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guanophore
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She means that her internal experience as a sexual being is female, yet her body is biologically male.
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sambos671
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Why call Maria a her? Physically maria is a male. Mentally we don’t know if there is a hormonal inbalance or if there is a psychological illness due to abuse or some other thing. The fact that Maria has a boyfriend indicates to me that this person is practicing homosexuality which is a sin. In my mind this person needs healing and restoration which leads away from the sin. A person is not less because they are born with disabilities. However, you note the lengths we go to correct a disability we don’t accept it. Now add the element of sin. People who are disabled do not sin because they are disabled. Yet in maria’s case it does seem to be the case. However, like a person with disability should we accept this sexual “disability” or go to lengths to correct it? The scriptures are clear that Homosexuality is a sin. Also scriptures are clear than men should not be effeminate (wearing and trying to look like women). I don’t think this person should be a spritual leader to children until they have overcome their disability by not participating in the sin aspect of it and are under the authority of Christ despite their feelings and predisposition just like an Alcoholic should not lead a youth group until they have overcome this disease.
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guanophore
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This is debatable about practicing sin. She has said that the relationship is celibate, and the Church defines sin as overt sexual acts. I have proposed that it is an occasion for scandal, and for that reason and the need to be above reproach as a youth minister, I would recommend the principle of expediency be followed in such a case.
For a person called to celibacy like this, it is disingenuous to co-habitate and retain a “girlfriend” or “boyfriend” when one is called to celibacy.
Yes, this is consistent with the Church teaching.
why can’t both things be true? Some conditions cannot be “cured” and must be managed. This is the case with most persons who have chronic conditions such as diabetes. Medicine can do their best to address their needs, but in the end some situations, like Paul’s 'thorn in the flesh" we must accept as our cross to bear in life.
In the passage to which you are referring, the Gk. can also be translated as “weak morals”. I know several effiminate priests who are very faithful to their vows and their ministries. The condition of a persons heart is not judged by their mannerisms and pitch of voice. However, in this case, the appearance that it is acceptable to live in an unchaste relationship is probably one of the triggers to the strong reactions of the parishioners.
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sambos671
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Ok manage it with medication or lifestyle changes. No real issue there. However, living with a boyfriend is not managing it. Its feeding into it.
I believe the best translation is effeminate. Now don’t confuse this with mannerism. I know many men who we call effeminate because of their mannerisms but haven’t done anything wrong. This is not what I think is being spoken off. Cross dressing, publically showing yourself to be a “queen” and the like is closer to what I think is being discussed. Looking like a woman purposely is at issue. I’m certain the Priest you know don’t do that. I believe that to be a sin.
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MariaTS
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Lifestyle changes!? I am not living in a lifestyle of sin.There is no possible way for it to be sin. I live with my boyfriend because I love him. Romantic love, even celibate people have a right to it. There are no medications that can fix any of the problems that I have and I just live with it
I’m not a cross-dresser or a queen, I don’t live my life as female for fun or to get a kick out of it or because I like it. Effeminate originally referred to a submissive homosexual male by the way. I am only looking like a woman purposely because I am a woman. Of course, a priest wouldn’t do this because there are no women priests.
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MariaTS
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I will state this one last time and if people refuse to listen and continue to make assumptions about me then I will simply not respond to them.
I do not support Homosexual Marriage.
I do not support abortion unless the fetus is not alive or it is not a fetus but a tumor that is disguised as a fetus.
I do not support Homosexual Intercourse.
I do not speak about any of the above with young children because it is entirely inappropriate for young children to hear about sexuality from anyone other than their parents. I have said this numerous times and people choose to ignore this and speculate on what I have said or put words in my mouth.
Also, people do not understand infallibility. There have only ever been two infallible things stated in the history of the Catholic Church out of every single thing state by every single pope. Infallibility means that the Pope is never wrong when addressing Dogma of the Catholic Church.
If I do not agree with the Pope then I am still a Catholic.
I do not support Homosexual Marriage.
I do not support abortion unless the fetus is not alive or it is not a fetus but a tumor that is disguised as a fetus.
I do not support Homosexual Intercourse.
I do not speak about any of the above with young children because it is entirely inappropriate for young children to hear about sexuality from anyone other than their parents. I have said this numerous times and people choose to ignore this and speculate on what I have said or put words in my mouth.
Also, people do not understand infallibility. There have only ever been two infallible things stated in the history of the Catholic Church out of every single thing state by every single pope. Infallibility means that the Pope is never wrong when addressing Dogma of the Catholic Church.
If I do not agree with the Pope then I am still a Catholic.
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guanophore
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I just read another post from you that said something to the effect that you live with a boyfriend because you have a right to romantic relationship. If it is right, wholesome and good for two same sexed persons to live together in an intimate romantic relationship, then what is the problem with consummating that physically?
You know, you would not have to engage in so many conflicts with others if you were willing to adjust your language so it is not so inflammatory. It does sound like you get frustrated for people not “listening” and “accepting”, but I think you have having as much a problem with this as anyone else. You have been told repeatedly that, if the fetus is not alive IT IS NOT AN ABORTION. Abortion takes the life of the child. If a person has another medical condition, such as a tumor, in the treatment of which the pregancy is lost
IT IS NOT AN ABORTION. Abortion is always and everywhere wrong. I think if you were willing to adjust your expressions on this point, you would draw less fire.
Why not? If same sex attracted persons have a right to intimate romantic relations, what is the problem?
You do seem to have the personality of a lightening rod.
It sounds to me like it is you that does not understand infallibiliy. Ex cathedra statements are one aspect of the gift, and the gift is not limited to the Pope.
That depends upon the nature and extent of the disagreement. Some of the statements you have made here definitely call into question your Catholicity.
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sambos671
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How are you a woman? I really think this is at issue. How are you a woman? Is your body male? Or are you a hermaphradite? There can be some consideration if you are a hermaphradite. But if it is the case that you are a male. The body of a man. And you’re mind is telling you that you are a woman. Then there is a disorder in the mind be it hormonal, caused by abuse, etc… That is what must be treated. I don’t think its any more appropiate you living with a boyfriend (even celebate) then a heterosexual living with his girlfriend even celebate.
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aspawloski4th
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You obviously do not understand the subject of transsexualism. She is a female trapped in a male body. I sugest reading the book " True Selves" Its very enlightening. The body might be male but her essense , her soul, her mind are female. You can’t judge a book by looking at the cover.
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sambos671
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Nonsense. It sounds like a mind game to me.
Look the body is a biological entity. So is the mind. Because of original Sin these things break down and we have hermaphrodites, sexual disorders, and mental illness.
A soul is a different matter than that. It is spirit based and Jesus told us when we get to heaven we will not be given into marriage and will be like the angels in the sense our sexuality does not matter. So to our souls this is a null argument. Therefore our bodies are entirely biological. If your body is male then you are male. Confusion is born by chemical imbalances, Cultural influence, sexual abuse, and a slew of other things. Period. God obvioulsy intended to have a perfect world when he created the universe and man - male and female. But sin cause biological problems such as hermaphrodites which is understandable. What is not understandable is a Male who thinks he is a woman. That therefore only leads me to the conclusion that there is a disorder working in that person like mental retardation works on its victim. However, people who are MR we help and provide assistance to help them be selfsufficient and live normally as possible. But we don’t say there is nothing wrong. Obviously there is. Now with this disorder, it seems to me that we need to work with that as well. We can’t accept it as it is we should find the root of the problem if its biological if it is not then its about how the person thinks which could be a psychological disorder. I do not buy “I have a woman’s soul”. You have a soul indifferent to the cultural norms. I can buy “I am sensitive more so than I notice other men to be.” Or “I have qualities that can be associated more with the female of my species.” The fact is that happens through all sorts of species but its not a comment on their sexual identity. Maria if not a hermaphrodite is a male that needs help with his mental processes and sexual identity. So Maria as much as you may not like what I have to say I’m sorry you feel that way. However, I have to ask what kind of faith do you have in God? What do you believe about God and why the insistance that everyone accept you as you redefined yourself to be?
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MariaTS
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Because Homosexual, Bisexual, Asexual, and Transsexual individuals are called to celibacy. An intimate romantic relationship does not have to include sexual activity. Individuals like myself are never called to not have a healthy romantic relationship.I just read another post from you that said something to the effect that you live with a boyfriend because you have a right to romantic relationship. If it is right, wholesome and good for two same sexed persons to live together in an intimate romantic relationship, then what is the problem with consummating that physically?
You know, you would not have to engage in so many conflicts with others if you were willing to adjust your language so it is not so inflammatory. It does sound like you get frustrated for people not “listening” and “accepting”, but I think you have having as much a problem with this as anyone else. You have been told repeatedly that, if the fetus is not alive IT IS NOT AN ABORTION. Abortion takes the life of the child. If a person has another medical condition, such as a tumor, in the treatment of which the pregancy is lost
IT IS NOT AN ABORTION. Abortion is always and everywhere wrong. I think if you were willing to adjust your expressions on this point, you would draw less fire.
Why not? If same sex attracted persons have a right to intimate romantic relations, what is the problem?
You do seem to have the personality of a lightening rod.
It sounds to me like it is you that does not understand infallibility. Ex cathedra statements are one aspect of the gift, and the gift is not limited to the Pope.
That depends upon the nature and extent of the disagreement. Some of the statements you have made here definitely call into question your Catholicity.
Perhaps, I have phrased my sentences on abortion in an incorrect way. I should have said that the removal of a deceased fetus or a tumor is not wrong but actual abortion is wrong.
My boyfriend believed me to be a normal female when we first started dating. So, he is an opposite-sex attracted individual, I am a both-sex attracted individual. It is wrong for us to engage in sexual intercourse because it is immoral sin. We are both Devout Catholics and would not violate Catholic Church teaching.
I will take that as a compliment, I do not know what the intention was however.
I use the complete definitions provided by catholic.com, newadvent.org, and the most qualified individuals to speak on the Catholic Doctrine on infallibility.
Many of the statements that I have made have been misinterpreted. My Catholic Faith is in no way challenged.
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MariaTS
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I am deeply saddened by your complete disregard for Biomedical Science. I have the faith that God created me with many gifts. He created me with the gifts of being Disabled, Transgendered, Bisexual, and Intelligent to a degree higher than that of 98% of all Americans. I hold god to the highest esteem. I believe that God loves me and created me as his daughter with many crosses to bear, especially arrogant and ignorant opinions of me. I expect that at the very least Catholics will respect me as who my heavenly father has created me, nothing more, nothing less.
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aspawloski4th
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Where is your authority to speak on gender issues? what are your credentials? Becausee of my own condition I read and studyed up on it from multple sources over a 1/3 or a century’s amount of time. It is a condition where the mind is not congruent or compatable in terms of gender being congruent with the sex of the body. For one minute try getting off the superficial obsession with the physical body. I gave you a name of a book to read, it is in most public libraries. Read it then get back to me or forever hold your peace. you speak on a subject that you have no qualification to speak on.
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LittleSoldier
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Just to clarify here - I think you mean “Catholicism,” not “Catholicity.” “Catholicity” refers to the universal aspects of the Church, such as making its teachings accessible in every nation.
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sambos671
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What qualifications do you have? Reading books by authors who agree with your position and are pushing a political agenda? I assure you I can find books by credential phycisians who disagree with your conclusions about yourself. I admit I’m not a doctor. I’ve worked in the human service field for 10 years, however. I have a graduate education and will be starting doctoral studies soon. I’ve traveled most of the world and have encountered many things. So I’m at least as qualified as you to make a statement on this board. Just because I don’t have the same disorder doesn’t not mean I am not permited to have an opinion based on this subject. And just for the record Maria if you note my entire post, I haven’t neglected biological science. I’m just not in the party that agrees with you nor are many other scientist and physicians. Also note I am male. Through out my life I’ve had meaningful relationships with other males that were not romantic in nature or sexual in anyway. I loved them dearly and continue to do so. However, I am not confused that I am a woman, nor a homosexual, nor a transexual. I am male who can have meaningful relationships with other males without going to the romantic aspect of it. All those things you say about God are true. However, he is also a God of justice, order, morality, and is not comprinising on his stances. He is also a judge. He is both gracious and a judge. I’m not saying that he doesn’t love you or think less of you. He does not think less of you, and as protestants say. “If you were the only human on earth just the way you are now…He still would have become man and offer himself just for you” . I believe this. But I do think he wants you to deal with this problem you have and to let him heal you to be the person he made you to be. You’re soul is not sexual but your body is as is your mind. If, and I must repeat this because no one has answered this aspect of my question, you are a hermaphradite, there are considerations, If not and you are a male entirely except you believe that your brain is feminine then this is a disorder if you have an abundance of estrogen then medication can help you. If you’ve been abused then there is healing, if you have nothing medically that can be pointed out to you then counciling may be helpful. Sexuality is a biological matter not a soul one. I believe you must submit your sexuality to the will of God and be who you are biologically.
On a side note. Though I believe in caring for people and being kind. I don’t think pushing social agenda’s onto the Church is a good idea because I think God has made himself clear in the scriptures and the teachings of the Church. I don’t like the female priest movement. I don’t like the homosexual groups trying to infiltrate positions of prestige in the church and colleges to push their agenda. (these aren’t people who are homosexual and will submit their sexuality to their oath or faith but homosexuals who want wanton practice of homosexual practices accepted). It seems as though there is a conserted effort to have the church turn a blind eye to moral issues to which it has stood firm over the centuries. The Jews did that and the northern kindom is lost to history and the southern kingdom ended up in Exile and finally Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD and historical Judaism is somewhat lost itself. I honestly believe if there are sexual issues in a person then its better if they deny themselves sexuality altogether in order to live rightly.
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guanophore
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I understand. What I am trying to convey is that a person who is called to celibacy does not belong in a romantic relationship. Such relationships are a distraction to the vocation, present near occasions for sin, and are cause for public scandal.
I appreciate your care in this. This is very sensitive language, and when this kind of care is taken, it prevents people from misunderstanding.
This is good, but fostering a romantic relationship is contrary to a celibate call, and can demonstrate living conditions to the congregation that do not present you from being above reproach.
I believe this. Some of this can be avoided with more careful use of language, and some of it by placing your focus differently. If you choose some language out of the NT to describe yourself as an individual, instead of defining yourself to others according to your sexuality, that will help a lot.
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guanophore
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In that case, if you use descriptions for yourself that sound more familiar and acceptable to Catholics, then you will get a better response.
Beloved Child of the Most High God, for example.
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aspawloski4th
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Obviously you have no qualifications When I started studying up on the subject I was in grade school. Not the only subject I studyed for myself, but I don’t think it’s unfair for me to say I am qualified to speak on gender issues. I am also well quallified to speak on other subjects also, examples are antique radios, medieval European history, and conspiracy theories. You obviously can’t separate gender from sexuality, which are mutually exclusive. Gender is identity, and sexuality is what sex or gender you are sexually attracted to. Nothing sexually happened to me as a child, and I do remember my childhood very well. I can remember as far back as just before I turned 3. For the most part I hardly even think about anything to do with sex. Iv’e read up on at least 4 sides of the topic and weighed the evidennce for myself. I have no liberal agenda like you might think, as my strong antiabortion stance, or my wanting to bring back gold backed currency would prove. I’m just a human being who is well learned and read, to know what my condition is. When I started passing kidneystones I read up on that too. I’m not a urologist, but my knowledge about the causes of kidneystones is more current than my genderal practitioners, and even a urologist or two. As long as you think about this subject interms of sexuality and sex your mind will be too clouded to look at the facts.
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sambos671
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See you are being uncharitable. We are in a discussion and there is nothing that you have said to give you any more authority on it that I have. Here is your claim to authority -
. Note I did not claim to have a greater authority than you but I did list my sources: 10 years working in the human service industry on several levels. Direct Care, Case Management, Provider of Benefits, Finally I made the determination on who provided what type of Care to whom. While working in this feild I have become very familiar with the DSM IV. I have spoken to many psychologist as well as psychiatrist. I have writen and participated in Individual Service Plans. I have worked with people in all types of situations. And that is only in the US. To say I have “no” qualifications only shows your militant bias. I’ve mentioned that not only have I an undergraduate degree but a graduate degree and will be working on a Phd. So keeping this in mind with your “reading books since grade school” I find we have equal authority on the subject. Sexuality is a biological function. Gender is based on biological functions. Its all simple biology. Now what your mind believes is a different matter and that is partly a result of your biology and specifically your chemestry as well as other factors. There is no such thing as a male soul or a female soul period. Our male and femaleness eminates from our biology. Our minds are shaped by multitude of factors only one being biological. Note this distinction
and
So as we can see sexuality is a biological function where gender is a social one. Now where the problem comes in is where sexuality and gender roles become confused. Maria a male may be bisexual because of his attraction to male and female members of the species. However, Maria also has an issue with how males are expected to act in the societal referrence of our culture. This is based entirely the thinking of the subject in this case Maria. The thinking is influenced as I said in part by biology and other factors. The fact that God wants us to participate in our gender roles as stipulated in scripture and taught by the Church means that Maria’s paradigm should change into submission to the teachings of the church and scripture. Also because of Maria’s attraction to both Male and Females this sexual preferrence is contra scripture as well where it is made clear that sexual relationships are to be between a male and a female a man and a wife. So it seems to me that when God made the earth and made them “male and female” there was no gender role confussion with sexuality nor was their confussion in their sexuality. So this confussion must have come after the fall which everything has gone wrong. From Viruses to MR to Sexuality and Gender role confussion. So in my mind. Maria is best to remain celebate in both sexual practice and “romantic” endevours because the later is a temptation for the first and thus commit a sin agianst God. This is what scripture teaches. Homosexuality is condemned in both the OT and the NT. Maria is attempting (in my opinion) to circumvent the requirements by saying in effect “Though I am male biologically I should be considered female because I have a preferrence to that gender role in our society. Thus if accepted I can bypass what Scriptures and the Church has taught on this matter on the technicality that I am a woman in spirit.” Which has yet to be proved. Finally, hoping for this type of acceptance Maria can feel free to do what ever he wants despite what scripture says even marrying the man that he loves. Whom he initially decieved because Maria indicated that the man he loves did not know we wasn’t a woman. Thus Maria is a male dressing up like a woman which seems to be the effeminate problem scripture warns about.
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aspawloski4th
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First of all I was going to hold it back, but since you brought it up. I think your attitude is condescending thus uncharitable. While charity is not one of my big issues here, I am only bringing it up in a pot calling the kettle black capicity Since you say the soul does not have gender, fine. Sometime spirit and soul are separated Ill say Maria has female spirit. Sex is between the legs and gender is between th legs. The late Harry Benjamin who is the top authority on transsexual/transgender issues would disagree with you. You are so dog gone focused on physicalness and you use religous platitutudes to hide that superficiality in your thinking. I sugest you don’t lean on scripture so much. After all it is scripture that says personal interpetation of it isn’t allowed ans the Catholic church is not solascriptura. Nurture has proven not to determine femininity or masculinity. In my case if it did, I’d be the most macho thing walking the Earth. In the coming few days Ill find sources. Sorry while my brain is good at rememeber facts and story Iv’e read, it isn’t good at making footnotes in my mind especially if I read it long ago. I’m a degreed meteorologist , but I couldn’t for the life of me remeber specically remember where I read upper air divergence is condusive to low level convection, but I know it well, and no non meteorologist who hasn’t read a thing about weather has any business questioning me on it. What Maria is doing is just to live life as a be accepted as a woman.
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