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miguel
Guest
Because his jurisdiction as Bishop is only in his own diocese.
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Al_Masetti
Guest
Under some circumstances, people in the military come under the jurisdiction of the Military Ordinariat.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
From the Catechism:
The Church’s position is that only the National Authorities have the information and expertise to make the decision about war or peace. Neither the Church nor any individual can claim to be superior in that matter.
Cardinal Ratzinger has said that it is permissible to difffer with the Holy Father on matters of war or the death penalty – but not on abortion.
(My emphasis)
The Church’s position is that only the National Authorities have the information and expertise to make the decision about war or peace. Neither the Church nor any individual can claim to be superior in that matter.
Cardinal Ratzinger has said that it is permissible to difffer with the Holy Father on matters of war or the death penalty – but not on abortion.
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Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello vern,
Is this why Pope Pius XII did not bind the consciences of German and Italian soilders, such as Joseph Ratzinger, to mortal sin, and therefore, if unabsolved, the risk of eternal damnation, for fighting and killing for Hitler? Is this why Pope Pius XII did not warn German and Italian Catholics that Hitler was fighting an unjust evil war? Did Pope Pius XII believe that he did not have the information and expertise that Hitler and Mousoleni had to make a qualified decision as to whether Hitler and Mousolini were fighting a just war for the common good or unjust evil war?
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rr1213
Guest
I think a distinction needs to be made between the justification for engaging in a war (whether it meets the requirements of the Just War concept or not) and the means by which the war is being fought. If a soldier fights an unjust war through just means then I don’t think that there could be moral fault on behalf of the soldier for obeying the civil authority. On the other hand, there very well could be, and probably would be, moral consequences for the civil authority for waging an unjust war.
If what has been posted is true, this Bishop John Michael Botean is doing a great disservice to his parishoners. The Catholic Church is a hierarchial church…someone needs to correct this man.
If what has been posted is true, this Bishop John Michael Botean is doing a great disservice to his parishoners. The Catholic Church is a hierarchial church…someone needs to correct this man.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
I gather you believe you have been appointed to judge Pope Pius XII in this matter? And that your jurisdiction extends to the entire human race?
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miguel
Guest
In that situation, I don’t know if the individual then comes under two jurisdictions (i.e., his home diocese and the Military Ordinariat).
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vern_humphrey
Guest
He comes under the Military Ordinariat – since his “home diocese” is geographically limited. When a civilian leaves New York and goes to Texas, he leaves the jurisdiction of one diocese and comes under another. When he leaves civilian life, he comes under the Military Ordinariat.
The Military Ordinariat is not geographically limited – it exercises its jurisdiction over him, wherever he may be.
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Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello Vern,I gather you believe you have been appointed to judge Pope Pius XII in this matter? And that your jurisdiction extends to the entire human race?
Church leaders unjustly discriminating against America is a greivance we can all condemn as evil. Church leaders saying little when their people, the European Nations, go to unjust evil war against the world in WWII, but then constantly bashing America in Iraq, is a grave injustice. Church leaders binding American Soldiers to mortal sin in Iraq, and thus the risk of eternal damnation of American soldiers souls, but not even mentioning to German and Italian soldiers that they should not fight in Hitler’s henous war, is a grave evil of discrimination against America that we Americans do not have to stand for. If German soldier of Hitlers evil war, Pope Benedict XVI wants to judge and condemn me for speaking out against this evil injustice of discrimination committed by Church leaders against America, so be it.
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miguel
Guest
Makes sense…thank you sir.
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rr1213
Guest
Let me ask what I’m sure is a stupid question, but an honest one. This Bishop in Ohio…what ability does he have to pronounce that something is a mortal sin? Isn’t this something that would be determined by the Magisterium as a whole? If something isn’t a mortal sin per Catholic teaching, but this bishop (or any bishop other than the Pope) then declares it to be a mortal sin, Catholic doctrine wouldn’t accept it as being a mortal sin, would it?
In any event, somebody in the Church should do something about this. Can you imagine the anguish of families in his diocese who have lost sons or daughters fighting in Iraq? Can you imagine a grieving mother, a devout Catholic, hearing the bishop make this pronouncement? It is as bad, or worse, than that idiot who calls himself a Christian who shows up at military funerals and yells to the family “your son is burning in hell”. Probably worse, because nobody takes that fellow seriously, while the faithful in the Bishop’s diocese are supposed to look to that man for spiritual guidance.
In any event, somebody in the Church should do something about this. Can you imagine the anguish of families in his diocese who have lost sons or daughters fighting in Iraq? Can you imagine a grieving mother, a devout Catholic, hearing the bishop make this pronouncement? It is as bad, or worse, than that idiot who calls himself a Christian who shows up at military funerals and yells to the family “your son is burning in hell”. Probably worse, because nobody takes that fellow seriously, while the faithful in the Bishop’s diocese are supposed to look to that man for spiritual guidance.
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Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello rr1213,
I agree with you.
Worse yet, what if some American Soldiers burn in hell for all eternity due to Bishop Botean’s Apostolic Binding? Or if a troop supporter burns in hell for all eternity due to Bishop Botean’s Apostolic Binding. Remember, Bishop Botean bound those in his diosease who support the troops also. Especially when German and Italian soldiers from Hitlers unjust war, the most evil unjust war in human history, were not even bound like this.
When Jesus gives the power to bind and to loost, he gives it to not only St. Peter (the Pope), but all the Apostles (the Bishops), as I read it in John 20:20. What do you think?
Bishop Botean thinks He has the Christ given power to bind American soldiers and troop supporters to mortal sin. Bishop Botean is calling upon Jesus and using this power to bind souls to sin. Will Jesus see Himself as bound, by His sworn oath to the Apostles, to bind as an Apostolic Successor Bishop Botean is calling upon Him to do so? I do not see how Jesus, unless the Pope overides the Bishop, can not do what He has given His sworn oath to Apostolic Successors He will do.
In any event, I agree with you, Jesus put St. Peter in unequaled authority over the other elleven Apostles. The Pope, St. Peter’s Successor, has a duty to reprimand and overide Bishop Botean’s unjust Apostolic Binding on American troops and the troop supporters in his diocease.
**NAB JOH 20:20 **
At the sight of the Lord the disciples rejoiced. “Peace be with you,” he said again. “As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” Then he breathed on them and said: "Recieve the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men’s sins, they are forgiven them; if you hold them bound, they are held bound."**Romanian Catholic Statement Against War With Iraq, **
**by John Michael Botean, ****Bishop of the Romanian Catholic Diocese of St. George in Canton, Ohio **
any direct participation and support of this war against the people of Iraq is objectively grave evil, a matter of mortal sin.
I am speaking to you solely as your bishop with the authority and responsibility I, though a sinner, have been given as a successor to the apostles on your behalf. I am speaking to you from the deepest chambers of my conscience as your bishop, appointed by Jesus Christ in his Body, the Church, to help shepherd you to sanctity and to heaven. Never before have I spoken to you in this manner, explicitly exercising the fullness of authority Jesus Christ has given his Apostles "to bind and to loose,"
Quoted from: jonahhouse.org/boteanRCbishop.htm
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Augustine22
Guest
That’s a really fascinating point, Merton. Never thought of it! A mind bender. And your right about Sudan, too. Why didnt anyone seem as riled about that? The holocaust was heinous but its heinous wherever things like that happen, too.
But I don’t want to gloss over Lebanon. It looks like a lot of innocent Christians were killed there when Israel went in. Was it Sudan? No. But it wasn’t right either imo.
But I don’t want to gloss over Lebanon. It looks like a lot of innocent Christians were killed there when Israel went in. Was it Sudan? No. But it wasn’t right either imo.
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rr1213
Guest
I don’t think that the exact same thing can be a sin in one diocese and not a sin in a neighboring diocese. The resulting patchwork of contrasting doctrine would appear to me to be the very same sin that Catholics accuse Protestants of in our multitude of fractured unity. The Church is supposed to be the Body of Christ, not a conglomeration of individual fiefdoms. This is not what Christ intended. Nonetheless, it would still be nice to see someone from the Vatican take this fellow down…
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vern_humphrey
Guest
Just for the record, I happen to be an American soldier – retired now, but with considerable combat experience. And I certainly don’t subscribe to your rant.
You are dead wrong, and your screed dishonors American soldiers.
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miguel
Guest
I think this is right on.
Why? If he’s correct that the US war in Iraq is an unjust war, then he’s also correct to assert the immorality of participation in it. Unjust wars are murder. The shepherd of a diocese has the authority and responsibility to teach and to clarify moral issues for his flock. Is this bishop out on a limb? Here, it’s appropriate to review the Church’s criteria for “legitimate defense by military force”
catholic.com/library/Just_war_Doctrine_1.asp
…and to point out that 2 popes were against the US invasion of Iraq on the grounds that it was not carried out as a last resort.
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Legal_Eagle
Guest
Is Iraq a “just” war? Cardinal Ratzinger didn’t think so. See below. Also you can follow this link.
ratzingerfanclub.com/justwar/#ratzinger
Cardinal Ratzinger [Pope Benedict XVI]
Relevant Citations:
Cardinal Ratzinger Says Unilateral Attack on Iraq Not Justified - Gives Personal Opinion; Favors Decision from U.N. Zenit News Service. Sept. 22, 2002.
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger does not believe that a unilateral military attack by the United States against Iraq would be morally justifiable, under the current circumstances.
According to the prefect of the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith – who acknowledged that political questions are not within his competence – “the United Nations is the [institution] that should make the final decision.”
“It is necessary that the community of nations makes the decision, not a particular power,” the cardinal said, after receiving the 2002 Trieste Liberal Award. His statements were published Saturday in the Italian newspaper Avvenire.
“The fact that the United Nations is seeking the way to avoid war, seems to me to demonstrate with enough evidence that the damage would be greater than the values one hopes to save,” the cardinal said.
He said that “the U.N. can be criticized” from several points of view, but “it is the instrument created after the war for the coordination – including moral – of politics.”
The “concept of a ‘preventive war’ does not appear in the Catechism of the Catholic Church,” Cardinal Ratzinger noted.
“One cannot simply say that the catechism does not legitimize the war,” he continued. “But it is true that the catechism has developed a doctrine that, on one hand, does not exclude the fact that there are values and peoples that must be defended in some circumstances; on the other hand, it offers a very precise doctrine on the limits of these possibilities.”
Interview with Zenit.org May 2, 2003:
Q: Eminence, a topical question that in a certain sense is inherent to the Catechism: Does the Anglo-American war against Iraq fit the canons of a “just war”?
Cardinal Ratzinger: The Pope expressed his thought with great clarity, not only as his individual thought but as the thought of a man who is knowledgeable in the highest functions of the Catholic Church. Of course, he did not impose this position as doctrine of the Church but as the appeal of a conscience enlightened by faith.
The Holy Father’s judgment is also convincing from the rational point of view: There were not sufficient reasons to unleash a war against Iraq. To say nothing of the fact that, given the new weapons that make possible destructions that go beyond the combatant groups, today we should be asking ourselves if it is still licit to admit the very existence of a “just war.”
ratzingerfanclub.com/justwar/#ratzinger
Cardinal Ratzinger [Pope Benedict XVI]
Relevant Citations:
Cardinal Ratzinger Says Unilateral Attack on Iraq Not Justified - Gives Personal Opinion; Favors Decision from U.N. Zenit News Service. Sept. 22, 2002.
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger does not believe that a unilateral military attack by the United States against Iraq would be morally justifiable, under the current circumstances.
According to the prefect of the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith – who acknowledged that political questions are not within his competence – “the United Nations is the [institution] that should make the final decision.”
“It is necessary that the community of nations makes the decision, not a particular power,” the cardinal said, after receiving the 2002 Trieste Liberal Award. His statements were published Saturday in the Italian newspaper Avvenire.
“The fact that the United Nations is seeking the way to avoid war, seems to me to demonstrate with enough evidence that the damage would be greater than the values one hopes to save,” the cardinal said.
He said that “the U.N. can be criticized” from several points of view, but “it is the instrument created after the war for the coordination – including moral – of politics.”
The “concept of a ‘preventive war’ does not appear in the Catechism of the Catholic Church,” Cardinal Ratzinger noted.
“One cannot simply say that the catechism does not legitimize the war,” he continued. “But it is true that the catechism has developed a doctrine that, on one hand, does not exclude the fact that there are values and peoples that must be defended in some circumstances; on the other hand, it offers a very precise doctrine on the limits of these possibilities.”
Interview with Zenit.org May 2, 2003:
Q: Eminence, a topical question that in a certain sense is inherent to the Catechism: Does the Anglo-American war against Iraq fit the canons of a “just war”?
Cardinal Ratzinger: The Pope expressed his thought with great clarity, not only as his individual thought but as the thought of a man who is knowledgeable in the highest functions of the Catholic Church. Of course, he did not impose this position as doctrine of the Church but as the appeal of a conscience enlightened by faith.
The Holy Father’s judgment is also convincing from the rational point of view: There were not sufficient reasons to unleash a war against Iraq. To say nothing of the fact that, given the new weapons that make possible destructions that go beyond the combatant groups, today we should be asking ourselves if it is still licit to admit the very existence of a “just war.”
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mlchance
Guest
And others have a different opinion.
IOW, the Cardinal’s personal opinion in Sep '02 was that unilateral military action wasn’t justified by the then current circumstances. That seems fair.
But there was no unilateral military action, nor did the circumstances about which the Cardinal were aware in '02 account for all the circumstances. Hence the emphasis on personal opinion.
Again, note the emphasis. Also note the unfortunately naive endorsement of the U.N., key members of which opposed invading Iraq at the same time they were receiving millions of dollars in illegal kickbacks from Saddam Hussein.
Again, this is personal opinion, not doctrine. How many nations comprise a community, BTW? The U.S. did not act against Iraq unilaterally. Several allied nations provided a variety of support.
But then there’s those kickbacks.
Neither is it necessarily contrary to Just War Doctrine, which doesn’t require that agents responsible for the prudential judgment about waging war wait until after something very horrible has been done.
Note the importance of the bolded portion.
There’s personal opinion posing as fact. The large majority of those actually responsible for the prudential judgment pertaining to waging war disagreed.
– Mark L. Chance.
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Legal_Eagle
Guest
Look…You can dance all around it. You can play with the language. You can nitpick the Bishops’ statements. You can even find at least one American theologian (George Weigel) who will give you an out.
Nevertheless, the simple fact of the matter is that the overwhelming majority of Catholic Bishops, including the Holy Father (John Paul II) as well as the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (Cardinal Ratzinger) and the president of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (Bishop Wilton Gregory) were, and remain, opposed to the invasion of Iraq. Pope John Paul II even went so far as to send Cardinal Pio Laghi to urge President Bush not to invade.
You want to substitute your own judgment for that of the Magistrium with respect to what constitutes a “just” war? Fine. You want to take the opinion of one single theologian over that of the Pope, the Cardinal who has the responsibility of protecting the orthodoxy of the entire Chruch, and the president of the U.S. Bishops conference? OK. Just be honest enough to admit that that’s what you’re doing.
Nevertheless, the simple fact of the matter is that the overwhelming majority of Catholic Bishops, including the Holy Father (John Paul II) as well as the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (Cardinal Ratzinger) and the president of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (Bishop Wilton Gregory) were, and remain, opposed to the invasion of Iraq. Pope John Paul II even went so far as to send Cardinal Pio Laghi to urge President Bush not to invade.
You want to substitute your own judgment for that of the Magistrium with respect to what constitutes a “just” war? Fine. You want to take the opinion of one single theologian over that of the Pope, the Cardinal who has the responsibility of protecting the orthodoxy of the entire Chruch, and the president of the U.S. Bishops conference? OK. Just be honest enough to admit that that’s what you’re doing.
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rr1213
Guest
Did the wars waged by the Papal States qualify as “just wars”?
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