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kenofken
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It’s not an issue of what my parents chose to do. I don’t fault them for doing what they thought best, and what needed to be done to keep the family peace in those days. I’m not even upset about a Catholic upbringing as such. They gave me some wonderful moral reasoning tools I used to great advantage in discovering my own path. No, it’s the church’s insistence on retaining me as a member in disregard of my own free will that I consider to be a grotesque violation of my conscience. It is no different than if I were to appropriate your name for a use on a Planned Parenthood membership list, and used your name to further the organization’s goals and to raise money, and then ignored your demands to have your name removed. You’d be more than a little upset I think.
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cyberwolf001
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You can do an act of formal defection, but believe me it is like pulling teeth. The RCC HATES that -1 on there membership roles that causes especially these days.
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kenofken
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I actually did formally defect. But ironically that doesn’t make you a former Catholic in their eyes, just a poor one…
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cyberwolf001
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Well at least your off there membership roles. As for once a Catholic always a Catholic, well they also say they are the one true faith don’t make it right.
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latin_rite
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I wouldn’t worry too much about the book. None of the spells are real. True paganism died out many years ago. It fell under the sword of the one true faith. If the 10 yr old doesn’t suffer from some mental illness, he will realise the nonsense of such books. The book only contains a hodgepodge of childish gibberish made up by some ron l hubbard of the 1900’s. I can do the same. Iggaley piggaly boo. bats wings and crows beak… See i just made a spell that will make me the greatest player on modern warfare two. Sad thing is…That spell i just made up has as much legitimacy as any of today’s “pagans” spells.
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colliric
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You cannot be de-baptized, you can be excommunicated but that is very rare for obvious reasons(involving Jesus teaching on forgiveness). The church keeps a record on who has been baptized, who has been confirmed and who has been married, taken holy orders, etc. This does not mean you are a practising catholic, but obviously they cannot remove your information from the records for various reasons both legal and religious. It is the same for a governmental record… I don’t feel comfortable with the Tax Office, Welfare/job-search office, Police, Defense or other governmental organisations(such as the Birth, death and marriage registry) holding all my recorded information, including private companies who have delt with me(Banks, Schools, Employers, Doctors… the list goes on and on). But the fact is they do, mostly without my permission. It is a reality I must accept.
Once again, this does not mean the church considers you a currently practising catholic, but rather that you had been raised in the Catholic Religion, this is a record they are required to hold, not just for the church’s own purpose, but because they are often required to do so by religious Law(as in laws concerning religious faiths that are written by secular governments).
And it is very diffrent because I was never baptized or confirmed or Married by Planned Parenthood, so it is EXCEPTIONALLY diffrent because they are not legally required to hold my recorded information…
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kenofken
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It’s somewhat more complex than this. I don’t have an objection to them maintaining a record of the fact of my baptism. It happened. In fact when I defected, they were decent enough to amend my baptism record to say “defected on such and such a date”. At least they say they do this. So far as I know, the act of defection/apostasy also puts me under penalty of excommunication, although it’s the self-incurred kind, not the public sort of legal pronouncement used for rogue bishops etc.
What’s bizarre and what sticks in my craw is the fact that they have a process where they formally acknowledge you’re not a member, but then in canon law, you still are. In their eyes I’m as bound to all of the same obligations as any sincere Catholic. The only exception they used to make until very recently was that you were exempt from the church marriage forms. Not anymore. Now if you defect, you become the only category of human on the planet whose marriage is not considered valid by the church. If you’re protestant or born pagan or Muslim or a mass murderer, your marriage is good. If you’re an “ex-Catholic,” you’re no longer eligible for the sacrements, but you’re obligated to receive them if you want a valid marriage.
All very academic, I grant you, as almost none of us care one way or the other, but it’s sort of odd and disrespectful to assert authority over someone who never made an informed choice to join your religion.
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latin_rite
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If he doesn’t care. Why does he complain? Seems like someone is trying to martyr themselves. If a bunch of “wannabe pagan” said my marriage was void. I wouldn’t care. Wait that’s comparing apples to oranges. The Church is a faith. Where as paganism is well…YOu know
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cyberwolf001
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So is there any reason you have resulted to slinging insults? I’ve noticed when many posters find themselves unable to give a good response to a statement by a Non-Catholic they resort to slinging insults. It seems the goal is to provoke the Non-Catholic into doing or saying something hat would cause the Non-Catholic’s post to be deleted or the Non-Catholic to be banned from the board.If he doesn’t care. Why does he complain? Seems like someone is trying to martyr themselves. If a bunch of “wannabe pagan” said my marriage was void. I wouldn’t care. Wait that’s comparing apples to oranges. The Church is a faith. Where as paganism is well…YOu know
To be fair some types of Catholics especially the Ultra-Liberal and the Traditionalist also get this treatment.
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AngelRS
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Thanks for the headsup.
Too often people brush off the sorcery angle as fairy tales but we all know it’s not and not all that is promoted as fiction really is just that. Fact: there are evil forces and people who use them and would like to seduce others into using them, starting out with just what seems innocent and fun.
Children’s bibles and books teaching them about the faith can not be compared to books that teach children how to use the same tools that some enemies of God favour.
Too often people brush off the sorcery angle as fairy tales but we all know it’s not and not all that is promoted as fiction really is just that. Fact: there are evil forces and people who use them and would like to seduce others into using them, starting out with just what seems innocent and fun.
Children’s bibles and books teaching them about the faith can not be compared to books that teach children how to use the same tools that some enemies of God favour.
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latin_rite
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Well. If you could point out the insult i’ll apologise…
And how does one give a good response to what one thinks is nothing more than practice. Which resembles role play of one’s fav movie? Modern “paganism” is a joke. Well, considering it followed by adults makes it rather sad. I do respect all religions. But what is passed as paganism today is hardly a religion. That’s my opinion. I’m not going to apologise for it. I’m not trying to get anyone banned. I’m just stating my point of view.
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colliric
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wait, what? were you formally told not to come into the church anymore?
By the way the Church doesn’t consider Protestant Marriages valid unless it’s a Protestant-Catholic marriage and the catholic has received approval/dispensation, and/or the ceremony itself is the Catholic form performed by a Priest(but this is actually not always the case if dispensation is given).
I think you seem to be talking to me mostly from simply having high emotions over something I don’t believe you can express in this forum, because these assumptions are not correct according to canon law and any priest who says otherwise(for example that the church considers Muslim marriage valid) would be gravely mistaken.
Aslo do you understand that the church does not strike your name from the records formally because it is a tenant of faith that you can actually go to a priest and request confession or other form of penance(reconciliation) and then you will be considered a practicing member again. It is not that your history is erased like you seem to desire(you are just not considered a practicing catholic), but it is in fact leaving the door open for you if you decide in your future that you are sorry for what you did and commit reconciliation.
And certainly, if you have not been told your are formally excommunicated, self-incurred exclusion from the church’s sacraments is reparable by partaking in penance, often requiring the sacrament of Confession.
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kenofken
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If the Church is inherently such a superior faith, you would think it wouldn’t need to use funny accounting rules to swell it’s membership ranks. You wouldn’t need to rely on cultural inertia and infant baptism to get them in the club and you wouldn’t feel the need to count tens of millions of defectors as your own either. If you really had the complete and undebatable truth on your side, you’d easily get those 1.3 billion members the old fashioned way - by informed choice.If he doesn’t care. Why does he complain? Seems like someone is trying to martyr themselves. If a bunch of “wannabe pagan” said my marriage was void. I wouldn’t care. Wait that’s comparing apples to oranges. The Church is a faith. Where as paganism is well…YOu know
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latin_rite
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So the church leaving breathing space, in case someone realise they want to come back, is cooking its books? If a child runs away from home. Should a parent lock their doors to that child forever? Should that parent then go around telling everyone it has no children? They would be a very bad parent if they did. Wouldn’t you think?
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colliric
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Ok so you seem to think the church is like a rich Golf Club? It doesn’t want it’s membership to realise it’s not as cool a sport as it once was? so it does anything and everything to get members? am I right?
I’ve got news for you… it’s not… it’s not Golf and it’s not about a sport…and it doesn’t do everything at all.
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celticsfan1983
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Can we change the title of this thread to “Two people bickering and arguing in public instead of privately messaging each other?”
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cyberwolf001
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I think this is a bad analogy. Keeping a record is one thing. Continuing to say this person is one of us is another entirely.
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kenofken
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You’ve got it more or less right, though I wouldn’t cast it in the light of trivial country club prestige. Numbers matter. Numbers are power. You’d better believe the pope and bishops like being able to tell politicians they speak for 1.3 billion people and not, say, half or one third of that, the numbers that the church internally considers to be “real Catholics” based on adherence to doctrine etc. In some countries, membership numbers translate directly to tax dollars the state collects on behalf of the church.
Yes, I think the church has a very rational incentive for downplaying or papering over the sizeable gap between official numbers and the real number they speak for. Only about a third of Catholics in America attend Mass on even a weekly basis. A more telling figure is that one in 10 adult Americans are people who have left the church. It’s certainly disingenuous to count them in. The bit about “we’re just holding the door open” won’t do either. I mean it’s a nice gesture, but potential reverts are not the same as members. If you get divorced, it’s true you can’t go back in time and erase the fact of the marriage. It’s also true that you might hold out hope for reconciliation, but in the meantime you can’t count that person as your spouse for tax purposes, medical benefits, what have you.
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colliric
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I think you have made some interesting points there finally. The earlier posts you made were full of blind emotion, This is an interesting point. However I have found that most religions can do that. I know it’s certainly done by the Anglican’s too and most other protestant faiths. The Pentacostals are notorious for “cooking the books” in my country, especially the Hillsong group who got wacked with an investigation by the Tax office into what happened to the money they claimed was used for charity work.
Ususally unfortunatly it is done out of generalisation or approximation, and the government usually understands that. I mean other than if the church took world wide survey of the 1.3 billion they would surely come out with an accurate figure of numbers of practising catholics, but it is a very large and costly survey and I’m not sure if it is useful considering most Governments already know as you do, that the church has far less actual practising catholics than that number. The Government is not that unintelligent, and you do not give them enough credit.
Thank you for responding to my posts, but we have now made this thread off it’s original topic, so lets return to that.
Ususally unfortunatly it is done out of generalisation or approximation, and the government usually understands that. I mean other than if the church took world wide survey of the 1.3 billion they would surely come out with an accurate figure of numbers of practising catholics, but it is a very large and costly survey and I’m not sure if it is useful considering most Governments already know as you do, that the church has far less actual practising catholics than that number. The Government is not that unintelligent, and you do not give them enough credit.
Thank you for responding to my posts, but we have now made this thread off it’s original topic, so lets return to that.
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