God shares his plan
6:00:02 PM Angels Process the vision
6:00:03 PM Angels Revolt
6:00:04 PM Angels thrown in hell

Again… My understanding could be completely wrong… and correct me if it is… just how i understand it.

In Christ

 

[TOP]

The reason I ask is that in Job ch1:6- One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, satan also came among them.7 And the Lord said to satan, “Whence do you come?” Then satan answered the Lord and said “from roaming the earth and patrolling it”. Then after the war between satan and Micheal and their angels it says in Rev. ch12:10- Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have salvation and power come, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Anointed. For the accuser of our brothers is cast out, who accuses them before God day and night.11 They conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; love for life did not deter them from death.12 Therefore, rejoice, you heavens, and you who dwell in them. But woe to you, earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great fury, for he knows he has but a short time.” NAB. Any thoughts? Tim

 

[copland]

St. Caesarius of Arles believes that Satan was thrown out after the creation of the physical world, which would indicate that Satan was thrown out a long time ago. St. Victorinus understands this to happen in the future at the coming of the Antichrist. St. Bede and Primasius have a different take upon it. Here is a quote from St. Bede on this passage.

heaven

. The heaven signifies the Church, in which he says that Michael, with his angels, fights against the devil, for that, according to the will of God, he contends for the Church in her sojourning, by praying and ministering help; of whom Daniel (Dan. xii. 1) also said, that he would come to the aid of the Church in the last and most grievous affliction; from which they suppose that Antichrist is to be slain by him. And they are said to be his angels in the same way that our angels also are. For the Lord says, “Their angels do always behold the face of My Father,(St. Matt. xviii. 10)” the angels, that is, of those whose citizens they are. fought. The angels of Satan are not those alone who are like him in nature and will, but men who are entangled in their snares are also to be understood. The Venerable Bede Commentary on Revelation]***

I guess in this passage that we can have a futurist, preterist, historist, and an allegorical meaning.

 

[TOP]

Thanks for your response,
I have always thought that this war occured just after creation. But for some reason I now feel this war happened as a result of satans jealousy of Jesus. Maybe this transends time and did happen at creation, the birth and death of Christ and His victory by resurrection. Kind of like earth time compressed compared to eternity. Just a thought, Tim

 

[copland]

St. Thomas Aquinas’ catena on Luke has St. Cyril saying this about Satan and his fall happening when Jesus came.

CYRIL; Or else, I saw Satan as lightning fall from heaven, that is, from the highest power to the lowest impotence. For before the coming of our Savior, he had subdued the world to him, and was worshipped by all men. But when the only-begotten Word of God came down from heaven, he fell as lightning, seeing that he is trodden under foot by those who worship Christ. As it follows,

I really don’t agree with St. Victorinus about the war happening in the future at the end, because St. Jude in his epistle says that the angels that rebelled are kept in chains in Tartarus until the final Judgment.

St. Augustine brings an interesting thought.

AUG. The demons seeing souls go from hades to heaven, knew that the prince of this world was judged and, being brought to trial in the Savior’s cause, had lost all right to what he held. This was seen on our Savior’s ascension, but was declared plainly and openly in the descent of the Holy Ghost on the disciples.

 

[kleary]

Thanks for your response,
I have always thought that this war occured just after creation. But for some reason I now feel this war happened as a result of satans jealousy of Jesus. Maybe this transends time and did happen at creation, the birth and death of Christ and His victory by resurrection. Kind of like earth time compressed compared to eternity. Just a thought, Tim

Exactly… I read somewhere that Satan fell when he saw God becoming Man and dying on the cross for mankind… that is when he tempted Eve and how he fell.

Ken

 

[spauline]

just my two cents,

any text of Scripture, especially in the apoc, can be multialayered, that is, have many fulfillments. I believe I heard some Catholic apologist expert say that in regards to apoc lit, there can be an IMMEDIATE fulfillement, an INTERMEDIATE fulfillment, and a LONG-RANGE fulfillment. For example, the fourth beast of Daniel 7 could be, all at the same time:

I. The Seleucid Greek Dynasty and Antiochus IV (which persecuted Jews in IMMEDIATE context)

II. The Roman Empire (which persecuted Christians in an INTERMEDIATE context), and…

III. The Kingdom of Antichrist at very end of world (which will persecute the Church then in the most horrible way in a FAR REACHING fulfillment)

Similarly, there can be a sense in which the war in heaven initially symbolizes the fall of the angels that occurred in eterntiy prior to the creation of this world, and it can represent the war that the devil waged on Christians by way of Rome in the immediate aftermath of Christ’s ascension, a war which was lost since Catholicism conquered pagan Rome and reduced the devil’s spiritual supremacy over mankind that reigned in the world until Christianity conquered paganism. And I surmise there may be other meanings of later times.

Here’s a quote from an essay of mine:

In the beginnning of Rev. 12, prior to the birth of Christ, the dragon is in Heaven, symbolizing that he still holds the most significant reign over mankind, as the vast majority of the nations (i.e., basically everybody but the Jews) are in the spiritual darkness of paganism and sin.

After the child is born and ascends to heaven, a “great war” breaks out, meaning, now the devil is fighting to prevent the conversion of the world (or, at least in this case, the Roman Empire). But he loses because, as in Rev. 12, the martyrs “overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and they loved not their lives unto death.” Look at the victory speech in Rev 12 and compare it to the parallel passages in Daniel 2 and 7, which likewise deal with (on one level) the Church’s victory over pagan Rome. “…for now has come the salvation, and the power and the Kingdom of our God, for the accuser of our brethren has been cast out…”(rev 12) “… that the kingdom and the power and the dominion of our God should be given to the saints…” (Daniel (I’m paraphrasing, see end of Dan 2 and Dan 7)).

So the dragon has lost, that is, he was unable to prevent the conversion of the world, so he is now thrown to “earth”, that is, the Magisterium, which he now assaults (with attacks on its doctrinal development, much like the Illuminative phase of the saint in Catholic spirituality ) .

I can send you link for more if you like!

blessings!

 

[HailMary]

My understanding… and this could be wrong so take it with a grain of salt… is that the war in heaven took place very soon after god created the Angels.

Explaination I have ehard goes something like this,

1. god creates the universe, and all the angels
2. God reveals to them (in heir own beatific vision) his over all plan for man, the universe, and such
3. Since the angels are able to process these things much better and faster than man, almost immediatly, there were angels that couldnt fathom man being above them, especially if they are to be the sinful creatures they are, so the angels that ouldnt understand revolted…

Everyhitn happened though very quickly…

sort of like this…

6:00:00 PM God creates the angels
6:00:01 PM God shares his plan
6:00:02 PM Angels Process the vision
6:00:03 PM Angels Revolt
6:00:04 PM Angels thrown in hell

Again… My understanding could be completely wrong… and correct me if it is… just how i understand it.

In Christ

Yeah, that is a pretty accurate explanation.

 

[Fidelis]

It may helpful to keep in mind that the Book of Revelation is *apocalyptic *literature, a specialized form of prophecy. As such, it does not, and is not meant to, follow a strict linear timelime such as a history book, or even conventional forms of prophecy. Thus, some things that are described as happening in heaven are happening at the same time other things are described are happening on earth.

Revelation 12 is probably the best example of this. The battle between Satan and Michael sounds like it is happening at the same time as the Incarnation, but could have happened (and probably did) at the dawn of history. The two episodes may be juxtaposed to show how closely connected they are.

 

[franksv]

Would’nt the war/fall of some Angels have to happened before satan helped convince Eve and then Adam to eat from the tree of knowledge?

 

[spauline]

Would’nt the war/fall of some Angels have to happened before satan helped convince Eve and then Adam to eat from the tree of knowledge?

I would think so, yes. It seems implied in the catechism that the fall of the angels was at least prior to the fall of man. but, again, it’s mulitilayered. even though I don’t like all his beliefs, Fidelis has a point in that the book is multilayerd and multidimensional. We don’t always take it as a strict chronology.

 

[Fidelis]

I would think so, yes. It seems implied in the catechism that the fall of the angels was at least prior to the fall of man. but, again, it’s mulitilayered. even though I don’t like all his beliefs, Fidelis has a point in that the book is multilayerd and multidimensional. We don’t always take it as a strict chronology.

Hey! What’s wrong with the rest of my beliefs!

 

[Liberian]

Tim,

Given that Heaven operates on an eternal scale which is outside of our space and time, I don’t know that the question “when did the war in heaven take place” makes much sense. There really isn’t a good earthly sequence of events related to it such that we can say “it happened before this event” and “it happened after that event.”

• Liberian

 

[spauline]

Hey! What’s wrong with the rest of my beliefs!

I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to be mean, but I recall that you are one of the guys here who likes to trump preterism above all other layers of meaning. That’s what I hate! I’m not denying preterism as one viable layer of meaning. But the ultimate apoc meanings and mysteries cannot be solved MERELY by preterism. Ultimately, we must go beyond preterism and apply that level, amongst others, to ENTIRETY of Church history, so as to discern God’s Plan for the whole of Salvation History, including the WHOLE Church age, and not merely just the beginning of Church history (preterism) or its very end (futurism).

Also, if I recall correctly, you don’t like my historicist interpretation above, which I don’t know why? Is it that you don’t believe that the current apostasy will be healed and that this is already the beginning of the great apostasy? Or is ithat you reduce teh apoc to a mere idealism, and the issue of the Church recognizing when the great apostasy comes will not be known until Christ returns? Or is it something else?

 

[Fidelis]

I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to be mean, but I recall that you are one of the guys here who likes to trump preterism above all other layers of meaning. That’s what I hate! I’m not denying preterism as one viable layer of meaning.** But the ultimate apoc meanings and mysteries cannot be solved MERELY by preterism. Ultimately, we must go beyond preterism and apply that level, amongst others, to ENTIRETY of Church history, so as to discern God’s Plan for the whole of Salvation History, including the WHOLE Church age, and not merely just the beginning of Church history (preterism) or its very end (futurism).**

Also, if I recall correctly, you don’t like my historicist interpretation above, which I don’t know why? Is it that you don’t believe that the current apostasy will be healed and that this is already the beginning of the great apostasy? Or is ithat you reduce teh apoc to a mere idealism, and the issue of the Church recognizing when the great apostasy comes will not be known until Christ returns? Or is it something else?

Actually, you misjudge me, spauline. Though I believe the primary interpretation of the book of Revelation is a preterist one, I by no means believe it is the only interpretation. I guess that would make me a *partial *preterist. As far as the definitive End Times go, I believe that *primarily * only the Olivet Discourse and the last two chapters of Revelation directly address it. Almost everything else is pious – and sometimes wild – speculation.

Is it hat you reduce teh apoc to a mere idealism, …

Not at all!

…and the issue of the Church recognizing when the great apostasy comes will not be known until Christ returns?

This is closer to what I believe. We should treat EVERY apostacy as the Great Apostacy, and marshall our prayers and efforts to defeat them.

As far as the Great Apostacy itself goes, we have no way of knowing that the current apostacies that surround us is the Big One. There have always been apostacies, some that even dwarf that of our time, such as the Arian heresy in the 4th – 7th centuries where up to 75% of the bishops turned heretic, and the Protestant “Reformation.” I’m sure Catholics living at that time thought it was the Big One then, too.

As far as private revelation goes, as you well know they are only binding on those who recieve them, even the approved ones. Thus, even though there may be things profitable for Christian living, as a reliable bellweather to interpreting inspired Scripture, including the Book of Revelation they, to me, do not tell us anything we NEED to know that is isn’t already in Scripture and taught by the Magisterium of the Church. In other words, we can take 'em or leave 'em. If an individual finds them helpful personally --good for them. But I’ve seen people that believe in them so fiercely that when they attempt to tie these mesage to Scripture and current events, and get disappointed or even mad when people don’t agree with them, that’s when, in my opinion, the person has wed themselves too closely to these things.

Hope that clarifies things.

 

[spauline]

sorry if I misjudged you, but in a few areas I still see different views between us. don’t have much time to respond, but I’ll keep it short.

first, you use “apostasy” too loosely. I do not agree that Arianism, Muslims, Orthodox, Prots, Deists/Rationalists are FULLY apostate. I suppose we can say that Arianists are pseudo-christian infidels, and Muslims and Deists/rationalists are actual infidels, but Orthodox are not apostate, they are SCHISMANTICS, Prots are not apostate, they are heretics. I have always understood Catholic teaching about the Great Apostasy being a deception that lies of a utopia, not at the expense of SOME truth, but of basically ALL of it. In that vein, we cannot say that the following attacks on the Church spiritually can be considered FULLY against Catholiciism and ALL the truth:

The Christological and Trinitarian Heresies (Islam worst version)
The Great Schism
The Prot Rev
The Enlightenment.

Only in modern times, precisely with ATHEISTIC materialism and RELATIVISTIC HEDONISTIC materialism, do we have an “apostasy” that is FULLY apostate, seeing as these ideologies are the dominating cultural influence in the Eastern and Western European socities respectively. that is, in between full Catholicism (the Seal of God, Rev 7) and full apostasy (the Mark of the Beast), there are GRAY areas. You might consider reading this for a fuller dissertation:

The Seal the Mark and Everything in Between

Secondly, it’s not just a questoin of the Church RECOGNIZING when the great apostasy arrives, but WHY it is the FINAL apostasy, the final near total rebellion against the Gospel. For Christ must first give to humanity the “fullness of the Gentiles” before the great apostsay, what will evidenty be the fullest experience of Christ’s truth and grace within human history, so that at the great apostasy, humanity no longer has an excuse for its sins and, in addition, will be INCAPABLE, in a practical sense, from being restored to faith. That is a deep spiritual and psychological question, and it will evidently be answered by the Church BEFORE (although right before) the Second Coming. Somehow, the answers to these quetions must already lie within Public Revelation, that is, Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.
Or how else do you interpret the CCC reference to the unveiling of the mysterty of iniq. But so then, pure idealism is not enough in the apoc.

i’ll have to be more specific later, don’t have much time.

I’m sorry to have misjudged you otherwise, but I still see some conflict, but I pray that I can stay humble and keep it charitable, as this UNsettled territory.

blessings to you!
scott


ps, I don’;t believe this quite yet the Great Apostsay, I think God can gloriously restore the unity of Christians and the Catholic faith for a great age of peace . I don’t believe this merely from Private Rev. I think there’s considerable basis for it in public rev

 

[alongexpectedpa]

My understanding… and this could be wrong so take it with a grain of salt… is that the war in heaven took place very soon after god created the Angels.

Explaination I have ehard goes something like this,

1. god creates the universe, and all the angels
2. God reveals to them (in heir own beatific vision) his over all plan for man, the universe, and such
3. Since the angels are able to process these things much better and faster than man, almost immediatly, there were angels that couldnt fathom man being above them, especially if they are to be the sinful creatures they are, so the angels that ouldnt understand revolted…

Everyhitn happened though very quickly…

sort of like this…

6:00:00 PM God creates the angels
6:00:01 PM God shares his plan
6:00:02 PM Angels Process the vision
6:00:03 PM Angels Revolt
6:00:04 PM Angels thrown in hell

Again… My understanding could be completely wrong… and correct me if it is… just how i understand it.

In Christ

How do you know any of this? Where is this info from?

 

[catholic1seeks]

When did the war in heaven take place, as in Rev. Ch. 12? It seems like it happened right after Christ’s victory on the cross. Tim

there was a WAR in heaven? O K …

 

[ryanoneil]

12:7-12 is a vignette that gives us the perspective of the heavenly spiritual events that are happening during the earthly events of the rest of the chapter.

v5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne. (earthly perspective)

v11-12 They conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; love for life did not deter them from death. Therefore, rejoice, you heavens, and you who dwell in them. But woe to you, earth and sea, for the Devil has come down to you in great fury, for he knows he has but a short time." (heavenly perspective)

v17a **Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring **(earthly perspective)