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Joe_5859
Guest
Absolutely. Same here.
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spunjalebi
Guest
No apologies needed! I can understand the knee-jerk response and yes it can come across as dismissive and short-sighted. I personally have learned to take certain things with a grain of salt. I used to be offended by the DaVinci Code and once vocalized my views to my FIL (who is Catholic) and he plainly told me “you gotta have a little bit of everything to make the world go round.”My apologies. It wasn’t my intent to single anyone out with that comment or make an accusation. It was just my general, knee-jerk response to seeing that phrase.With all the “DaVinci Code”/“Harry Potter”/“Golden Compass”/etc. discussions I’ve seen, I’ve developed an aversion to it. I even started a thread about it once upon a time. I see now that I could have articulated myself better.
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Whitacre_Girl
Guest
I agree. It becomes easy to dismiss things we don’t like as “sinful.” I mean, afterall, if we don’t like it then it must be morally bankrupt, right?
I say this only because it was something I used to be prone to doing. Thankfully I have started to catch myself and right the wrong I committed as a result.
But I don’t care what anyone says: Twilight is pure evil. I mean, anything that bad HAS to be right?!?!
Kidding, kidding!
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3DOCTORS
Guest
I agree - and in fact, there was one Protestant book about Harry Potter which basically gave the same idea. Just as some people can drink alcoholic beverages without sinful/negative consequences, others cannot, and those would be wise to abstain. And some would argue that alcoholic beverages are evil, and others would say they are morally neutral if used with discretion.
Twilight is fun to me . . . second teenagehood brain candy . . . I don’t take it seriously anymore than I take your comment about it, Whitacre_Girl!
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Whitacre_Girl
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woo-hoo!Twilight is fun to me . . . second teenagehood brain candy . . . I don’t take it seriously anymore than I take your comment about it, Whitacre_Girl!
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Portrait
Guest
Dear PatriceA,
Cordial greetings.
As regards the HP novels, it is important to remember that not all Catholics, or others for that matter, who feel compelled to critique these books and to appraise them unfavourably intend to insinuate that the devotees of the series are inferior. However, in the interests of fair play the case for the opposition should be heard and its spokesmen accorded respect, otherwise they too might just feel inferior when they are dismissed as reactionary and unworthy of a hearing. In any event, if the pro-Potterite is wholly convinced that his case is unanswered and unanswerable then clearly he has nothing whatsoever to fear from the opposing viewpoint, which in any case he deems to be irrational and based upon opinions that have supposedly been shown to be wrong time and time again. Thus the zealous defenders of HP would seemingly then have no reason to be on the defensive as they seemingly have the most cogent case, yet they frequently are.
It is very common in public debates for the critics of HP to be labeled ‘wide-eyed fundamentalists’, often by those who ought to know better. The fact is that several respected Catholic commentators including Gabreile Kuby, Steven Wood, Vivian Dudro and Matthew Arnold have offered well-grounded criticisms respecting the defects of these culturaly unwholesome books. Thus it would be a mistake to assume that any man who resists and censures the Potter phenomenom must be suspected of being a slightly dippy and unintelligent fool. Nothing could be further from the truth.
For me and myriads of other Catholics the chief problem with Potter is not that it is fantasy literature, but rather Rowling’s symbol world of the occult as her primary metaphor and occultic activities as the engine of her plots. If this was not bad enough, she presents these to the young reader via attractive role model’s, Harry and Hermoine, who are students of witchcraft and sorcery. Now many good people are of the opinion that this is just too close for comfort and the desperate attempt to minimize and rationalize the unmistakable correlation between Potter’s magic and witchcraft and its real life counterpart is wholly unconvincing, notwithstanding some specious argumentation. Indeed, it is the striking resemblance between the two that so many Catholics find problematic and disturbing, especially when it is remembered that Rowling’s primary target group for her books are impressionable young people who’s minds are still in a state of formation. Therefore, many parents think it perfectly reasonable to ask if they can really afford to take the totally unecessary risk of stimulating their child’s interest in the occultic subcultures. As I have remarked frequently in these dabates on Potter, even one precious soul lost to the occultic subcultures is one precious soul too many; what if it were our child?
Those of us who are parent’s are called by our Church to be pro-active in fostering a vital Christian culture for our offspring. Thus anything that frustrates this noble objective (books, TV and films, rock and pop music and computer games with unsavoury content must surely be firmly repudiated if we value the souls of our children). Contrary to what some misguided people may think, this has nothing to do with being overscrupulous or with being an over protective moralistic fuddy-duddy (although we could do with a few more them among the faithful nowadays!), but it does have everything to do with rearing our dear children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord and sheilding them from those subtle harmful influences that could lead them away from the path of virtue - perhaps permanently. Would any parent worth their salt want that upon their consciences?
It may not be fashionable to say this, but the Harry Potter books/films are insiduously brainwashing our children with the moral illiteracy and relativism that now abounds in the Western world. Many Catholic parents fully concur with all I have said but are afraid to say so in case they are branded “cranks” or “kill-joys” by friends or relations. Some are even worried that their teenage children will “turn against them” and accuse them of being “mean” if they try to stop them from reading Potter books or watching the films. So for the sake of a peaceful home they do not make waves by asserting their rightful parental authority. What a very sad world we live in that mere children can influence parental decision making! Let us pray that parents are given the courage to do the right thing and to act with integrity, regardless of the consequences
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
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Whitacre_Girl
Guest
Have you personally read all 7 books?
I have. And I’ve seen all movies released to date.
The books are based off of mythologies of other cultures, not occult practices in the slightest. The only thing that comes remotely close is the “art of divination” as it is calle din the books, and it is completely frowned upon and made a mockery.
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PatriceA
Guest
Yes, what a sad world we live in when parents can’t say no to their children, I agree. BUT, that is a problem with the parents as a whole and I would say that that problem will still exist even if Harry Potter was taken out of the mix. In fact, the Harry Potter books is last thing they should be concerned about.
If you want people to respect that your opinion of Harry Potter is something you wouldn’t want your children to read, then you need to respect that other very faithful Catholic parents have also reached the opposite decision. I am a parent, I do my research and homework and this debate has been around for YEARS. I’ve heard it all. But the one thing that always brings me into the debate is when one side insists that the other side is a lousy Catholic and/or parent. Nobody should be demeaned for reaching the decision they have concerning this book, either side.
Just for the record, I don’t care for the series. But that’s my personal taste. My daughter prefers other books, she hasn’t shown an interest in HP. If she did, I would not be afraid to let her read them because I have informed myself as a parent and came to that conclusion.
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BlueShadow123
Guest
First of all, if Palin was in office, she would have to be taken seriously and that is scary!*Palin is not to be taken seriously and I understand your view on her. However, as a Catholic can you honestly say that Obama is a good choice given that he is not pro-life, finances abortion and has not used the taxpayers money very honestly.
Cinette*
Shes just— well lets, not go there. But shes not the brightest person out there.
And I would much rather have obama over palin. Not that she would be president, but if something happened to Mccain, who is quite old, we’d all be in for it.
I understand you don’t agree with certain things about obamas stance, but thats life.
You will never agree with everything about a president. Nobody will. there will always be likes and dislikes about a president.
Also too, obama doesn’t actually ‘promote’ abortion. He is just going to keep it legal. There is a difference.
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Portrait
Guest
Dear Whitacre_Girl,
Cordial greetings.
No I have not read a HP novel nor have I seen any of the films based upon the books - I have no desire to read such mind polluting and culturally unhealthy material. Given that the whole course of this life is a state of probation, I wish to redeem what time I have wisely and use it profitably by way of preparation for the next life.
The fact remains that there is incontrovertibly a close parallel between Potter’s magic and witchcraft and its real life counterpart and it is that close resemblance which is most disturbing and problematic, especially since the books chief target audience is young children who’s minds are yet in a state of formation.
Were you aware that Father Gabreile Amorth, the chief exorcist of the diocese of Rome, has admonished parent’s against the HP books in an inteview with the ANSA news agency? He quite bluntly said that “Behind Harry Potter hides the signature of the king of darkness, the Devil”. Moreover, he said that many of the ideas expressed in the books were from the realm of darkness, that they contain innumerable positive references to magic, “the satanic art”, and attempt to make a false distinction between black and white magic, when in point of fact no such distinction exists because “…magic is always recourse to the Devil”. He further censured the disordered morality presented in Rowling’s works, which he decidedly believes reinforce moral relativism. What he does not say is that “the books are based off of mythologies of other cultures”.
The usual pro-Potterite response is to say that Father Amorth is not an expert in fantasy literature and hence is not in a position to appraise the books. Nevertheless, his area of expertise does surely allow him to easily indentify that which is evil and satanic; Father Amorth does not need to be well tutored in the fantasy fiction genre to be able to access whether or not the novels contain references to the “satanic art”, for that clearly is his forte. To those who would retort by saying that he is just voicing his opinion and not uttering infallible Church teaching, I would say by way of reply, that the Vatican has never disowned or denounced his opinions on Potter, so evidently it cannot consider them extreme or outrageous.
However, it not merely the occult issue that is problematic, but the disturbing fact that they blur the lines between good and evil (thus conveying a morally relativistic outlook). The Potter novels are basicly a relativistic product of our relativistic age; such ignoble works could only ever be written and only enjoy such popularity in superficial and morally bankrupt times like our own, which are witnessing the ever increasing paganization of culture.
My heart truly weeps for today’s youth and the emerging generation behind them, for they deserve so much better than balderdash like Harry Potter.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
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Melissa
Guest
The problem here is that criticism of the novels comes in essentially two flavors. Flavor one is “it’s poorly written” or “I don’t like it”. There’s no answer for that, and there’s no need for an answer for that, as it can just as easily be argued that they are well-written novels (even if they aren’t “literary”) and if the only concern were whether the novels are well-written or not, there would hardly be the number of threads that have been spawned on the subject. I believe both sides on that flavor understand and agree that de gustibus non est disputandum.
Flavor two … well, unfortunately for those who want to make these arguments, most of the criticism is based on misrepresentation of the contents of the novels, if not outright falsehoods about the content. Make a case without resorting to falsehood, misrepresentation, or irrelevancies (such as citing all the Scripture passages against witchcraft while ignoring the fact that the equation between the fictional world of HP and the witchcraft condemned in scripture is a false equation). At most, one can make the case that some children (and adults) should not read the novels. I’m not even going to argue against a parent who wants to forbid the novels from his child(ren) because he is concerned about the potential deleterious effects on his particular child(ren). At the same time, however, I do not intend to sit by and let false statements/misrepresentations go unanswered.
And many other Catholic parents fully disagree with all that you said in the previous post and use their rightful parental authority to permit reading of the novels and/or watching of the films. Do not assume that those who have come to a different conclusion are not doing the right thing or are not acting with integrity, nor has their decision-making been unduly influenced by the children.
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Portrait
Guest
Dear PatriceA,
Cordial greetings and thankyou for your courteous response.
Although we must agree to differ, may I just say that I appreciate your fairness and balance.
It is not always the parent’s who are at fault, sometimes their children are not above using manipulative emotional blackmail in order to get their own way and it can be extremely difficult sometimes not to buckle under the pressure. However, you are quite correct PatriceA, this problem would exist even if there was no HP because we are now witnessing youth insubordination on an unprecedented scale, due largely to a lack of firm parental and school discipline and trendy misguided notions about child rearing, which became popular in the 1960’s and 70’s.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
pax
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PatriceA
Guest
Just what kind of people are you socializing with in real life that you think that things are as bad as you are making it out to be? Maybe I live a very sheltered life, but most of the families I see and youth I’ve worked with at church do not display “manipulative emotional blackmail”. Most have very good relationships with their parents and seem to be fine young men and women. Sure, there are a full examples of bad behavior, but I think you are really insulting the youth of today.
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Fone_Bone_2001
Guest
Welcome back to the Church! God bless you and your husband.
I humbly suggest that if your passion and enthusiasm for your new faith is to apply in any way to the Harry Potter series, it ought to apply through praise and love of what Rowling as achieved.
If you go to amazon.com, you can look up and read reviews of the book How Harry Cast His Spell by John Granger, who tackles the question of why these books have become so popular. He shows how they’re actually very Christian - thematically, structurally, and in terms of imagery and character development - and have very positive moral and spiritual themes.
If we were to compare Lewis, Tolkien, and Rowling - all Christians, of course - this is what I’d say:
While none of these authors’ fantasy writings are allegorical, the Narnia books are the most explicitly Christian, since they’re Christian both thematically and in terms of the plot (since Aslan is Christ in another world…)
The Harry Potter books are the second-most explicitly Christian, since they’re as spiritually, symbolically, and thematically Christian as the Narnia series (although for an older age group), but there are no direct/literal plot connections on the scale of the Aslan/Christ connection.
Finally, The Lord of the Rings is very Christian in its themes but is the least heavy-handed about it.
That’s just my opinion, but I’m pretty sure it’s right. If you want an explanation for why I think Harry Potter is actually closer to Narnia than Lord of the Rings is in terms of Christian content, I’d be happy to give examples - and so would John Granger in his book.
Rowling even felt it necessary to explain in a documentary after Deathly Hallows came out that she was not actively trying to convert her readers to Christianity with that seventh book. That’s how strong the Christian elements are.
But this objection has been refuted time and time again. I think you too should take a look at John Granger’s book, How Harry Cast His Spell, in which he explores precisely what accounts for the series’ enduring popularity.
Occultic activities are not the engine of her plots, in short, because there are no occult activities in the books. The type of “magic” used, literarily speaking, is of the same kind as, say, Caspian blowing Susan’s horn to summon aid in Prince Caspian, not of the occult kind.
But there is no such correlation. Occult activities are qualitatively unlike Harry Potter “magic.” I just saw the film version of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix on tv last night, and I was struck during the Dumbledore/Voldemort duel just how obviously fantastical and absolutely dissimilar Harry Potter “magic” is to the occult: nothing in the real world lets you shoot lightning at each other from sticks.
I agree completely. That’s why Christian opposition to Harry Potter is so tragic: because the books have precisely the opposite effect. They’re unmistakably Christian, in fact, in their themes, structure, imagery, and character development.
I understand that you don’t want to read a HP book or watch a film - since you find them so nasty - but you really should pick up John Granger’s book. He’s a very thoughtful, well-educated, and perceptive eastern Orthodox Christian, and a literary scholar himself.
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Fone_Bone_2001
Guest
Look, I realize you’re sensitive about the derision often heaped on Harry Potter opponents, but you can’t expect to be taken seriously if you persist in blatant falsehoods. There is no similarity between anything real and the “magic” of the Harry Potter world. Even if a child did believe that HP was real by mistake, he’d know not to try magic - in the world of Rowling’s novels, ordinary people like you and I are utterly, completely incapable of “magic” of any kind.
Of course there’s no distinction in real life. But don’t you remember that the Chronicles of Narnia make this distinction, too? I just reread Prince Caspian, and though I don’t have the book with me at the moment, I distinctly recall a passage in which the good guys contrast white/good magic and black magic.
Why don’t you have a problem with the Narnia series?
Here’s another thing I remember from watching the movie of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix last night: a certain character explicitly stated that the ends justified the means. You know which one said that? Dolores Umbridge, a despicable villain whose views and actions the reader is led to despise and revile.
Not exactly pro-relativism, is it?
Apparently he does, as the “magic”-based criticisms of Harry Potter apply equally well to the Chronicles of Narnia, but no one seems to have a problem with those. It’s a double standard. But Father Amorth, who probably deals with supernatural evil all the time, most likely has a good excuse to be a little paranoid.
We do not.
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noclevername
Guest
It’s the same ole same ole. People are going to find the most popular thing of the moment and inject evil into it where there is none. Just think, if people really shouldn’t watch HP because of magic, then kids should never see a Disney movie, read any fairy tales, learn mythology in school, etc.
People, there is this thing called IMAGINATION!!! Everyone needs to use it. All HP does is enhance that skill. Nothing would be invented if people couldn’t imagine it.
People, there is this thing called IMAGINATION!!! Everyone needs to use it. All HP does is enhance that skill. Nothing would be invented if people couldn’t imagine it.
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Cinette
Guest
Oh my gosh. This is like saying “It is said that perhaps millions of Catholics use birth control, are pro abortion, voted for BO and SEND THEIR KIDS TO PUBLIC SCHOOLS (or) ALLOW THEIR CHILDREN TO GO TRICK OR TREATING (or) PREFER THE NO MASS OVER THE LATIN MASS (or) AREN’T A PART OF THE CHARISTMATIC RENEWAL (or) ARE A PART OF THE CHARISMATIC RENEWAL.”
They *are *called “Cafeteria Catholics.”
Enjoying and thinking that the Harry Potter books are harmless is not in any way shape or form descenting from any Catholic doctrines or dogmas. No one is picking or choosing anything. Every Catholic is allowed to take and apply the teachings of the Catholic Church and make their own moral judgment over whether or not they’re going to read or allow their children to read the Harry Potter books. There is no universally set morally correct answer to this one. Both sides have their own points and reasons for drawing such conclusions.
*You make a good point.
The truth is I should not be on this thread at all. I have always had a natural aversion to anything like that. At school when my friends were fascinated with the Wiji board (spelling?) I laughed it off. I have always turned my back on the occult and anything like that because it didn’t interest me.
You may have a good point about Harry Potter.
About Cafetaria Catholics though, they are a reality. You can’t be Catholic and pro-choice for example. You either believe what the Church teaches or find another religion. One sees so many so-called Catholics in American politics who do not follow the teachings of the Church and who vote the wrong way. They are a bad example and do not do the Church any good.
A big hug
Cinette
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Whitacre_Girl
Guest
Well, it’s going to be hard to have discourse about a book you have never read, or a movie you have never seen. Given that I have read the books, and you have not, your arguement that the book parallels witchcraft is based purely on heresay. I have read the book and affirm that it does not. I base that on interactions with the primary sources – not hearsay. Also, given that you have not read the books, I hardly think you can qualify them as trash by your own authority.
Were you aware that Father Gabreile Amorth, the chief exorcist of the diocese of Rome, has admonished parent’s against the HP books in an inteview with the ANSA news agency? He quite bluntly said that “Behind Harry Potter hides the signature of the king of darkness, the Devil”. Moreover, he said that many of the ideas expressed in the books were from the realm of darkness, that they contain innumerable positive references to magic, “the satanic art”, and attempt to make a false distinction between black and white magic, when in point of fact no such distinction exists because “…magic is always recourse to the Devil”. He further censured the disordered morality presented in Rowling’s works, which he decidedly believes reinforce moral relativism. What he does not say is that “the books are based off of mythologies of other cultures”.
Are you aware that the Vatican newspaper has applauded the Potter films for their moral character?
I retort that the rest of the church states it is just fine, including the Vatican newspaper. One man doesn’t speak for the whole unless than man is the pope. And if this book was so horrible that it was destroying our youth, I think he’d come out against or or not allow the vatican newspaper to applaud and reccomend the books and films to catholics.
Again, coming from someone who hasn’t even read the books…
Again you haven’t read the books. I am also willing to bet you’ve never engaged in the occult in a real way. I used to be a pagan. I also have read the books since becoming a christian. I affirm in all truth that the books:
- Do not promote occultism and are in fact mocked by people involved in the occult.
- Promote a clear sense of right and wrong, with only the villians of the books stating (and I quote) “There is no right, or wrong. There is only power.” and “In this case the ends justify the means” two ideas that are utterly condemned by the church. The novels themselves speak for a clear sense of right and wrong in an age when right and wrong are being blurred by this relativism you claim it preaches.
Again, you haven’t read the books. You haven’t seen the movie. You’ll forgive me when I can’t take seriously your appraisal of the book based on hearsay. I, however, have read the books. They are rich literature, and promote morality in an age where relativism runs rampant. There are far worse things we should be weeping about as catholics.
Back at you.
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Whitacre_Girl
Guest
Don’t forge thte Chronicles of Narnia!! THe magic and pagan references in that are destroying america!
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BlueShadow123
Guest
you know, you’re right.
I think JK Rowling is the devils daughter.
How dare she make books about magic. Because you know, itll make kids turn into wizards and before you know it, we’ll be seeing our kids flying to school on brooms. Last thing we need is our kids casting REAL spells on us.
We all know that if our kids watch harry potter, when we come home, we’ll see owls flying everywhere, goblins casting spells, and the candles floating above the ceiling. Because you know, all those things would really happen if they were to watch the movies.
Oh the horror!
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